[BurlyShirley]

Mostly I want to adress the idea of free will and what that really means.

Ask a christian if God is all-knowing, and they will say "yes, of course". Now, does all-knowing include "knowing the future"? Well, given the definition of "all" we sort of have to say yes. So, if god knows before I am born, which choices I am going to make, and that I am going to end up in hell, how is it that life is a test and I am allowed to exist if there is already a conclusion written that god can see?

I dont get it.

 

[Silver]

Mostly I want to adress the idea of free will and what that really means.

Ask a christian if God is all-knowing, and they will say "yes, of course". Now, does all-knowing include "knowing the future"? Well, given the definition of "all" we sort of have to say yes. So, if god knows before I am born, which choices I am going to make, and that I am going to end up in hell, how is it that life is a test and I am allowed to exist if there is already a conclusion written that god can see?

I dont get it.

BS, meet John Calvin. Mr. Calvin, BS.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Also, if some people are put on this earth to "test you" or they are "controlled by the devil" are they not, by definition, not acting of their own free will?


And who john calvin?

 

[-BB-]

LOL...

If god is all powerful, can god make a burrito so hot that even HE can't eat it?
(simpsons?)


It is all Symantics Burly.

 

[Toshi]

And who john calvin?

haha. try google. might also want to try "martin luther" for good measure

 

[biggins]

Also, if some people are put on this earth to "test you" or they are "controlled by the devil" are they not, by definition, not acting of their own free will?


And who john calvin?

and with that if we are all gods people why are some controlled by satan?

 

[BurlyShirley]

haha. try google. might also want to try "martin luther" for good measure

i know who martin luther is. i dont feel like googling tho.

 

[binary visions]

biggins, Burly... I'm not a religious person, but if these two questions are all you are basing your religious beliefs on - (i.e. "I don't believe in God because..."), then I don't know what to say...

If you're just trying to start a discussion, there is little to discuss. "If God is all-powerful, why doesn't He stop evil things from happening?" "Can God make a rock so heavy that He can't lift it?"

Don't you have any more probing questions than these? There is an excellent, scholerly resource in this forum (Andyman), but circular questions such as these do not serve as interesting discussion points.

 

[N8 v2.0]

What really irks me is the when I hear some GUBA* says something like; "God sacrificed his Son for us" or "Jesus died for you"...

I have a problem seeing just where God made this huge sacrifice. I mean Jesus is God and God can't die then what's the big deal. Not only that but since Jesus rose from the dead is at Gods side now, it's not like God is really giving up anything.

Consider, if you will, your child. If your child dies (parish the thought), they are not coming back ever. There may be a chance you might see them in the here after assuming several things; 1. there is a hereafter, 2. you both wind up in the same place etc...

Now, if a person like you and me sacrificed our child so that the rest of mankind could live forever (assuming you'd want to do that) then that's a genuine sacrifice that I could buy into if so inclined.



*GUBA - Growing Up Born Again

 

[Silver]

If you're just trying to start a discussion, there is little to discuss. "If God is all-powerful, why doesn't He stop evil things from happening?" "Can God make a rock so heavy that He can't lift it?"

The rock question is kind of stupid, but the problem of evil is not exactly something trivial.

 

[BurlyShirley]

biggins, Burly... I'm not a religious person, but if these two questions are all you are basing your religious beliefs on - (i.e. "I don't believe in God because..."), then I don't know what to say...

If you're just trying to start a discussion, there is little to discuss. "If God is all-powerful, why doesn't He stop evil things from happening?" "Can God make a rock so heavy that He can't lift it?"

Don't you have any more probing questions than these? There is an excellent, scholerly resource in this forum (Andyman), but circular questions such as these do not serve as interesting discussion points.

That's not the same thing. I have a ton of questions, but if you read, you'd see I was attacking the idea of the christian god and free will. The two are mutually exclusive as demonstrated and therefore ONE of them must be incorrect. Its not a trick question.

 

[Westy]

My theory is that humans are incapable of understanding the true concept of god unless there is really no such thing, so it is pretty much useless for us to discuss it unless we want to talk about the nothingness of god.

 

[Ridemonkey]

How is it you subscribe to an array of nonsensical conservative issues without being one of Gods devoted followers?

 

[Silver]

That's not the same thing. I have a ton of questions, but if you read, you'd see I was attacking the idea of the christian god and free will. The two are mutually exclusive as demonstrated and therefore ONE of them must be incorrect. Its not a trick question.

If there's no god, then we may not have freewill either. The jury's out on that one as well.

 

[-BB-]

The rock question is kind of stupid, but the problem of evil is not exactly something trivial.

They are the same... if you change the wawy you look at God.

I look at him/it as taking more of a passive roll.

Also, Good and Evil are both human constructs, as what may seem good to one person may be evil to another.

 

[BurlyShirley]

How is it you subscribe to an array of nonsensical conservative issues without being one of Gods devoted followers?

like what?

 

[Changleen]

I'm with Burly on this one. The ideas of the christian/any other mainstream religion's gods are clearly flawed in many ways.

With regard to the 'evil' thing, what is 'evil' anyway? Evil is simply a human concept that we use to describe things that are not convenient to the furthering of our personal (or group) goals. It doesn't 'exist' on a cosmic level, it's all in our heads. As so much of the belief in various god is wrapped up in the flawed concepts of good and evil this is just another reason to discount them as the outmoded ideas that they are.

 

[-BB-]

My theory is that humans are incapable of understanding the true concept of god unless there is really no such thing, so it is pretty much useless for us to discuss it unless we want to talk about the nothingness of god.

Well said.


And it only took me 12 years of Catholic school and a Jesuit college to figure that out.
Actually, I figured it out before then, but sill like the education these institutions provided.

 

[-BB-]

I'm with Burly on this one. The ideas of the christian/any other mainstream religion's gods are clearly flawed in many ways.

With regard to the 'evil' thing, what is 'evil' anyway? Evil is simply a human concept that we use to describe things that are not convenient to the furthering of our personal (or group) goals. It doesn't 'exist' on a cosmic level, it's all in our heads. As so much of the belief in various god is wrapped up in the flawed concepts of good and evil this is just another reason to discount them as the outmoded ideas that they are.

Uh-oh... I agree with Changleen!!

 

[N8 v2.0]

How is it you subscribe to an array of nonsensical conservative issues without being one of Gods devoted followers?

That's what you get for stereotyping conservative people.

 

[N8 v2.0]

Uh-oh... I agree with Changleen!!

Aww crap... too....


Oh the horror! litwrists:

 

[Changleen]

Uh-oh... I agree with Changleen!!

That's becuase I'm always right. No question about it.

j/k

 

[Andyman_1970]

Don't you have any more probing questions than these? There is an excellent, scholerly resource in this forum (Andyman), but circular questions such as these do not serve as interesting discussion points.

Yeah "rock" questions are "right out", however the freewill thing is rather intersting. I have some quotes from some rabbi's at home I'll share a little later. However "my door is always open" with regards to questions.

BTW - BV thanks for the props...............

AlexisDH may have some insights from the modern Jewish perspective (Christianity after all was a sect of Judaism).

 

[MTB_Rob_NC]

Interesting topic.... I will add my $0.02 from my experience. I went to a Catholic Graduate School. As part of my enrolment I was required to take a religion and philosophy class, along with "world religions" (that was a great class btw). Anyway back to the Phil & Religion class. 30% of the grade was on a research paper. The subject had to be the relevance of a philisophy/er/religion throughout history. I was a perfect student here, so I went for the gusto and did a paper on the "Relevance of God" throughout history..... The gist of the paper, supported by evidence was...
That the role of God, or what human society views as "God" continues to be depleted. The paper basically started its timeline in Greek then Roman Empires where there was a god for everything that was not understood, day/night, ocean etc etc, then continued using examples of how the knowledge of science or the use of government reduced "God's" role in society. If I remember correctly I went all the way up until the space programs of the US and USSR found themselves being protested in their early years for flying into (or rather) disproving that "heaven" was an actual place.

It boiled down to ...

My theory is that humans are incapable of understanding the true concept of god unless there is really no such thing, so it is pretty much useless for us to discuss it unless we want to talk about the nothingness of god.

Or that "God" is just the answer to the unknown.

I kinda got in a little hot water at first for the paper, but after debating the actual merits of the paper as apposed to my beliefs, in front of the Dean, I got an A.

 

[Andyman_1970]

I dont get it.

If we in our finite minds could "get" and infinite creator of the Universe, He wouldn't be much of God would He?

 

[Changleen]

If we in our finite minds could "get" and infinite creator of the Universe, He wouldn't be much of God would He?

On a slighly different tack, why does the creator of the universe (assuming that there is one - which we'll go with for now) have to be some 'infinite' being? What does that even mean? Isn't some sort of progenitor race more likely?

 

[Westy]

On a slighly different tack, why does the creator of the universe (assuming that there is one - which we'll go with for now) have to be some 'infinite' being? What does that even mean? Isn't some sort of progenitor race more likely?

I know the question was directed to Andy but on the same lines of your question why do most assume that said creator still exists? If I were to start a religeon from scratch it seems to me that there was some kind of "thought out plan" for creation but no proof that said creator has had any influence or cares to influence creation since the begining, assuming that there was a begining.

 

[Andyman_1970]

On a slighly different tack, why does the creator of the universe (assuming that there is one - which we'll go with for now) have to be some 'infinite' being? What does that even mean?

Infinite meaning He had no begining or end, His Name (YHWH) means essentially "I am" or "always will be" kinda thing.

Isn't some sort of progenitor race more likely?

Only if your Mormon..............

 

[N8 v2.0]

If we in our finite minds could "get" and infinite creator of the Universe, He wouldn't be much of God would He?

So if 'god' is so incomprehensible, what's the point and why exactly would be care about each and every human more so than say.... a rock or a fish for example???

 

[Westy]

So if 'god' is so incomprehensible, what's the point and why exactly would be care about each and every human more so than say.... a rock or a fish for example???

Well man was created in his image so he can't be incomprehensible because we kind of know what he looks like. Sorry, I'll shut up now.

 

[Changleen]

I know the question was directed to Andy but on the same lines of your question why do most assume that said creator still exists? If I were to start a religeon from scratch it seems to me that there was some kind of "thought out plan" for creation but no proof that said creator has had any influence or cares to influence creation since the begining, assuming that there was a begining.

Current Science seems to suggest there is a 'starting' point for our universe as we understand it, so it seems reasonable to assume that something initiated that start, or else the universe is in some way cyclic? Even if it is cyclic, does it not seem likely that the cycle itself had to be brought about at some point?

I would agree that this supposed 'creator' obviously doesn't give a monkeys about the inhabitants of this universe - which leads me to think that the universe itself must serve some kind of function for someone. Maybe we're just the particles in the explosion in some vast extra-cosmic heat engine...

Andyman, do you believe that humanity is the only life in the universe?

 

[Changleen]

Well man was created in his image so he can't be incomprehensible because we kind of know what he looks like. Sorry, I'll shut up now.

No, don't. Good point. Which is it Any? Incomprehensible or..not?

 

[N8 v2.0]

Well man was created in his image so he can't be incomprehensible because we kind of know what he looks like. Sorry, I'll shut up now.

So if we owe our good looks to god then perhaps he's the source of other things as well. Emotion for example. We know that god 'loves' and 'hates'... This make god less than perfect in my mind.

I think we'd be much better off with a god that shares none of our emotions which are one of our greatest weaknesses.

 

[-BB-]

So if 'god' is so incomprehensible, what's the point and why exactly would be care about each and every human more so than say.... a rock or a fish for example???

Because it is polite?

Because you would want others to do the same?


Although it was jesus who said it, there is only one law.
"Treat others as you would have them treat you."

Or "Be Exelent to each other... and party on DUDES!!"
(Bill and Ted)

 

[Changleen]

Infinite meaning He had no begining or end, His Name (YHWH) means essentially "I am" or "always will be" kinda thing.

Another aspect of the traditional definition of god which I find hard to swallow. Nothing we've yet discovered is apparantly anything like infinite. In fact, I think the concept of infinity is just that - a concept. I can lump it in there with good and evil. A useful conceptual tool, but you should be aware that it is dangerous to actually apply it absolutely in any situation for fear of distorting your view of reality.

Only if your Mormon..............

Come on, you can do better than that! Seriously, you must have considered this, right?

 

[MTB_Rob_NC]

Although it was jesus who said it, there is only one law.
"Treat others as you would have them treat you."

Well that doesn't work, givin the evil people in the world now does it?

 

[-BB-]

So if we owe our good looks to god then perhaps he's the source of other things as well. Emotion for example. We know that god 'loves' and 'hates'... This make god less than perfect in my mind.

I think we'd be much better off with a god that shares none of our emotions which are one of our greatest weaknesses.

Everything you read was written by a person, and uses language, which is inherently flawed and limiting. The way the brain works is to associate new things with other things that are known... thus we have to put bounds on "god" in order to conceptualize what it is.

 

[Changleen]

So if we owe our good looks to god then perhaps he's the source of other things as well. Emotion for example. We know that god 'loves' and 'hates'... This make god less than perfect in my mind.

I think we'd be much better off with a god that shares none of our emotions which are one of our greatest weaknesses.

Good point. Fortunatley for us, god doesn't intefere on a daily basis, and apparantly only has done so in 'biblical' (or torah/koran etc - I'm gonna use biblical as a blanket term from now on) stories, whose authenticity is obviously questionable at best.

 

[Westy]

Current Science seems to suggest there is a 'starting' point for our universe as we understand it, so it seems reasonable to assume that something initiated that start, or else the universe is in some way cyclic? Even if it is cyclic, does it not seem likely that the cycle itself had to be brought about at some point?

I would agree that this supposed 'creator' obviously doesn't give a monkeys about the inhabitants of this universe - which leads me to think that the universe itself must serve some kind of function for someone. Maybe we're just the particles in the explosion in some vast extra-cosmic heat engine...

Andyman, do you believe that humanity is the only life in the universe?

This is something I have actually been reading up on lately and maybe I just have not gotten to that chapter yet but modern theory can model things back to a certain point. Before this point all known theories break down to a point to where they can only say, "we have no freaking idea". Similar to what we know about what goes on past the singularity of a black hole, basically time/space as we know ceases to exist, but something exists.

So basically there could have been stuff happening before what some would call the begining, maybe not, so far there is no way of telling and may never well be.

 

[Changleen]

Well that doesn't work, givin the evil people in the world now does it?

You mean, 'people with agendas in conflict with my own'? Or are you of similar beliefs to $tinkle?