[limitedslip]

Looking for any comments here about feasibility or the best options.

Our company is looking at a new aircraft, and I'm convinced it could do very well for guided bike tours (think heli-biking, but cheaper). The problem is loading bikes into the thing. It's normally a 10 seat aircraft, 5 rows of two including the pilot. Seats can be taken out in minutes, so the plan would be to take out two rows of seats and take 5 passengers and 5 bikes (the same as an AS350 helicopter). Here's a pic:

The only dimensions I have:
Cabin Height .......................................................... 44.9 in (1.1 m)
Cabin Width ........................................................... 50 in (1.3 m)
Cabin Door (width) ............................................................. 50 in (1.3 m)

I will still need to check if two rows taken out will fit a bike long-ways.

Is it possible to load 5 bikes standing up side by side with 50 inches of width? Would it be better to lay them flat with large pieces of foam between them? As long as we can keep the loading under 10 minutes it should be fine, but these will be random bikes, possibly without quick release front wheels, 29ers, etc.

Here's a couple pics of a GA8 with a couple bikes loaded. The GA10 will be the same but with a stretched fuselage and an extra row of seats. It has the same dimensions as above.

 

[dan-o]

The advantage of helos is that they can drop you onto a small area on top of a mountain.
How many DH trails have landing strips at the top (unless women are along for the ride?).

I see this making sense for bike touring/point to point xc, but seeing how this in the DH forum, it seems useless for what I think of re: helo biking.

 

[jonKranked]

hello biking, this is heli biking

 

[HardtailHack]

Roof rack mounts.

I have no idea but I think it's a good idea.

 

[yd35]

Roof rack mounts.

I have no idea but I think it's a good idea.

At first I laughed because I imagined the racks mounted on top of the plane. Bad idea. Then I realized that you could mount them inside the plane. Good idea.

 

[Jm_]

The interiors of the GA-8 are pretty massive for the class of aircraft, which is great. I'd imagine the issues are the same as anytime you try to put bikes in a tight space, damage to the bikes and damage to the vehicle. Foam might be a good idea "in between", but if this operation is done I'm sure you'll rip/puncture the interior over time and have to make some repairs, probably nothing huge, but it's usually good to count on.

Does your company have a 135 certificate? If they operate aircraft already I'm assuming they do. They also need "combi" authorization.

The main issue is probably cargo-securing in accordance with the 14 CFR regulations, which can be done, just requires the proper use of straps and nets.

 

[limitedslip]

Roof rack mounts.

I have no idea but I think it's a good idea.

I have heard there's a guy operating (illegally) somewhere mounting bikes under the wings of a C206. It apparently works alright but to do it legally would be a fortune in regulatory costs.

 

[limitedslip]

The interiors of the GA-8 are pretty massive for the class of aircraft, which is great. I'd imagine the issues are the same as anytime you try to put bikes in a tight space, damage to the bikes and damage to the vehicle. Foam might be a good idea "in between", but if this operation is done I'm sure you'll rip/puncture the interior over time and have to make some repairs, probably nothing huge, but it's usually good to count on.

Does your company have a 135 certificate? If they operate aircraft already I'm assuming they do. They also need "combi" authorization.

The main issue is probably cargo-securing in accordance with the 14 CFR regulations, which can be done, just requires the proper use of straps and nets.

We have a 135 certificate running C206s and C172s. What's "combi" authorization? We're in New Zealand but the regulations are based on the FAA's.

I'm mostly concerned about the windows getting scratched. I suppose we could put some masonite or other protection over the rear windows in some quick release fashion.

 

[limitedslip]

The advantage of helos is that they can drop you onto a small area on top of a mountain.
How many DH trails have landing strips at the top (unless women are along for the ride?).

I see this making sense for bike touring/point to point xc, but seeing how this in the DH forum, it seems useless for what I think of re: helo biking.

Our advantage over the helicopter would be greater range for the same cost.

Most of the heli-biking here is not DH but all-mountain riding, probably because the market is bigger for that, and a real DH run is too short for a single helicopter drop-off. But since DH bikes are popular even on trail rides, we can assume people are going to bring DH bikes so it makes sense to plan on having to put them in the plane.

We have one potential DH track with 4.5k feet of elevation drop that we may be able to do multiple runs on, but mostly it will be 'epic' trails. There are a lot of old crop-dusting strips on the tops of mountain ranges within a half-hour's flying from here. And there are some epic trails like the Otago Rail Trail that we could provide transport for.

 

[dan-o]

Cool, I should've known you're from the Land of Awesome (NZ).
Sounds great and I'd hit it should I ever make it there on a bike trip.

 

[Samoto]

sounds awesome with NZ landscape!

 

[FarkinRyan]

Tyax Air in the Chilcotins here in British Columbia comfortably gets 5 passengers, a pilot and 5 trail bikes into a DeHavilland Beaver floatplane which is, from the photos at least, smaller than the plane your company is looking at.

For a 5 man trip the wheels come off, frames are stacked next to each other top-to-tail and wheels are pretty much squeezed in wherever they will fit between / on top of frames. Packs and helmets go into the float, everyone loads up and you're off. Apparently if you're flying with less than a full complement of passengers you don't even need to take rear wheels off. Interior is set up with the frames and wheels beside and behind the rear passengers with cargo netting for security to the best of my recollection.

 

[Jm_]

We have a 135 certificate running C206s and C172s. What's "combi" authorization? We're in New Zealand but the regulations are based on the FAA's.

I'm mostly concerned about the windows getting scratched. I suppose we could put some masonite or other protection over the rear windows in some quick release fashion.

Well, in the US you have to be authorized to take passengers, cargo, or both(referred to as "combi"). Depending on the airplane and type of operation, it may be allowable. I'm not sure your rules are exactly the same as the FAAs, but our operations are authorized through "operations specifications". The issue about "masonite" is where you have to be real careful. Here in the US, you can't just go modifying an aircraft, ANYTHING that is attached to it or modified has to be certificated/approved to not interfere with the operation and structure. I'd imagine the CAA(?) in NZ works the same way. There is some relief for certain things like go-pro mounts, but more than often people do it wrong and what they attach to their airplane, whether inside or outside, is not allowed. This always has to be run through the FAA certificate management team, to ensure the right steps are taken.

In any case, it should be pretty cool to do this. Helicopters are nice for getting to the top of a mountain...when you are at the mountain, but their range is pathetic and they are extremely inefficient. The Airvans are starting to show up in other places now and they seem like a good product.

 

[limitedslip]

Tyax Air in the Chilcotins here in British Columbia comfortably gets 5 passengers, a pilot and 5 trail bikes into a DeHavilland Beaver floatplane which is, from the photos at least, smaller than the plane your company is looking at.

For a 5 man trip the wheels come off, frames are stacked next to each other top-to-tail and wheels are pretty much squeezed in wherever they will fit between / on top of frames. Packs and helmets go into the float, everyone loads up and you're off. Apparently if you're flying with less than a full complement of passengers you don't even need to take rear wheels off. Interior is set up with the frames and wheels beside and behind the rear passengers with cargo netting for security to the best of my recollection.

What does top-to-tail mean? Are they concerned about the bikes scraping each other or getting damaged?

 

[limitedslip]

Well, in the US you have to be authorized to take passengers, cargo, or both(referred to as "combi"). Depending on the airplane and type of operation, it may be allowable. I'm not sure your rules are exactly the same as the FAAs, but our operations are authorized through "operations specifications". The issue about "masonite" is where you have to be real careful. Here in the US, you can't just go modifying an aircraft, ANYTHING that is attached to it or modified has to be certificated/approved to not interfere with the operation and structure. I'd imagine the CAA(?) in NZ works the same way. There is some relief for certain things like go-pro mounts, but more than often people do it wrong and what they attach to their airplane, whether inside or outside, is not allowed. This always has to be run through the FAA certificate management team, to ensure the right steps are taken.

In any case, it should be pretty cool to do this. Helicopters are nice for getting to the top of a mountain...when you are at the mountain, but their range is pathetic and they are extremely inefficient. The Airvans are starting to show up in other places now and they seem like a good product.

For the moment we're holding off on investing in a new plane until some regulatory matters are settled around here with regards to part 125 and part 139. Looks like we're leaning towards a caravan though depending on the outcome, which would mean that we'd need to use the dirty ol' 206s for any bike transport. We'll figure out a way to make it work.

 

[buildyourown]

We got 5 bikes and 5 people into a Dehavilland Beaver. That is a much smaller plane.
All the wheels came off and you were expected to have them off when it was time to load.
Packs went in the floats.

 

[Jm_]

I did a test-load in the back of a C172 and C182, frames fit fine with wheels off and the rear seats removed.

 

[rideit]

 

[bdamschen]

The advantage of helos is that they can drop you onto a small area on top of a mountain.
How many DH trails have landing strips at the top (unless women are along for the ride?).

I see this making sense for bike touring/point to point xc, but seeing how this in the DH forum, it seems useless for what I think of re: helo biking.

Completely useless for transporting bikes but I still wanted to post this because it was cool:

 

[FarkinRyan]

What does top-to-tail mean? Are they concerned about the bikes scraping each other or getting damaged?

One frame faces towards the front, the next one faces the back. Allows you to get the frames closer to each other without the handlebars banging against each other. As for damage, that would be more down to how precious the bikes owners are I think and I personally couldn't care less about my bike getting a few nicks and scratches from transport. A couple of thick blankets or towels work for separating frames from each other in those situations though.

 

[limitedslip]

This is the ideal set up, by Adventure Flights Golden Bay. I mentioned that it was illegal before but they do have CAA approval for it. They are mounted on old bomb racks, so the pilot has a release switch to drop the bikes if needed.

Anyway we got rid of our 206 and got a GA8 airvan, with another one on the way in the next two months. I doubt we can get bomb racks fitted to ours, but I'll be looking into it.

 

[jonKranked]

They are mounted on old bomb racks, so the pilot has a release switch to drop the bikes if needed.

 

[kidwoo]

Well I guess that makes sense.

 

[Westy]

Mount tri-bikes horizontally with a proper angle of attack to produce lift. Kick the owners out at altitude because they brought tri-bikes.

 

[canadmos]

Are 26" wheels more aerodynamic than 27.5 or 29?

 

[Jm_]

This is the ideal set up, by Adventure Flights Golden Bay. I mentioned that it was illegal before but they do have CAA approval for it. They are mounted on old bomb racks, so the pilot has a release switch to drop the bikes if needed.

Anyway we got rid of our 206 and got a GA8 airvan, with another one on the way in the next two months. I doubt we can get bomb racks fitted to ours, but I'll be looking into it.

Yeah, people that authorize hokey-a$$ **** like that piss me off, especially when others are trying to play by the rules. I guarantee they don't have engineering data for that modification, which is what needs to happen.

185s do have a massive useful load though. The problem likely there (as with here) is all the modifications adding up to the airplane and how it ends up pretty far from the intended manufacturer's configuration with lots of stuff that has never been tested together.

Congrats on the GA8s, they are still working pretty well here. A few little issues, but it's a great utility aircraft. Seats are kind of easily damaged and not meant to be taken in and out like some of the Cessna products, but still, it's a solid airplane. Nice cruise and gph ability and the crash worthiness is off the charts compared to cessnas and nearly everything that was designed 50 yrs ago.

 

[Westy]

Roof rack mounts.

I have no idea but I think it's a good idea.

Just have to watch for vertical clearance when pulling into the hanger or when flying through the Dairy Queen drive through.

 

[Tom Ritchey's Moustache]

Mount tri-bikes horizontally with a proper angle of attack to produce lift. Kick the owners out at altitude because they brought tri-bikes.

Would never get off the ground. You forgot to factor in ego weight.

 

[limitedslip]

Yeah, people that authorize hokey-a$$ **** like that piss me off, especially when others are trying to play by the rules. I guarantee they don't have engineering data for that modification, which is what needs to happen.

185s do have a massive useful load though. The problem likely there (as with here) is all the modifications adding up to the airplane and how it ends up pretty far from the intended manufacturer's configuration with lots of stuff that has never been tested together.

Congrats on the GA8s, they are still working pretty well here. A few little issues, but it's a great utility aircraft. Seats are kind of easily damaged and not meant to be taken in and out like some of the Cessna products, but still, it's a solid airplane. Nice cruise and gph ability and the crash worthiness is off the charts compared to cessnas and nearly everything that was designed 50 yrs ago.

Can't speak to what CAA did to authorize it.

The GA8s are a fantastic machine for what we do, although they suck in turbulence. We are definitely going through more sick bags. They glide far better than a 206/207 which isn't hard as 206s glide like a greased anvil. Crash worthiness is fantastic and the airplane is idiot proof so their should be less crashes anyway.

We had a demo flight last year where we were loaded at least at MAUW, and the pilot did some amazing things. Stalling in a max-rate turn and the thing just flicks wings-level, an impressive machine.

Seats around here get damaged when fatties dig a knee into them, not so much from being taken in and out.

 

[Flo33]

Well I guess that makes sense.

Sorry to disappoint you but no. It's wrong. Told for a long time but wrong.

That's the way it works

 

[Sandro]

They are mounted on old bomb racks, so the pilot has a release switch to drop the bikes if needed.

That means we can now drop Ellsworths and VPP bikes on Isis?!

 

[StiHacka]

That means we can now drop Ellsworths and VPP bikes on Isis?!

Only if equipped with dropper posts.

 

[HAB]

That means we can now drop Ellsworths and VPP bikes on Isis?!

What happens if you drop an Ellsworth Isis on ISIS?

 

[Westy]

What happens if you drop an Ellsworth Isis on ISIS?

All the aging dentist terrorist will become highly distracted.

 

[jonKranked]

What happens if you drop an Ellsworth Isis on ISIS?

 

[Jm_]

What happens if you drop an Ellsworth Isis on ISIS?

You get a new BB standard.

 

[johnbryanpeters]

That means we can now drop Ellsworths and VPP bikes on Isis?!

Undroppaburu.

 

[slimshady]

You get a new BB standard.

Let's not forget the single pivot acronym...

1. ATLAS": Anti-Torsion Low Forward Pivot Active Suspension"
   
   
2. What is it? ATLAS" (patent pending) emulates an ICT" linkage, providing most of the benefits of an ICT" linkage suspension bike in a simplified and cost effective single-pivot design. The shape of the ATLAS"-equipped bike was born out of pure function. Rather than figuring out how to "paste" a budget suspension linkage to a conventional front triangle like other brands have done, Ellsworth literally built the bike around the ATLAS equipped rear linkage; Ellsworthian engineering dictates that optimum function is paramount, always. High performance goals drive the design. Period. The utilization of sophisticated aerospace extrusion, shaping and milling technology made for an extremely high level of strength, efficiency and performance – but who would’ve thought function could look this good?
3. What’s the benefit? . Anti-Torsion (stiff, under the strongest pedaling inputs), Low Forward Pivot (the lowest and/or most forward of ANY single pivot bike in the World, for near vertical rear wheel travel, and chain torque aligned for maximum pedal power), ActiveSuspension (fully-active, smooth absorption under all conditions, with no bobbing or lock-out that other brands suffer from). The ATLAS" geometry also provides a linearly progressive" shock motion ratio which closely simulates the feel of Ellsworths more complicated and expensive ICT linkage designs. Its so well emulates Ellsworths ICT linkage technology, it will out perform the rest of the industries best four bar link bikes, with the ATLAS single pivot design! And strong? ATLAS"-equipped bikes have been tested by the toughest riders on the mountain&Weve gotten letters from well-known extreme terrain riders that say theyve broken all other lightweight free-ride bikes but ours. Theyre still trying,&jumping,&climbing,&abusing&but NO BREAKAGE! ATLAS"-equipped bikes are the new "Kings of Free-riding!"
4. Why do I want an ATLAS"-equipped bike instead of a single-pivot bike from another brand? All other single-pivot bikes are subject to the following, look how we’ve dealt with it using ATLAS:

1. 1. tremendous torsional loading where the rear and front connect, and only one point to
   2. contain it.
      ATLAS equipped bikes use tha Anti-Torsion tube upright to provides unmatched torsional strength to the entire frame front and rear. Our Anti-Torsion upright tube (unveiled on our 2000 AEON line) has drawn accolades from the press, who call our ATLAS"-equipped frames "Industrial Design Masterpieces."
      
      
   3. Varying pivot locations due to geometry changes by size, resulting in inconsistent suspension performance from size to size.
   4. Poor alignment, or strength because they insert the pivot into a tube, rather then
   5. attaching it to a one piece dedicated extrusion linking the BB and the Rear Pivot.
      ATLAS utilizes a one piece, precision machine Bottom Bracket shell combined Rear Pivot mounting location, making sure that regardless of what size the frame is, that part is always locating the pivot in the optimum performance location, in complete alignment with the frame in all directions planes.
      
      
   6. Bad mounting location for pivot, dictated by clearance and structural issues.

The AEON bike was designed around the optimized ATLAS design, resulting in a strong, stiff, attractive design that is functional first, and just happens to be attractive and stylish as well.

These are just a few of the problems that exist for all suspension bikes, but a are completely disabling problem for single-pivots in general until ATLAS".

Who are we to argue? The Anti-Torsion tube provides stiffness levels never before seen in a single-pivot frame. This converts to efficient energy transfer with minimal waste. Instead of soaking up your precious pedal power, ATLAS" sends it to the ground where it belongs. Powerful climbing and blazing descents; thats what ATLAS" is all about. ATLAS" is an Ellsworth exclusive technology. No one else has it,&except a growing group of smiling free-riders!

1. So whats the bottom line? An ATLAS"-equipped (single pivot) bike will out-perform the vast majority, of the industries top bikes, including the highly regarded four bar links, provides simpler maintenance, incredible strength, and pedal power efficiency rivaling the Ellsworth ICT linkage bikes, all at an affordable price!

Ride at ATLAS"-equipped bike and compare it to ANYTHING else, for performance and value&You just cant beat it!