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Lost

MMike

MMike

A fowl peckerwood.
Sep 5, 2001
18,207
105
just sittin' here drinkin' scotch
But being who I am, I was insulted by the writers giving an airplane a REVERSE GEAR! It would have taken so little effort to not require the airplane to back up. At least they had the thrust reversers deployed. But I'm not so sure it would be able to get the plane unstuck.

I was allowing that ok...maybe they have enough fuel.....and battery power....and whatever else...

It's such a small detail that would have been so easy to avoid. In my mind it's just lazy.

(and yes I realize that smoke monsters don't exist either, so the whole thing requires a suspension of reality.

Unless! Unless like curing Locke's paralysis, maybe the island gives airplanes special abilities! Like reverse! NOW it makes sense.


Did they ever answer why pregnant women don't fare too well on the island?
 
IH8Rice

IH8Rice

I'm Mr. Negative! I Fail!
Aug 2, 2008
24,524
494
Im over here now
so what was the significance of the gray hair that Richard had? did it mean that he was not immortal anymore?


i thought the last episode was the best series finale ive ever seen and the best Lost episode theyve had.
the flashbacks or "epiphanies" they were having were great as well. It didnt surprise me that Jack was having a hard time accepting this compared to everyone else. and its no surprise that Ben didnt "join" them in the end...that fvcker will never die
 
bizutch

bizutch

Delicate CUSTOM flower
Dec 11, 2001
15,928
24
Over your shoulder whispering
MMike said:
...


Did they ever answer why pregnant women don't fare too well on the island?
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Of course not. They were making it all up and once the network read the storyline for why pregnany women are screwed and wasted our time building up to a reason, it got canned. But, since it's TV and we're all agreeing that you don't have to have an ending...we can just pretend they meant to leave it hanging and call it 'art'.
 
bizutch

bizutch

Delicate CUSTOM flower
Dec 11, 2001
15,928
24
Over your shoulder whispering
X3pilot said:
Jack Bauer is going to escape to the island, now that it's not so crowded, kill the black fog thingy, wire the magnetron wheel to explode and scuttle the island itself back to real time, then piece the plane together himself and fly it off the ocean, land it at the UN, rescue President Taylor from a tribunal, load it with weapons, stop and pick up the engineer dude from Prison Break and retaliate on the Russians.
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Greyhound

Greyhound

Trail Rat
Jul 8, 2002
5,065
365
Alamance County, NC
bizutch said:
Of course not. They were making it all up and once the network read the storyline for why pregnany women are screwed and wasted our time building up to a reason, it got canned. But, since it's TV and we're all agreeing that you don't have to have an ending...we can just pretend they meant to leave it hanging and call it 'art'.
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Hey.....just breathe, man...just breathe. This is affecting you way too much. :D
 
S

slowitdown

Monkey
Mar 30, 2009
553
0
The whole 6 seasons was an extended version of this story:

An Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge, by Ambrose Bierce

It was strung along with diversions, as if the writers wrote each week's script in the 3 hours before shooting of that episode began. The acting was weak-sauce, "Ben Linus" was the most unbelievable "scary trickster" I've ever seen. How people let "Ben Linus" manipulate them and frighten them reminded me of the stupid pseudo-horror of Blair Witch Project. Any sane group of people would have beaten "Ben Linus" to death. Just like any sane group of campers would have known that in rural Montgomery County MD all you have to do is follow the creek to get to "civilization." There's nothing scary about Montgomery County MD.

Now with all the above said, I watched many episodes on Hulu. It was a decent enough waste of time. But it surely wasn't ground-breaking in any way except the cost of location-shooting in Hawaii, or the cost of a gigantic cast of actors and actresses.
 
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conor

conor

Monkey
Jan 19, 2009
340
0
Ireland
Greyhound said:
No. That was something that I wished they had gone a little further with, but I guess we'll never know.
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pretty sure that the consensus was that the statue was the egyptian god of birth and since that was destroyed nobody could give birth.
 
conor

conor

Monkey
Jan 19, 2009
340
0
Ireland
also some answers for all you haters out there. from a guy at bad robot
Good stuff on here! I can finally throw in my two cents! I've had to bite my tongue for far too long. Also, hopefully I can answer some of John's questions about Dharma and the "pointless breadcrumbs" that really, weren't so pointless ...

First ...
The Island:

It was real. Everything that happened on the island that we saw throughout the 6 seasons was real. Forget the final image of the plane crash, it was put in purposely to f*&k with people's heads and show how far the show had come. They really crashed. They really survived. They really discovered Dharma and the Others. The Island keeps the balance of good and evil in the world. It always has and always will perform that role. And the Island will always need a "Protector". Jacob wasn't the first, Hurley won't be the last. However, Jacob had to deal with a malevolent force (MIB) that his mother, nor Hurley had to deal with. He created the devil and had to find a way to kill him -- even though the rules prevented him from actually doing so.

Thus began Jacob's plan to bring candidates to the Island to do the one thing he couldn't do. Kill the MIB. He had a huge list of candidates that spanned generations. Yet everytime he brought people there, the MIB corrupted them and caused them to kill one another. That was until Richard came along and helped Jacob understand that if he didn't take a more active role, then his plan would never work.

Enter Dharma -- which I'm not sure why John is having such a hard time grasping. Dharma, like the countless scores of people that were brought to the island before, were brought there by Jacob as part of his plan to kill the MIB. However, the MIB was aware of this plan and interferred by "corrupting" Ben. Making Ben believe he was doing the work of Jacob when in reality he was doing the work of the MIB. This carried over into all of Ben's "off-island" activities. He was the leader. He spoke for Jacob as far as they were concerned. So the "Others" killed Dharma and later were actively trying to kill Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley and all the candidates because that's what the MIB wanted. And what he couldn't do for himself.

Dharma was originally brought in to be good. But was turned bad by MIB's corruption and eventually destroyed by his pawn Ben. Now, was Dharma only brought there to help Jack and the other Canditates on their overall quest to kill Smokey? Or did Jacob have another list of Canidates from the Dharma group that we were never aware of? That's a question that is purposley not answered because whatever answer the writers came up with would be worse than the one you come up with for yourself. Still ... Dharma's purpose is not "pointless" or even vague. Hell, it's pretty blantent.

Still, despite his grand plan, Jacob wanted to give his "candidates" (our Lostaways) the one thing he, nor his brother, were ever afforded: free will. Hence him bringing a host of "candidates" through the decades and letting them "choose" which one would actually do the job in the end. Maybe he knew Jack would be the one to kill Flocke and that Hurley would be the protector in the end. Maybe he didn't. But that was always the key question of the show: Fate vs Free-will. Science vs Faith. Personally I think Jacob knew from the beginning what was going to happen and that everyone played a part over 6 seasons in helping Jack get to the point where he needed to be to kill Smokey and make Hurley the protector -- I know that's how a lot of the writers viewed it. But again, they won't answer that (nor should they) because that ruins the fun.

In the end, Jack got to do what he always wanted to do from the very first episode of the show: Save his fellow Lostaways. He got Kate and Sawyer off the island and he gave Hurley the purpose in life he'd always been missing. And, in Sideways world (which we'll get to next) he in fact saved everyone by helping them all move on ...

Now...

Sideways World:

Sideways world is where it gets really cool in terms of theology and metaphysical discussion (for me at least -- because I love history/religion theories and loved all the talks in the writer's room about it). Basically what the show is proposing is that we're all linked to certain people during our lives. Call them soulmates (though it's not exactly the best word). But these people we're linked to are with us duing "the most important moments of our lives" as Christian said. These are the people we move through the universe with from lifetime to lifetime. It's loosely based in Hinduisim with large doses of western religion thrown into the mix.

The conceit that the writers created, basing it off these religious philosophies, was that as a group, the Lostaways subconsciously created this "sideways" world where they exist in purgatory until they are "awakened" and find one another. Once they all find one another, they can then move on and move forward. In essence, this is the show's concept of the afterlife. According to the show, everyone creates their own "Sideways" purgatory with their "soulmates" throughout their lives and exist there until they all move on together. That's a beautiful notion. Even if you aren't religious or even spirtual, the idea that we live AND die together is deeply profound and moving.

It's a really cool and spirtual concept that fits the whole tone and subtext the show has had from the beginning. These people were SUPPOSED to be together on that plane. They were supposed to live through these events -- not JUST because of Jacob. But because that's what the universe or God (depending on how religious you wish to get) wanted to happen. The show was always about science vs faith -- and it ultimately came down on the side of faith. It answered THE core question of the series. The one question that has been at the root of every island mystery, every character backstory, every plot twist. That, by itself, is quite an accomplishment.

How much you want to extrapolate from that is up to you as the viewer. Think about season 1 when we first found the Hatch. Everyone thought that's THE answer! Whatever is down there is the answer! Then, as we discovered it was just one station of many. One link in a very long chain that kept revealing more, and more of a larger mosiac.

But the writer's took it even further this season by contrasting this Sideways "purgatory" with the Island itself. Remember when Michael appeared to Hurley, he said he was not allowed to leave the Island. Just like the MIB. He wasn't allowed into this sideways world and thus, was not afforded the opportunity to move on. Why? Because he had proven himself to be unworthy with his actions on the Island. He failed the test. The others, passed. They made it into Sideways world when they died -- some before Jack, some years later. In Hurley's case, maybe centuries later. They exist in this sideways world until they are "awakened" and they can only move on TOGETHER because they are linked. They are destined to be together for eternity. That was their destiny.

They were NOT linked to Anna Lucia, Daniel, Roussou, Alex, Miles, Lupidis, (and all the rest who weren't in the chuch -- basically everyone who wasn't in season 1). Yet those people exist in Sideways world. Why? Well again, here's where they leave it up to you to decide. The way I like to think about it, is that those people who were left behind in Sideways world have to find their own soulmates before they can wake up. It's possible that those links aren't people from the island but from their other life (Anna's parnter, the guy she shot --- Roussou's husband, etc etc).

A lot of people have been talking about Ben and why he didn't go into the Church. And if you think of Sideways world in this way, then it gives you the answer to that very question. Ben can't move on yet because he hasn't connected with the people he needs to. It's going to be his job to awaken Roussou, Alex, Anna Lucia (maybe), Ethan, Goodspeed, his father and the rest. He has to attone for his sins more than he did by being Hurley's number two. He has to do what Hurley and Desmond did for our Lostaways with his own people. He has to help them connect. And he can only move on when all the links in his chain are ready to. Same can be said for Faraday, Charlotte, Whidmore, Hawkins etc. It's really a neat, and cool concept. At least to me.

But, from a more "behind the scenes" note: the reason Ben's not in the church, and the reason no one is in the church but for Season 1 people is because they wrote the ending to the show after writing the pilot. And never changed it. The writers always said (and many didn't believe them) that they knew their ending from the very first episode. I applaud them for that. It's pretty fantastic. Originally Ben was supposed to have a 3 episode arc and be done. But he became a big part of the show. They could have easily changed their ending and put him in the church -- but instead they problem solved it. Gave him a BRILLIANT moment with Locke outside the church ... and then that was it. I loved that. For those that wonder -- the original ending started the moment Jack walked into the church and touches the casket to Jack closing his eyes as the other plane flies away. That was always JJ's ending. And they kept it.

For me the ending of this show means a lot. Not only because I worked on it, but because as a writer it inspired me in a way the medium had never done before. I've been inspired to write by great films. Maybe too many to count. And there have been amazing TV shows that I've loved (X-Files, 24, Sopranos, countless 1/2 hour shows). But none did what LOST did for me. None showed me that you could take huge risks (writing a show about faith for network TV) and stick to your creative guns and STILL please the audience. I learned a lot from the show as a writer. I learned even more from being around the incredible writers, producers, PAs, interns and everyone else who slaved on the show for 6 years.

In the end, for me, LOST was a touchstone show that dealt with faith, the afterlife, and all these big, spirtual questions that most shows don't touch. And to me, they never once waivered from their core story -- even with all the sci-fi elements they mixed in. To walk that long and daunting of a creative tightrope and survive is simply astounding.
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reflux

reflux

Turbo Monkey
Mar 18, 2002
4,617
2
G14 Classified
conor said:
pretty sure that the consensus was that the statue was the egyptian god of birth and since that was destroyed nobody could give birth.
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The statue was destroyed during the storm that brought Richard to the island, circa 1868. Ethan the Other, was born on the island and presumably conceived there too. From that one birth we can assume that numerous children were born from the time the statue was destroyed to the time Ethan was born (1970s).Claire's baby Aaron (my bay-bay!) was conceived off the island but born on it.

I still stand by The Jughead Theory.
 
Greyhound

Greyhound

Trail Rat
Jul 8, 2002
5,065
365
Alamance County, NC
reflux said:
The statue was destroyed during the storm that brought Richard to the island, circa 1868. Ethan the Other, was born on the island and presumably conceived there too. From that one birth we can assume that numerous children were born from the time the statue was destroyed to the time Ethan was born (1970s).Claire's baby Aaron (my bay-bay!) was conceived off the island but born on it.

I still stand by The Jughead Theory.
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Don't forget Charlotte and Miles were also born on the island. :thumb:


My feelings are that the island itself caused the pregnancy issues which led to Ben recruiting Juliet, which led to her joining the Losties, which led to her being the one to detonate the bomb which led to the alternate timeline "holding pen."
 
reflux

reflux

Turbo Monkey
Mar 18, 2002
4,617
2
G14 Classified
Greyhound said:
My feelings are that the island itself caused the pregnancy issues which led to Ben recruiting Juliet, which led to her joining the Losties, which led to her being the one to detonate the bomb which led to the alternate timeline "holding pen."
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Assuming that the show's creators indeed wrote the final scene back when the scripted the pilot, that would make sense. Juliet was right by Sawyer's side in the church, which confirmed that they had a plan for Juliet from the start.

:thumb:
 
nmjb

nmjb

Monkey
Apr 26, 2005
217
0
Idyllwild, CA
Red Rabbit said:
Left over questions (SFW)

Worth a watch, despite being collegehumor.

I enjoyed the ending. Not the ending I was hoping for... but I can live with it.

Better than the ending of The Sopranos
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I'm late to the discussion here, just watched the finale last night. That vid definitely sums it up. I thought the finale was a decent two hours of tv, but I think they used spiritualism and mysticism as a crutch to end the series.
 
Greyhound

Greyhound

Trail Rat
Jul 8, 2002
5,065
365
Alamance County, NC
nmjb said:
I'm late to the discussion here, just watched the finale last night. That vid definitely sums it up. I thought the finale was a decent two hours of tv, but I think they used spiritualism and mysticism as a crutch to end the series.
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It was not so much a crutch to end the series as it was a MAJOR theme throughout the entire series. :D

Did you happen to notice the various differing religious symbols in the church at the end? They put all of these icons of religious belief to pretty much cover all of the bases pertaining to the afterlife so as not to seem too narrow-minded in their approach to the end.

Tough spot to be in as a producer of this show. 1/3 will love you, 1/3 will hate you, and 1/3 just won't know what the hell it was they just watched for 6 years. :rofl:
 
nmjb

nmjb

Monkey
Apr 26, 2005
217
0
Idyllwild, CA
Greyhound said:
It was not so much a crutch to end the series as it was a MAJOR theme throughout the entire series. :D

Did you happen to notice the various differing religious symbols in the church at the end? They put all of these icons of religious belief to pretty much cover all of the bases pertaining to the afterlife so as not to seem too narrow-minded in their approach to the end.

Tough spot to be in as a producer of this show. 1/3 will love you, 1/3 will hate you, and 1/3 just won't know what the hell it was they just watched for 6 years. :rofl:
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Yeah, Yeah. :D I know it was a major theme, but I felt like there were way too many loose ends and dead-end plot lines. I did notice the stained glass window in the church, like the CoExist bumper stickers.

I think season 6 was the writer's throwing a lot of crap at the wall to see what stuck and then throwing their hands up in the air when it came to explaining a lot of the past plot lines. I realize I'm being a little critical, since it is probably near impossible to pull off a completely believable plot arc over six seasons, but some shows do it (like The Wire).

My favorite part of the show was when predeterminism, goalism, and free will relating to the physics of the island were big topics. Our friend's husband was one of the writers for seasons 3,4, and 5, and I was hoping that the show was going to follow some of those plot lines.
 
conor

conor

Monkey
Jan 19, 2009
340
0
Ireland
yeah but the wire is a real life possibility so it wasn't as hard to keep that plot going. it would have been nearly impossible to actually come up with answers for all the questions lost posed.
 
nmjb

nmjb

Monkey
Apr 26, 2005
217
0
Idyllwild, CA
conor said:
yeah but the wire is a real life possibility so it wasn't as hard to keep that plot going. it would have been nearly impossible to actually come up with answers for all the questions lost posed.
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True. But posing a question and leaving it open to interpretation is different from a dead-end plot line. With Lost, I think some of it was writers choosing not to explain and some of it was writers not being able to explain.

I was hoping for a Many-Worlds quantum physics interpretation. But I feel like what I got was more like a not very believable mish-mash of science/mysticism. Like an exhibit at a Creationism museum trying to explain how dinosaurs are only 6,000 years old and why they aren't in the bible.
 
MMike

MMike

A fowl peckerwood.
Sep 5, 2001
18,207
105
just sittin' here drinkin' scotch
nmjb said:
True. But posing a question and leaving it open to interpretation is different from a dead-end plot line. With Lost, I think some of it was writers choosing not to explain and some of it was writers not being able to explain.

I was hoping for a Many-Worlds quantum physics interpretation. But I feel like what I got was more like a not very believable mish-mash of science/mysticism. Like an exhibit at a Creationism museum trying to explain how dinosaurs are only 6,000 years old and why they aren't in the bible.
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Exactly. I think you guys are giving the writers too much credit. I think they painted themselves into more than a few corners. They got themselves out by pure distraction and hoping that no-one would notice.

As a matter of fact, as a viewer, I think I'm insulted that the writers think so little of their viewers. So there.
 
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