[jimmydean]

But I am the first to say if it were legal to smoke, I would rather do that than drink.

Not to say that pot is harmless, but it is harmless compared to drinking and other drugs. How many violent acts have been comited after a bunch of guys smoked pot? Not to say it never happens or never would, but when compared to drinking, it may as well never happen.

Pot is not a gateway drug. Pot is also not adictive. Pot does have it's own issues and should be treated like anything else. If used in your own home when you won't be driving or wondering into traffic, pot is not bad. I mean pot is not bad period.

My employer drug tests, so does the Navy (I'm a reservist). So I couldn't even if I wanted to. But I would vote to legalize it, I would also promote Hemp as a fiber.

My $.02

 

[BurlyShirley]

Originally posted by valve bouncer
See you don't offer any solutions but admit that there's a problem. It's just a metronomic mantra of drugs are bad, drugs are bad. Tell me how you would make the present system better and no saying "more police, more prisons" because that's what's happening now.
And BS I think you'd be surprised what the population would accept if it made them feel safer. At the very least marijuana should be decriminalised immediately.

No, it shouldnt be decriminalized, that would cause more usage.

I say nothing is without problems, and we need to refine our current system so its more efficient. I dont know why more cops is off limits, but it certainly sounds viable to me.

Better education to the youth, parents and families. Stiffer fines and sentences for offenders would slow things up a bit i suppose.

 

[valve bouncer]

Originally posted by BurlySurly
No, it shouldnt be decriminalized, that would cause more usage.

I say nothing is without problems, and we need to refine our current system so its more efficient. I dont know why more cops is off limits, but it certainly sounds viable to me.

Better education to the youth, parents and families. Stiffer fines and sentences for offenders would slow things up a bit i suppose.

I notice how you conviniently ignore the research that shows decriminalisation does little to effect usage rates but that is certainly consistent with your MO. Please explain to me how more police would be better considering that the drug trade is one of the major drivers of police corruption and the billions and billions spent on law enforcement in the past 2 decades have done little to stifle supply and demand. Stiffer fines and sentences have also been tried with the only result being more people being involved with criminal justice system than should have been. Non-violent drug offenders who make up the vast majority of drug offenders are sent to jail with rapists, murderers and thugs and get sucked into the maelstrom of the modern prison system. When they get out they not only have no future but have probably developed a taste for even harder drugs because prisons are rife with drugs. How is that a better solution? A better solution is diverting these people from the criminal justice system right at the start.
From your answer it seems even you aren't convinced that the present sysytem can come up with solutions. It's time for something new to be tried, the drug war warriors have had their day.

 

[Silver]

Originally posted by BurlySurly
No, it shouldnt be decriminalized, that would cause more usage.

I say nothing is without problems, and we need to refine our current system so its more efficient. I dont know why more cops is off limits, but it certainly sounds viable to me.

Better education to the youth, parents and families. Stiffer fines and sentences for offenders would slow things up a bit i suppose.

While you were busy trading insults, you completely ignored my post way back on page 1. I've tried to get you to look at stats before, and you've brushed it off. I swear, it's like someone who believes in a flat earth closing his eyes everytime I walk into the room with a globe.

Simply saying that decriminalization would lead to more use doesn't make it fvcking so. Tell me how many marijuana addicts terrorize Holland, and then get back to me.

I just though of something else that's bugging me. You keep bringing up the fact that you think that the only reason medicinal marijuana is an issue is because the people pushing for it are trying to get closer to making it a legal high.

I'll grant you that point, for the sake of my question here. I'll go ahead and agree that if you're for medicinal marijuana, you just want to get high.

Here's my question:
What's worse, someone who wants to get high, or someone who would deny a legitimate treatment to someone on chemo?

Who's the crappier human? The one who wants to alter his brain chemistry temporarily, or the one who denies pain relief to someone in great suffering just to make sure that no one can get high.

The answer is obvious to me.

 

[androshandrew]

It's the second one, right?

 

[Silver]

You tell me

 

[BurlyShirley]

Originally posted by Silver

The answer is obvious to me.

Well my answer should be pretty obvious too, as i stated also on the FIRST PAGE.

I have no problem with medicinal marijuana. If a doctor prescribes it, he obviously knows what he's doing alot more than i do. What i said was that most of the proponents for medicinal MJ serve an ulterior motive.

If i recall correctly, i seem to remember a dateline special a few years back that talked about Holland's huge number of heroine addicts. Methadone clinics all over the place, legalized prostitution. Sure sounds like a place i want to raise my kids.

But look at the US. Yeah, we got laws out the ass, but our dollar remains worth quite a bit. A man can make an honest living and raise a family. Drugs remain on the streets, but most large businesses test for them because they recognize the importance of having competant workers. Screw holland. Screw your little stats that were probably manufactured by some pothead wanting to push his little agenda. I dont want my kids growing up thinking that its ok to do drugs. It is not OK. If the government says it is, that sets a standard for its people. We dont need to sink there.
Why does it matter what happens in holland? The population of that insignificant blot on the map has almost no relevance in my life to be fully honest.
Call me narrowminded, but this is my belief. I dont think i need to expand on this particular issue. I think im done here.

 

[Silver]

Originally posted by BurlySurly
Screw your little stats that were probably manufactured by some pothead wanting to push his little agenda.

Well, I guess you can lead a horse to water and watch him die of dehydration after all. Hey, you don't have to read anything if you're sure you're right. I'm not sure I am, so forgive me for spending a few moments with google...

Here's an interesting story from TIME magazine in 1996. It stars your other friends, the French government, and it'll shock you to find out that they agree with you 100%.

Maybe you don't remember correctly at all, perhaps?

Time International

As far as you stating that you'd support medical marijuana, forgive me for pointing out that the following statements are hardly ringing endorsements:

"I feel that there is nothing inherently good about Marijuana."

"Medicinal MJ would be fine, but i feel that the only reason anyone pays attention the cause is because they like the idea of Pot coming closer to being legal."

Your first statement is pretty clear. The second one is interesting...you say that you're okay with the idea, but then you immediately attack propenents of the idea and imply that they'd just like to get high, which in your eyes is bad.

It's an effective way to concede a small point while demonizing the other side of the issue, I'll grant you that much.

 

[valve bouncer]

Originally posted by BurlySurly

Call me narrowminded, but this is my belief. I dont think i need to expand on this particular issue. I think im done here.

The ass reaming you took in this thread I'd be giving up too. You ain't got nothing here apart from "drugs are bad mmmkay". You remind me of a little kid with his fingers in his screaming "not listening, not listening". Maybe when you grow up a bit and see and experience more of the world your mind will open a little more. Right now it's closed tighter than a fish's arse.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Originally posted by valve bouncer
The ass reaming you took in this thread I'd be giving up too. You ain't got nothing here apart from "drugs are bad mmmkay". You remind me of a little kid with his fingers in his screaming "not listening, not listening". Maybe when you grow up a bit and see and experience more of the world your mind will open a little more. Right now it's closed tighter than a fish's arse.

ha!

so quick to claim victory simply because your abnoxious rhetoric has clogged up the space where common sense should be. Maybe someday when someone you care about dies because of drugs, and you finally see that there is more to life than polluting one's mind with chemicals, you'll realize how mental you all sound in trying to push this cause off as legitimate.
Ive weighed your points and many others and have still come to the same conclusion. My once open mind was forced narrow by this vile spew you try to pass as an intelligent choice.
F*CK DRUGS.

I feel sorry for your children and parents alike.

Thanks for your time.
BS

 

[valve bouncer]

Originally posted by BurlySurly
try to pass as an intelligent choice.
F*CK DRUGS.

I feel sorry for your children and parents alike.

Thanks for your time.
BS

Woo hoo, there it is right there, the real Burly Surly out in the open for all to see and boy it sure ain't pretty. So much anger for one so young. I hope you work through it. Good luck mate sounds like you really need it.

 

[Thepagoda]

I haven't actually seen any consideration of the points, or even careful thought put into a meaningful response. It seems to me that the issue is so far out of scope that it can't be processed critically. I do admit that numerous inconsitencies in statements seem to be indicative of at least one iteration, but they don't really define any sort of critical argument. I have yet to see a clear, well developed and supported rebuttal of any points advocating the legalization and regulation of Marijuana.

I don't consider statements like more cops are fine as developed because it fails to adress the issue of HOW a solution is reached. If nothing else, everybody seems to agree that there is a problem, so there should be a solution. This is not a yes/no argument, so I think that to really adress the issues actual rhetoric will be used. Simply writing other people off is not rhetoric, saying that all pot users are wothless is like saying all cigarette smokers or alcohol users are worthless. There are a lot of alcohol and tobacco consumers that contribute to this nation's economy, and there are also a lot of pot smokers out there that go to work too.

P.S. - it makes your message a lot stronger when you use consistent arguments and dont' come back up with spins and explanations for what you really meant. (I think that this point was well illustrated by Mr. Silver)

 

[fluff]

I usually stay out of MJ threads but for what it's worth here are my thoughts, to a large degree based on personal experience.

I have smoked pot off and on for twenty years, ranging from not joints for several years to several joints a night for a year or so. In all that time I have commited no crime, held down jobs and never been violent towards anyone.

I have many friends who smoke daily and have very responsible jobs and achieve a great deal. I have acquaintances who smoke daily and hardly ever hold down a job, or achieve anything measurable. The point being that the differentiating factor is their personalities, not the pot smoking. The non-achievers would remain non-achievers even without pot. How can I back that up? I have seen that that is the case when they have gone for periods of not smoking pot.

None of these people have moved onto harder drugs. People I have known well who are into harder drugs rarely smoke pot because they use drugs (eg. coke and speed) to get more energetic, confident and 'in your face', opposite effects to pot and they don't actually like getting stoned.

So from my personal experience it is not a gateway drug (except perhaps to tobacco).

I'm interested in BurlySurly's statement about his parents being pot-smokers as he has also put forward opinions that parents who smoke pot are irresponsible and dangerous to their kids, does that tally with your own personal experience or do you see your parents as honourable exceptions?

 

[llkoolkeg]

I was curious what his opinion was on my original point- Why should youth listen to known deceivers(drug policymakers) whose entire basis for scheduling MJ as a dangerous narcotic are severely flawed at best and criminally corrupt at worst?

There have been good and poor arguments thus far on both sides.

Additionally, I was curious what his opinion was on people such as myself who are not particularly remarkable from other pot smokers I know and associate with: Christian, educated, well-employed, tax-paying, married with children, fairly conservative, basically moral, etc. who will smoke-up with friends away from the home where it might otherwise lead to legal difficulties. I don't fall into the stereotypical mold of the tie-dye wearing, war-protesting, VW minibus-driving, drug-pushing, amoral and unmotivated stereotype of a stoner that drug war proponents place us in to justify their continued hatred of us. I know many herb users who are no different.

 

[ohio]

Originally posted by BurlySurly
most large businesses test for them because they recognize the importance of having competant workers.

That's because it's not always obvious if someone is using while on the job. You'll also get fired for showing up drunk. If they needed to test for that (as in, if visual and olfactory inspection didn't make it obvious) they certainly would.

Businesses are smart enough to take care of themselves. People are (usually) smart enough to know when such things are appropriate and when they are not.

 

[ohio]

Originally posted by Thepagoda
This is not a yes/no argument

Heh, you obviously haven't argued much with BurlySurly. EVERYTHING is a yes/no argument, apparently.

(although, I hear if you repeatedly claim to have an open mind, it makes it true...)

 

[ohio]

Originally posted by fluff

I'm interested in BurlySurly's statement about his parents being pot-smokers as he has also put forward opinions that parents who smoke pot are irresponsible and dangerous to their kids, does that tally with your own personal experience or do you see your parents as honourable exceptions?

OH! SNAP!

 

[N8 v2.0]

Pro-pot people are funny....

 

[dh girlie]

Originally posted by -BB-
No... because you are a closed minded tight-arse bigot.

Oh THAT sounds threatening...tight ARSE bigot...at least say ASS when you are trying to be tough, Jeff... If you feel uncomfortable using a swear word, just think of it like the animal...a jack (pause here) ASS...

 

[indieboy]

Originally posted by N8
Pro-pot people are funny....

so are ignorant fu/cks, not yourself so dont' be offended....

 

[dh girlie]

Originally posted by LoboDelFuego
-BB-, would you stop just electronically nodding your head and surrendering? This is a debate forum!

His wife moved to LA already...he needs someone to smack him around!

 

[indieboy]

Originally posted by dh girlie
His wife moved to LA already...he needs someone to smack him around!

LMAO you mean besides himself correct :devil:

 

[-BB-]

Originally posted by dh girlie
Oh THAT sounds threatening...tight ARSE bigot...at least say ASS when you are trying to be tough, Jeff... If you feel uncomfortable using a swear word, just think of it like the animal...a jack (pause here) ASS...

I thought that that word ended up as ******.
Sheet

Ass **** bitch pussy dick ****

 

[Lucee]

Thanks for such an entertaining thread guys!

 

[-BB-]

Originally posted by dh girlie
His wife moved to LA already...he needs someone to smack him around!

Too bad I'm not turned on by MULLETS!!

 

[Tenchiro]

Now THAT, is some good sh!t!

 

[N8 v2.0]

Originally posted by Tenchiro

Now THAT, is some good sh!t!

Now THAT is FUNNY!!!

 

[Lucee]

Originally posted by N8
Now THAT is FUNNY!!!

Ah, nothing like true bastardization of a thread!

 

[indieboy]

Originally posted by Tenchiro

Now THAT, is some good sh!t!

does anyone see any similarities? i think i do........ LMAO :devil:

 

[partsbara]

Originally posted by BurlySurly
I find it funny that the same people who are pro pot, are usually always anti-big government, yet always use the argument of big tax revenue by way of legalizing pot.

Your priorities are SCREWED people. Getting HIGH is not that important.

Have you ever seen a stoner work? Or worth anything?

great comment BS... bet you wish you could take this one back... once again you have made yourself look like a fool... the MARINES have you well brainwashed son ... you said that you are done with this thread, but i guarantee that you are reading this

as for your comment directed towards BB - 'youre going nowhere BB' - i think you should have a look at your own lame 'drugs are wrong' arguement... facts mate, facts... you merely babble the same tired rhetoric... back your argument up..

i could point out numerous other places within this thread where you have put your foot in your mouth but i feel that you have proven yourself once again to be a stupid young kid who knows sh1t... maybe oneday when you have LIVED a little you will start to make sense of this thing called LIFE...


partsbara

btw vb - love the comment about the mirror LMFAO !

 

[Damn True]

Pot?

No thanks. I don't like the numbing sensation. I prefer to see, feel, hear, and taste the world as it is and not blured by a drug.

Yes, I do drink a glass of wine with dinner, or a beer at a baseball game, not to the point of intoxication, and not for it's effect, but because I enjoy the taste of quality beer and the compliment of the flavors in wine to food.

Medical MJ?

The supporting arguements are dubious at best. For every ailment that dope is supposed to be good for there is a perfectly good prescription drug. Most often it seems to me that rather than doing anything about the symptoms pot makes the ill person high enough that they don't care about the symptom. That being said, as soon as I see a study that shows that pot works as well if not better for the treatment of a given illness than the current treatment (from a responsible source w/o connection to pharmacutical companies OR pro-weed organizations) I will be all for the prescription of weed for THAT PARTICULAR ailment. Until then however I don't feel that "medical MJ" as it currently is defined should be allowed. Read an article that quoted a "medical MJ" user as saying he needed it for post-surgical back pain. C'mon, there are TONS of drugs that can be prescribed for pain. Regardless of your individual reaction there is one or many drugs that an individual can take that will alleviate their pain w/o a bad reaction. For instance, I have a bad reaction to Morphine and some other pain killers, but if I am prescribed Vioxx, Roxicet, or Vicodin I am fine.

Decriminalization?

No.

Legalization?

Perhaps. I'm not sure about this.

What I do know is that intoxicants are intoxicants. Driving a car, operating machinery, flying a plane under the influence of pot is every bit as dangerous as doing so under the influence of alcohol.
That fact must be considered when discussing the potential legality of pot.
Additionaly, access, and in turn child usage would undoubtedly increase. In 33 I years have never known where to get weed, but I know where to get alcohol and tobacco and at the age of 16 I could and did get both. If weed were legal and available at 7-11 the same would be true.

 

[Damn True]

It's funny the way some people, regardless of which side they are on, accuse the other of being closed minded simply because they refuse to agree.

Two things can be equally true. Not always of course, but from time to time it happens.

 

[indieboy]

Originally posted by Damn True
It's funny the way some people, regardless of which side they are on, accuse the other of being closed minded simply because they refuse to agree.

Two things can be equally true. Not always of course, but from time to time it happens.

there is a difference however of being able to say when one is wrong and being able to accept it, which some people simply can't.....

 

[partsbara]

Originally posted by Damn True
It's funny the way some people, regardless of which side they are on, accuse the other of being closed minded simply because they refuse to agree.

Two things can be equally true. Not always of course, but from time to time it happens.

you know DT, i m always open to people having their own opinions (regardless of my personal viewpoint), it s what makes life interesting and worth living... what i don t like tho' is people (often youngsters) who haven t LIVED making judgements about sh1t that they have no idea!

disagree with me... sure, but tell me WHY, and substantuiate (sp?) your point... don t put forward some mindlesss brainwashed ****e and tell me that you know all...

hell, you are 33.. you ve lived... don t you understand what i m getting at ?

plus... i don t like to think of it as 'sides'... just a different POV...

parts

 

[Damn True]

Originally posted by indieboy
there is a difference however of being able to say when one is wrong and being able to accept it, which some people simply can't.....

Ah, but BELIVING you are right does not necessarily make the other person wrong. They simply BELIEVE something differently.

 

[indieboy]

Originally posted by Damn True
Ah, but BELIVING you are right does not necessarily make the other person wrong. They simply BELIEVE something differently.

yeah but you KNOW what i'm talkin about quit tryin to be difficult and accept that your wrong

 

[Damn True]

When the majority of the population agrees with you, they will elect an official who represents that point of view and get things changed. Thankfully, i dont think most people will ever want drugs made legal.

Not supporting BS, but this is a good point.

 

[Damn True]

Originally posted by partsbara
you know DT, i m always open to people having their own opinions (regardless of my personal viewpoint), it s what makes life interesting and worth living... what i don t like tho' is people (often youngsters) who haven t LIVED making judgements about sh1t that they have no idea!

disagree with me... sure, but tell me WHY, and substantuiate (sp?) your point... don t put forward some mindlesss brainwashed ****e and tell me that you know all...

hell, you are 33.. you ve lived... don t you understand what i m getting at ?

plus... i don t like to think of it as 'sides'... just a different POV...

parts

We are in complete agrement. Wierd huh?

 

[partsbara]

Originally posted by Damn True
We are in complete agrement. Wierd huh?

 

[Silver]

Originally posted by Damn True

Medical MJ?

The supporting arguements are dubious at best. For every ailment that dope is supposed to be good for there is a perfectly good prescription drug. Most often it seems to me that rather than doing anything about the symptoms pot makes the ill person high enough that they don't care about the symptom.

Granted there are prescription drugs that will help with nausea from chemo, glaucoma, and anxiety. Problem is, some of those do have serious side effects, to the point that many many people die each year from prescription drug interactions or improper use. They are also expensive, and I can't grow them in my garden. Full employment for drug companies is NOT a good reason to keep something out of the hands of medical practitioners.

And hey, if someone on chemo gets high and forgets that they puked out their guts for a night, I'm not going to look down my nose at them and call them weak minded or immoral. What exactly do you think morphine does anyway?