i don't run tubeless, but my buddy swears the 823 are still the way to go. what sayeth the monkey.
mavic 823 vs 729
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I have both a like the 729 rim better for the wider tire profile though the 823 has been great for me as well. I am 195lbs and have tried the flows and bent them.
823 is a way betetr rim.
Atom Lab Pimp Lites are excellent too.
Atom Lab Pimp Lites are excellent too.
Some arguments would be nice, without them your statement is useless.
It's way more durable although heavier and more prone to pinch flats.
I have found the 729 to be very durable. more so than the 823.
Both are great rims with the 729 being slightly stronger and it gives a wider tire stance.
Both are great rims with the 729 being slightly stronger and it gives a wider tire stance.
823's are ridiculously strong. A buddy rode one with a flat and 7 broken spokes down a trail, figured the rim was done and was still hitting jumps. Got to the bottom and we discovered that the rim was still straight. So we started shooting it with a gun, to see if that would do it. The bullets bounced off. So then we gave it to superman to see if he could break it, and he couldn't even do it. Eventually he flew it into the sun, and the rim came out good as new. It is literally indestructible.
But the 729 isn't bad either. And it has a wider rim profile. Which is nice.
But the 729 isn't bad either. And it has a wider rim profile. Which is nice.
wider=better. 29mm inner rim width will square up the minion DHF nicely and increase your contact patch. You can also run a bit lower pressure without squirming.
I have a nice set of wheels that are 26mm inner width, and a much nicer set of wheels that are 21mm inner width. The nicer ones a sitting on a shelf because the wide rims ride so much better.
I have a nice set of wheels that are 26mm inner width, and a much nicer set of wheels that are 21mm inner width. The nicer ones a sitting on a shelf because the wide rims ride so much better.
next you'll tell me that your v10 rides great in the parking lot.
I'm not against this wider is better logic, but isn't it a trade off in contact patch when leaned over in a turn vs a narrower rim? It's always been part of why I've run 721s, but I have never run a "wide" rim up front, and usually not in the rear.
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i use 823. though im looking to use light weight wide rims as new dartmoors, Spank Race evo 28, flow ex, wtb i23 etc. They look relatively wide. I have ex721 too and didnt had problems yet
it will be interesting to see if I notice difference when I use Dartmoor rims.
it will be interesting to see if I notice difference when I use Dartmoor rims.
Currently run EX823 rear and EX721 front and have loved the combo. Thinking about switching over to Spank Spike Evo 28 front and 35 rear this year though to save some weight.
No real experience with the EX729.
No real experience with the EX729.
I have been kicking the sh1t out of a set of 823s for over a decade. They're scraped and scratched and don't seem to bend - back when I ran tubes I got a pinch flat or two. Don't care about grams. If it matters, I weigh sumpin in the 160 pound range.
First real DH wheels I had were D321, now called EX729s, and they last 2 seasons before I hit a drop blind, and went HUGE to flat, and made them look like "D"s.
Got Trailpimps as a "burlier" replacement. They lasted a season.
Back to 321s on Kings. Two seasons, sold them is good shape.
Tried a lighter setup on my next wheels, singletracks on hope pro IIs. They got dents and wobbly real quick, but managed to make them last a season. Replaced them with EX729's, sold them in good shape.
Next wheels were MTXs on Hadley (came on the bike). They held true, but got lots of dents. I replaced them with transition 32 rims, because I wanted CHROME RIMZ to match my bars. They got wobbly and dented quickly.
New bike came with singletracks on ringles. Got deaded. Replaced them with EX729s, still running true and strong.
You can't go wrong with the 729. You may wish for a bit lighter or a flashier color, but they are super reliable rims.
Got Trailpimps as a "burlier" replacement. They lasted a season.
Back to 321s on Kings. Two seasons, sold them is good shape.
Tried a lighter setup on my next wheels, singletracks on hope pro IIs. They got dents and wobbly real quick, but managed to make them last a season. Replaced them with EX729's, sold them in good shape.
Next wheels were MTXs on Hadley (came on the bike). They held true, but got lots of dents. I replaced them with transition 32 rims, because I wanted CHROME RIMZ to match my bars. They got wobbly and dented quickly.
New bike came with singletracks on ringles. Got deaded. Replaced them with EX729s, still running true and strong.
You can't go wrong with the 729. You may wish for a bit lighter or a flashier color, but they are super reliable rims.
Why did you never go for 823's?
This topic seems to get rehashed pretty regularly here... these might be some help:
http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/f19/should-i-trade-my-deemax-823-hope-256317/
http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/f19/823-vs-729-a-167548/
http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/f19/stans-ztr-flow-ex-thoughts-experiences-254827/
http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/f19/stans-flow-ex-vs-mavic-ex823-others-254563/
http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/f19/should-i-trade-my-deemax-823-hope-256317/
http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/f19/823-vs-729-a-167548/
http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/f19/stans-ztr-flow-ex-thoughts-experiences-254827/
http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/f19/stans-flow-ex-vs-mavic-ex823-others-254563/
Thanks, those threads proved about as useful as this one.
I went with the 729's, non ust, slightly wider, sound strong enough by most peoples accounts. Probably better than the azonic outlaws that came with my bike.
Much better
I think I am going to re-hoop the azonic wheels and use them as backups. Probably use 729's on those as well. The back is in need of immediate replacement. The front is good for now.
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Define 'need'
When ordering an 823 rim, does it come with the nipple inserts and air valve?
Heavier, more expensive, slower to build, have to bring another tool. When they first came out, lots of people had problems with slicing sidewalls by the bead with UST minions. Part of it was those sidewalls were made out of paper mache, but the 823 has a pretty sharp bead compared to the wide, rounded bead of the 729.
But they were stronger than 729's you kept damaging
yep .. you need buy special tool for nipple inserts. (not expensive)
flat spotted, out pf true, I true it (at shop, im no wheel guy) between rides and it ends up all wobbly and flatspotted again after a day of riding. Truth is its just not holding up. No dents, but wobbly as hellDefine 'need'
Yeah if you've got flatspots that somebody at a shop is trying to pull out over and over again, it's probably over. I was just wondering because those things will ding up but still be round forever.
There's no reason you shouldn't be able to keep it tight though. Your guy at the shop know what he's doing? You using butted spokes?
There's no reason you shouldn't be able to keep it tight though. Your guy at the shop know what he's doing? You using butted spokes?
Honestly? I don't know. The wheels came with my tr450 due to budgetary reasons. The first ride I cases a jump and flat spotted/wobbled the rim.
I don't really know who the "wheel guy" in my area is, basically if you're not a dirt Roadie Xc racer you don't get **** for service around here.
The local lbs trued it up for me, but the next time I jacked a rock hard it went all wonky again. Ridable, but not in great shape.
Im ordered the 729's and will provably buy a new hoop for the current wheel and learn how to fix it myself as it will be a backup wheel anyway.
I don't really know who the "wheel guy" in my area is, basically if you're not a dirt Roadie Xc racer you don't get **** for service around here.
The local lbs trued it up for me, but the next time I jacked a rock hard it went all wonky again. Ridable, but not in great shape.
Im ordered the 729's and will provably buy a new hoop for the current wheel and learn how to fix it myself as it will be a backup wheel anyway.
Yeah tensioning/building wheels isn't that hard. And you know it's done right when you do it yourself. And DH wheels are the easiest of all.
Just use straight gauge spokes and keep them tight.
Just use straight gauge spokes and keep them tight.
I run 2.5 Maxxis. Have for years now(or Specialized but they're the same width). Wider rims might give more cornering grip but at the cost of feel. I'm basing this on my experience with fatter tyres on the same thinner rim. Contact patch will be about the same size, same force applied and same pressure, but it'd be a different shape. From using 321s years ago, I recall them being a strong wheel very wnt very easy, hence why everyone used the straight side wall 521 back in the day instead. I run tubeless so can't coment on pinch flats sorry. General rule is if rim dents easy you get less pinch flats but need new rims more often. 823s don't dent easy. I'd like to try new non Maxxis larger tyres as I remembered liking 2.7maxxis before I joined the masses and ran 2.5s. To do so I'd like to try a fatter rim. New wider flow on front and new wider Atom Lab pimP or maybe 729 on back. I'll stick with tubeless and guessing the atom lab will dent less so probably run it.
Straight guaged? That means the same size diameter all the way thru? When I ordered my wheels I ordered 2mm spokes. But saw for Xc there was an option for 2mm-1.5mm to save weight....or am I way off here?
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Yep, straight gauge is 2 mm all the way. But in my experience a wheel stays true longer if you use double butted spokes like 2.0-1.8-2.0. They are a tiny bit more flexible but you also get less broken spokes. If you are hard on spokes go for DT Alpines that are 2.3-1.8-2.0.
That is correct. Most straight gauged like DT Swiss Champion will be 2mm all the way, then slightly lighter (what I run) is the DT Swiss Competition which is 2mm-1.8mm-2mm, then the lighter XC spokes are the DT Swiss Revolution and are 2mm-1.5mm-2mm.
There are also other options, but those seem to be the most prevalent.
Cool. I've never been too hard on wheels historically. Trashed this wheel, and a front a few years ago. The specialized rebranded dtswiss on my previous bike held up fine over 2 years of hack riding.
Butted spokes are designed to let the wheel flex. This does take a little stress off the rim but it also allows it to deform to the point of coming out of true more often. You can get a much more rigid wheel out of straight gauge spokes. With all the hoopla about stiff frames, cranks etc, butted spokes have never made sense to me, especially on a dh bike. If you've got a race team mechanic who always has a new wheelset waiting for you, I can see the point because they are less rotational weight. But most of the hard riding guys I know who build their own wheels settled on straight gauge wheels a long time ago. I know I quit building wheels a lot less frequently once I started using them a long time ago.
Not my experience.
There is a reason that cranks have to be stiff, but frames, forks and wheels can be too stiff. Mavic made a point that the right amount of wheel flex can improve traction.
+1, use butted spokes on everything but my DJ bike and have never had a problem with knocking them out of true as long as they are tensioned properly.
Agreed
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Throw a go pro on your bike aimed at the stiffest wheel you could possibly build with straight gauge spokes.
It's not like it doesn't flex. And it's not like tires don't deform.
The same argument was made for shivers years ago. It was silly then and it's silly now.
I've had a butted front wheel with straight gauge spokes on the back with the same rims on many many bikes. I always end up having to true the front way more frequently. That's not because I'm hitting it harder.
You yourself said they flex more. Why would it not follow that 32 of them flexing in conjunction allows a rim to deform to the point of bending the rim out of true easier?
And I can't even remember the last time I broke a non butted spoke.
Do you guys build/true your own wheels? I'd like to learn, best resource/book/website to learn how to do it properly?
I have a spoke wrench, I've "trued" a wheel before, but I am sure the tension wasn't what it should have been and there was NO science behind what I did, it was pure trial, screw up, and error, finally got it a little better just ride it kinda deal......
thanks
I have a spoke wrench, I've "trued" a wheel before, but I am sure the tension wasn't what it should have been and there was NO science behind what I did, it was pure trial, screw up, and error, finally got it a little better just ride it kinda deal......
thanks