[bizirka]

i have a few things to say, one is, isnt there a possibility of building a DH course at tiger. Also howabout building a Dh courses some were around exit 27 or 38. Also what about snoqualmie i heard they are opening up for next summer. Also does anyone know any land owners or an area that would allow ppl to build a race course there and run races. if there was a place near were i live RENTON i would definatly build the whole damn course my self in the summer once school gets out. All we need is a hill like they have at spokane so we could build multiple courses on it and run races there. any input would be apreciated. thanks
PS i say we turn snoqualmie into a miny whistler

 

[Snacks]

Originally posted by bizirka
i have a few things to say, one is, isnt there a possibility of building a DH course at tiger. Also howabout building a Dh courses some were around exit 27 or 38. Also what about snoqualmie i heard they are opening up for next summer. Also does anyone know any land owners or an area that would allow ppl to build a race course there and run races. if there was a place near were i live RENTON i would definatly build the whole damn course my self in the summer once school gets out. All we need is a hill like they have at spokane so we could build multiple courses on it and run races there. any input would be apreciated. thanks
PS i say we turn snoqualmie into a miny whistler

Where would everyone park if a race was held at 38?

Do you know how much the pass would charge for having the lift service open?

 

[mplutodh1]

Alright first off, search some of the previous posts and you'll see what I am going to say.

1 - Tiger: doubt it

2 - 27 and 38, nope highly doubt it

3 - Land owners, I'd think if someone knew someone we would have a course by now. It's not a matter of having a course, its having a legal course, or getting permission to host an event there. There is a trail here in Bellingham, on DNR land that the DNR knows about and said we can ride, however we can't host an event there or build more trails.

4 - Snoqualmie, doubt they open next summer, never seen that kind of drive from anyone up there. They could care less. If it does happen I will be shocked. It would take a HUGE turn around for anything even remotely close to Whistler to occur at Snoq. Just isn't going to happen.

 

[DHRacer]

Originally posted by bizirka
i have a few things to say, one is, isnt there a possibility of building a DH course at tiger. Also howabout building a Dh courses some were around exit 27 or 38. Also what about snoqualmie i heard they are opening up for next summer. Also does anyone know any land owners or an area that would allow ppl to build a race course there and run races. if there was a place near were i live RENTON i would definatly build the whole damn course my self in the summer once school gets out. All we need is a hill like they have at spokane so we could build multiple courses on it and run races there. any input would be apreciated. thanks
PS i say we turn snoqualmie into a miny whistler

ah, the naive, yet eternal hope of the those who're just getting into the sport...

1) Spokane - we've been very fortunate to be able to have races there, but, like yourself, young pups going up and build (without permission from the land-owner)and screw it up for the rest of us. They build things incorrectly, and someone gets hurt, then someone sues the land owner, who had no idea they were up there in the first place.

2) Land-Owners - I think you'd be VERY lucky to find a private land owner who would let you build on their land, and do what you're talking about... simply from a liability standpoint. Good luck.

3) Snoqual - They're not about biking, it's all about skiing. there's an association working trying to ge them to open again for summer riding... but to think that it could ever be a mini-whistler? there is that naive hope I spoke of before.

4) Final thought - The main concern with wanting to build a DH "course" is, how many people will be riding it, and how often? who will maintain it? Accessability? take 38 for example, that place has gotten the snot ridden out of it since people started talking about it... and it shows. If you're wanting to build a DH course that you can ride till the cows come home, go buy yourself a piece of land and start building. If you're going to let friends ride there with you... you better have a ton of insurance, because in the end you're the one that's liable.

you might think some of this is a hardened and synical view-point, but remember, we've been riding a lot longer than you have, and have been down these roads before.

 

[SebringMGB]

So, say tom rich person buys land out in XXX. Builds trails on it, and has some way of shuttling. can he charge people $5.00 to drive their own trucks up the hill? what are the liability issues if you did? i think it would be killer if this was doable. have a healthy discount for people who go and build. seems like the running costs of a place like this would be 0, other than taxes (oh yeh, and buying the place) just put a road up to the top, some sort of pay lot like St eddys. and let people have at it.

 

[bibs]

Originally posted by SebringMGB
So, say tom rich person buys land out in XXX. Builds trails on it, and has some way of shuttling. can he charge people $5.00 to drive their own trucks up the hill? what are the liability issues if you did? i think it would be killer if this was doable. have a healthy discount for people who go and build. seems like the running costs of a place like this would be 0, other than taxes (oh yeh, and buying the place) just put a road up to the top, some sort of pay lot like St eddys. and let people have at it.

that sound way too much like math.....this is a MTB forum silly....

 

[Borneo]

It would probably take some surfing on the web to find it. But I believe there's some ranches in the SW that actually do this with an XC flavor. Charging money for you to ride their cattle trails. And, some other farmers have actually gone into building trails as another means of income. I believe the Austin, TX 24 hour race is held on one of these ranches. If someone wanted to research the state law, I'm sure Texas is a lot more protective of private property than WA is. Worth looking into if the price of lumber goes down...

 

[Borneo]

Sorry about that. Just found one. www.singletrackranch.com Ooops. That's John's bike vacation site. Keep searching, keep searching.....

OK, www.rockyhillranch.com was the place I was thinking about. Pure XC in flat Texas. But, an idea.

 

[Ice Bullit]

If only I had thousands of dollars laying around

 

[DHRacer]

Originally posted by SebringMGB
what are the liability issues if you did?

if anyone gets hurt on your land, you are responsible. If someone decides to sue you, then, you're going to be shelling out a lot of money. Even if someone gets hurt, and doesn't sue you, their insurance company may come after you for compensation as well.

 

[RhinofromWA]

Originally posted by SebringMGB
So, say tom rich person buys land out in XXX. Builds trails on it, and has some way of shuttling. can he charge people $5.00 to drive their own trucks up the hill? what are the liability issues if you did? i think it would be killer if this was doable. have a healthy discount for people who go and build. seems like the running costs of a place like this would be 0, other than taxes (oh yeh, and buying the place) just put a road up to the top, some sort of pay lot like St eddys. and let people have at it.

Having a Dh trial is a liability. People can get sued for having a pool in their back yard if the neighborhood kid jumps in w/o permission and drowns. How hard do you think charging someone for making a trail with drops and doubles and such for bicycles would be? You would have to fence it all off.....have the ones you let ride it sign waivers (even that doesn't protect you 100%)

There is a reason private land owners don't just let people build a DH course on their land. Races held on private land compensate the land owner (rent the land) and the racing organization has to carry large amounts of Insurance. My motorcycle club does when we host the 4 or so races we put on every year plus our monthly play days.

People always make not having money an excuse for not buying land themselves....yes it is expensive. Why do you think the people owning the land want to protect their investment? Think about it from the land owners standpoint. If it is such a good investment...I suggest you save up a large chunk of cash, buy property, do what you propose and make some cash on the side. I can't beleive noone thought of it before......*lighthearted sarcasm*

Ranchers with land not being used for much, will get some extra income from hosting an event. That is a far cry from buying land and building a DH trail and hosting events or jsut having a open trail system.

 

[Snacks]

Originally posted by RhinofromWA

People always make not having money an excuse for not buying land themselves....yes it is expensive. Why do you think the people owning the land want to protect their investment? Think about it from the land owners standpoint. If it is such a good investment...I suggest you save up a large chunk of cash, buy property, do what you propose and make some cash on the side. I can't beleive noone thought of it before......*lighthearted sarcasm*

Exactly. You have any idea how much your homeowners insurance increases when you tell them you are using it for recreational proposes?

Oh, and if you don’t tell the insurance co. and someone gets injured on your property and they or their parents sue you, you’ll probably not have enough insurance coverage to save your ass.

 

[buildyourown]

Originally posted by DHRacer
if anyone gets hurt on your land, you are responsible. If someone decides to sue you, then, you're going to be shelling out a lot of money. Even if someone gets hurt, and doesn't sue you, their insurance company may come after you for compensation as well.

Actually, private land owners are protected from liability in this respect. Most land owners are ignorant of this and don't let bikes use there property because they are afraid of being sued. However, when they charge you to ride, they start to assume some liablity, such as a ski area. There must be a way around it because we paid to ride somebody's lame ranch in Utah. It wasn't worth the $1 we paid at the gate. I think we might have been paying to park, not to ride. That way the landowner could say he wasn't liable.

Think about all the place we ride xc that are privately owned. 300th, Carnation, Victor Falls (I think).

 

[RhinofromWA]

Originally posted by Snacks
Exactly. You have any idea how much your homeowners insurance increases when you tell them you are using it for recreational proposes?

What "recreation" are you doing in your home that requires insurance?

Bow-chick-a-bow-wow.

 

[RhinofromWA]

Originally posted by buildyourown
Actually, private land owners are protected from liability in this respect. Most land owners are ignorant of this and don't let bikes use there property because they are afraid of being sued. However, when they charge you to ride, they start to assume some liablity, such as a ski area. There must be a way around it because we paid to ride somebody's lame ranch in Utah. It wasn't worth the $1 we paid at the gate. I think we might have been paying to park, not to ride. That way the landowner could say he wasn't liable.

Think about all the place we ride xc that are privately owned. 300th, Carnation, Victor Falls (I think).

You are not protected and will spend time in court even if you do win in the end. Nothing protects negligence and that is subjective to the courts and jury if need be. Why do you see "do not Tresspass every fith tree on some properties? it is a measure to protect themselves....but if you build someting that beople tresspass to ride....you created a laibility.

Personal responsibilty is not looked upong to often in courts unfortunately.

 

[Borneo]

By "300th" I think you must mean the Victoria Tract of the Pilchuck Tree Farm. I'm not sure about the issues at Victor as I have not been there in a while. But, as for Carnation(Tolt-MacD), it's owned by Port Blakely Tree farms and they have a, "don't ask don't tell" policy. So, if anyone get's hurt in there, haul them out on to Tolt Hill road and say it happened there. One big medivac could blow that.
As for the Pilchuck, the land manager is getting more and more nervous every year about keeping it open. The PRA(Pilchuck Recreation Assoc) was formed about 7 years ago to work with them to mitigate issues such as nailing stunts to live trees that they wanted to harvest. (The kabash has been put on that.) Also, on our side of things, the land manager is very cool about natural rock/log rides, etc. Just ask the "Snake" builders. They are pretty tight with the land manager at the farm. But, I'd like to reiterate that every year as use increases, there's some hot meetings and a lot of pleading from representatives of the various user groups to continue use there.

 

[Snacks]

Does anyone know their way around the tree farm up north? We are thinking about hitting it this weekend?

 

[Borneo]

Which one? There's 3.

Yes, like the back of my hand. But, will likely be Eastside, like everyone else.

Will probably be a sloppy mess at Victoria Tract. It was pouring up there yesterday and this morning.

 

[Snacks]

The one of 300th. Maybe we'll wait until 12th when it might not be as wet.

 

[Borneo]

That's Victoria Tract. There's an, "Iron Ranger" at the official Trailhead on the Glass School Road off 316th. Donations gladly accepted and 100% goes to buying gravel, stringers, whatever's needed to keep the land manager happy and us riding there.
Got map? Either PM me and I'll fax one or you can get it from the Tree Farm Office on 300th during business hours. Barbara Wood is the office Manager there and she's very cool with us riding there.
Also, there's over 42 miles of trail in that 9 square mile area. It's very unfortunate and sad that 99% of people that ride there only ride the same 3-4 trails. Over, and, over, and over....Explore and get lost!

Just to keep the thread going, they did have an XC race there several years ago that the Bicycle Paper sponsored. It totally flopped and they likely won't ever support having a race there again. Much less a DH one which they easily could pull off if anyone here has also done the Bloody Leg-Ridge Trail(Zen or Star Wars to the unknowing)-Crossover-Bridge Trail sequence.

 

[Snacks]

Thanks! A map would be great!!!!

I PM'ed you my fax number.

 

[buildyourown]

Clipped from the IMBA webiste. To paraphrase, if you don't charge to let people ride your land, you aren't liable. If you build the trail for free, you aren't liable. If you lead a group ride for free, you aren't liable. These laws are fairly new(1997), so things might be getting better. A lot of landowners still don't know thier rights.



Landowner liability limitations
The most basic protection for private landowners is the state recreational use statute. Each state has one, and they all follow a basic pattern. If landowners allows people to recreate on their land without charge, then the landowner has immunity from personal injury lawsuits brought by visitors.

State statutes vary in some important details, such as the exact duty of care borne by each landowner to identify or warn about known dangers. But it is fair to say that within the context of allowing people to ride their bikes on dirt trails for free, the private landowner is in a very strong legal position to have a personal injury negligence lawsuit summarily dismissed.

Sovereign immunity and tort claims acts
Some state recreational use liability statutes specifically include public land management agencies as "landowners" who are protected by the statute. In every state, various state and federal tort claims acts limit the liability of a government agency. The tort claims acts generally give government land mangers a high level of liability protection.

Tort claims acts are legislative codifications of the common law doctrine of sovereign immunity. Long ago, courts decided that kings and governments could not be sued. This view has since manifested as an entire body of various state and federal statutes, which, if they do not provide outright immunity from all lawsuits, will at least severely limit the time, place and potential recovery from a personal injury lawsuit against the government.

Again, tort claims acts are strong protections for public landowners, but there are a few limitations that we should be aware of, mainly for smaller forms of government like counties and municipalities. In a minority of jurisdictions, the sovereign immunity doctrine extends down through the federal and state governments, but not all the way to the cities. Municipalities in these areas can be held liable for negligence if there is not statutory protection for them expressed in that states tort claims act.

IMBA has produced an informative paper on recreational use liability and the tort claims acts. It provides a chart of the status of these basic legal questions for every state. We encourage those interested in learning more to call the IMBA main office for details on how to obtain this document.

Good samaritan laws and the Volunteer Protection Act of 1997
Another important common law doctrine that relates to our discussion of mountain bike liability is the idea that volunteers are immune from regular (remember: not gross) liability. Most states, and now the federal government, have codified this expression of public policy into so called good samaritan laws, which protect volunteers from lawsuits for negligent acts carried out during the regular course of their volunteer work.

Good samaritan laws protect members of trailwork parties who might be sued for building a negligently designed trail upon which someone was later injured. They would also protect leaders of group rides or volunteers who helped out at club events where someone was injured. They do not protect the clubs themselves, so that lawsuits against volunteers that get dismissed by virtue of good samaritan laws might still prevail against the organization and its assets (such as the clubhouse or club bank account).

The most important good samaritan law is the federal Volunteer Protection Act of 1997. It sets a minimum standard of volunteer protection that applies to all the states.

 

[Borneo]

Yes, this is true. That's why the Pilchuck tries to have "donations" for parking.
Same concept will apply for the Duthie Hill/King Co stuff once the details are hashed out and legal building begins...

Ya gotta pay for trail building and repairs somehow.

Snacks, for some reason, I did not get your PM?

 

[DHRacer]

Originally posted by buildyourown
Clipped from the IMBA webiste. To paraphrase, if you don't charge to let people ride your land, you aren't liable. If you build the trail for free, you aren't liable. If you lead a group ride for free, you aren't liable. These laws are fairly new(1997), so things might be getting better. A lot of landowners still don't know thier rights.

There is a HUGE difference between building a TRAIL and building a DH COURSE.

If some one comes on your land and builds a 30ft double and some 4-6ft drops, piles up a big rock garden, and so forth... when someone gets ripped cuz they stacked the double or endoed over the drops... and are looking at a couple to few thousand dollars in hospital bills... you will pay. that is gross negligence.

As with the "release of all liability waivers" they have us sign at races... those don't mean dick in a court of law.


Granted, most of us know what we're doing and are willing to pay the consequenses if we get hurt... but it only takes one money hungry mother or father or some dumbass who's riding way over his head, to sue you. and they WILL win. PLUS, have you ever wondered why on those accident reports you fill out for your insurance, they ask you where it happened, who's property it is, etc...? They want they're money back. So just because so-so-dipsh*t who cartwheeled down your mountain and broke his arm isn't going to sue you... his insurance company may come knocking on your door.

That good samaritan law was designed for bike tour type rides, xc rides, horseback rides, that sort of thing... not screaming down a mountain at 30 mph, launching yourself over sick gaps and huge drops... trust me on this one.


But hey, if you dont' believe those of us who've warned you, by all means go right ahead and rest on the safe haven of that "good samaritan law"... but you better have a d@mn good lawyer and a lotta cash in your piggy bank should things go terribly awry.

 

[RhinofromWA]

Gross negligence liability is never wiaved with a piece of paper or a law. The law never was meant to protec acts of negligence.

A 4 foot drop that someone falls and diesfromthe family can sue you. Building a stunt and not protecting dumb arses from it is negligent.

Same with the backyard swimming pool. That is why pools have 1 or 2 fences around them. To show they are trying to keep kids from drowning.

Many people dont' understand how f'd up they can be in court for just allowing a trial to be built on the property. Even if a case is thrown out it will still cost you lawyer fees and court realted costs to get that far.

So no, nothing up there releases land owners from liabilty 100%.

 

[Snacks]

Originally posted by Borneo
Yes, this is true. That's why the Pilchuck tries to have "donations" for parking.
Same concept will apply for the Duthie Hill/King Co stuff once the details are hashed out and legal building begins...

Ya gotta pay for trail building and repairs somehow.

Snacks, for some reason, I did not get your PM?

Here's my fax number 206/264-2025. No cover letter needed, it comes to my e-mail account.

Thanks.

 

[buildyourown]

I think the difference lies in "gross" neglegence. Building a trail on your and letting people rid it is probably safe. Building stunts would get you in trouble. I understand that a DH race is a whole nother issue.

I'm pretty sure the insurance companies were responsible for getting the stunts ripped out of the Tapeworm. Guy got hurt. Guy told his insurance company were it happened. Insurance company called landowner. Etc, etc.

If you were a landowner, you could always put up "No Trespassing" signs to protect yourself. What's that called, "Plausible Deniability"? Basically, play dumb. Kinda like the don't ask, don't tell. If the landowner doesn't know, they limit their liablity.

 

[RhinofromWA]

Originally posted by buildyourown
I think the difference lies in "gross" neglegence. Building a trail on your and letting people rid it is probably safe. Building stunts would get you in trouble. I understand that a DH race is a whole nother issue.

I'm pretty sure the insurance companies were responsible for getting the stunts ripped out of the Tapeworm. Guy got hurt. Guy told his insurance company were it happened. Insurance company called landowner. Etc, etc.

If you were a landowner, you could always put up "No Trespassing" signs to protect yourself. What's that called, "Plausible Deniability"? Basically, play dumb. Kinda like the don't ask, don't tell. If the landowner doesn't know, they limit their liablity.

if you make someting that is found to be dangerous (a dh course duh ) that opens you up to liability. Don't fence it off.....to keep people away fro liability issue. Negligent No fence but signs every 5 ft along property line. can still be found to be negligent even grossly negligent as that level is decided in court....but do you have $15K to have a suite thrown out? Even if you could?

"Ignorance" is never a viable defense....that was made clear in my law class (business law) many moons ago....if you make it people can sue you.

 

[Borneo]

Sending the fax, Snacks.

When I used to let others ride the stunt trails in my yard, I'd have them sign a waiver that pretty much stated, "You might not sue me. But, you're next of kin will." Stole that quote from some other local builder and thought it fit.

Just don't even risk that anymore....

 

[Snacks]

Originally posted by Borneo
Sending the fax, Snacks.

Got it Thanks!!!

 

[buildyourown]

I think this can all be sumed up in one phrase. "Stupid F'n Lawyers."

The fear of lawsuit is destroying this country. I'm going to Canada.

 

[oly]

Originally posted by buildyourown
I think this can all be sumed up in one phrase. "Stupid F'n Lawyers."

The fear of lawsuit is destroying this country. I'm going to Canada.

Canada is catching on. I remember a while back seeing a story about a kid who got paralized on a school trip to whistler. The parents sued and won a but load of $$. It was some sort of first for BC or something. Thats why it was in the news.

I have 5 acres. Its flat, but would be a cool place to build DJ's and ladderwork. Ive thought of doing it many times. In the end my lazyness and busy schedule keep me from ever doing it. Now reading all this BS, i think ill keep it flat, and go poach someone elses hard work. I would hope that if a friend came here to ride and got hurt there wouldnt be any suing going on, but you never know who might bring someone else. When i was in high school a friend build a 1/2 pipe. The rule was only a few select friends could ride it. Well we broke that rule a few times and his dad got way pissed. At the time we didnt understand, but now seeing the sue happy world we are all so afraid of it makes sence.

Whats the point? I dont know, my mind is lost in thoughts of whistler tomorrow. Lets just hope in time the whistler model will finally catch somewhere here in this state, I would like to be able to drive 2 hrs max instead of 5-6 to go play on lift accessed land. Untill that happens its whistler and the small handfull of semi legal and illegal trails we all covet.

 

[DHRacer]

Originally posted by buildyourown
I think this can all be sumed up in one phrase. "Stupid F'n Lawyers."

The fear of lawsuit is destroying this country. I'm going to Canada.

it's not necessarily the lawyers though... it's the courts who don't through these stupid arse lawsuits out and tell the dillholes to start taking responsibility for their own actions. Our legal system is a gross embrassment in this regard (and others)... but until a judge stands up and says, "get your sorry a$$ outta my court room, you money hungry dumbsh*t", then this will continue to happen. I'm telling you, common sense IS the missing link. And sadly, our society rewards people who don't have it?!?