[math2014]

Man i have just said that even if TREK or GF or any other big company were NEW to the DH scene they could catch up quickly... wtf... i didnt say they were new to it.

and actually, i supported them some time ago when there was a thread about the 77

 

[BadFastard]

Is the Blur 4X already available?
Maybe that's the one?

 

[binary visions]

Lamest argument against them so far

You should probably double check the post you're replying to before making such an inflammitory response... He was agreeing that Trek or GF could easily make a good bike.

I think people really need to get over their lame prejudices. Look at Iron Horse - once upon a time, I was considering buying one of their first DH bikes simply because the parts kit (Shiver, Profiles, the whole 9 yards) that came with it was worth far more than retail on the complete bike. I would have just chucked the frame because it was crap.

Now, they've gone through a couple years of a really great, World Cup winning Horst link frame, and have the potential to be selling one of the best DH bikes that you can buy for 2005 - obviously, nobody knows that yet, but the fact is that everyone who has ridden one has been impressed, and the exponential leaps in quality that IH has been making bode well for this new offering. Not to mention, they've increased their prices significantly and for an up-and-comer, the bike had better be worth it. For some reason, well established botique companies like Intense can get away with selling poorly aligned frames and such, but IH would be crucified for it - I'd guess their marketing/sales team isn't stupid and is simply confident in their product.

People are under this delusion that building a DH bike is some kind of black art that only a select few companies can manage. F*** that, it's tubes and machined parts just like every other bike on the planet, road bikes included. If you have the resources for a good design team, can obtain good tubing, give it to skilled welders, and have high quality machined parts - hey, it's a mechanical device and it'll likely turn out great.

 

[math2014]

People are under this delusion that building a DH bike is some kind of black art that only a select few companies can manage. F*** that, it's tubes and machined parts just like every other bike on the planet, road bikes included. If you have the resources for a good design team, can obtain good tubing, give it to skilled welders, and have high quality machined parts - hey, it's a mechanical device and it'll likely turn out great.

It sums up everything needed to be said on the topic of "who can make a DH bike"

 

[xy9ine]

soul-eating is fun!

"...i want your soul... i will eat your soul... come to daddy..."

(np: aphex twin)

 

[ChrisRobin]

When people see Trek, they see XC bikes and road bikes...the same company that built the carbon bikes that won Tour de France. Man, put that engineering into a DH frame and see what comes out. The Diesel was straight forward as far as design and everyone hated it (those who didn't own one). I wondered why people loved Orange's 222/223??? But the Diesel had little details that not many companies could produce.

When I got my BB7, after playing around with it for a while and seeing how much of a hack-job it was, I was kicking myself for not getting the Diesel. At that time I was working for my LBS and we had just become Balfa dealers who refused to help while my Trek rep was awesome and always offered support.

That's my take. I like bikes that aren't garbage...regardless of the size of the company.

 

[Sherpa]

Over at the hell-hole known as MTBR i actually found some knowledge about SC new bikes....

The Superlight will be revamped, think lighter and stiffer

There going to be 2 or 3 new versions of the Blur, a lighter, more race oriented version with a longer toptube and shorter travel, and a trailbike Blur that will be warrantied with a 5" fork.

Theres also going to be a new 6.5" VPP to be replace the Heckler and Bullit

(Just word of mouth and i have no idea how true that stuff is, but it was posted by some guy that seems to know everything about SC).

And of course theres going to be the VPFree and the V-10 still.

 

[ChrisRobin]

Oh, you want to know who 'eats' peoples' souls??? Banks!

They approve you for things and you make plans accordingly...but at the last minute they turn around and change their minds!

Maybe Trek can lend me money....

 

[Superdeft]

As much as a 6.5" vpp would be sweet, it's going to be expensive...

 

[OGRipper]

Does anyone actually have reliable info about a new SC bike or what? Is this just guesswork based on what makes the most sense for them given their current line?

 

[scurban]

Rumor has it that Santa Cruz is taking the blur, and going in two different directions with it. Much like Specialized's Enduro, 1 model is the 4x model, and the other is a 6" Enduro style bike. So I am assumeing that they will be unveiling the 6" version. VPP and all.

This information was given By a very imortant person in the santa cruz mtb community, I assure you its true, and of all the rumors being tossed around on this thread, it seems to be the most likely. We've already seen the blur 4x, the new bike to be Unvieled should be the 6" blur.

Gowd... Flippin IDIOTS!

 

[binary visions]

Does anyone actually have reliable info about a new SC bike or what? Is this just guesswork based on what makes the most sense for them given their current line?

How dare you say that?!

I heard it from a friend who heard it from a friend who heard from a shop mechanic that their Santa Cruz rep. was out drinking one night and mentioned it to his old college roommate.

It's totally reliable info!

 

[OGRipper]

How dare you say that?!

I heard it from a friend who heard it from a friend who heard from a shop mechanic that their Santa Cruz rep. was out drinking one night and mentioned it to his old college roommate.

It's totally reliable info!

Hahaha, oops what was I thinking? Continue the e-spec, nothing to see here...

 

[Evel Monkey]

soul-eating is fun!

"...i want your soul... i will eat your soul... come to daddy..."

(np: aphex twin)

Anyone see Bubba Ho-Tep?? Solid proof that soul-eating is indeed fun.

 

[binary visions]

Hahaha, oops what was I thinking? Continue the e-spec, nothing to see here...

Your signature makes my brain hurt when I read it...

 

[OGRipper]

Your signature makes my brain hurt when I read it...

I found that shizz here

 

[Curb Hucker]

This information was given By a very imortant person in the santa cruz mtb community, I assure you its true, and of all the rumors being tossed around on this thread, it seems to be the most likely. We've already seen the blur 4x, the new bike to be Unvieled should be the 6" blur.

Gowd... Flippin IDIOTS!

This is cool and all, but what really matters is: Is Go-Ride going to make a linkage kit to alter the geometry???

 

[zedro]

I think people really need to get over their lame prejudices. Look at Iron Horse - once upon a time, I was considering buying one of their first DH bikes simply because the parts kit (Shiver, Profiles, the whole 9 yards) that came with it was worth far more than retail on the complete bike. I would have just chucked the frame because it was crap.

Now, they've gone through a couple years of a really great....

face it, DW is what gave them 'street cred' when they were ho-hum Taiwan clones with E-13 linkage geo and stickers. And when you get a quote like this:

Personally i think the session looks cool the tubing, paint, and rocker look cool. But its still just a trek.

you know people are just brand whores....

wow what great looking jeans...oh wait they arent designer....

 

[OGRipper]

wow what great looking jeans...oh wait they arent designer....

Actually I heard the new SC bike is the result of a pioneering joint venture with Jordache...and the newest member of the Syndicate is Shaun Cassidy

 

[jackalope]

Don't really care about brand...Kraft Foods, Inc. could build a bike, and if it was worth a can of cheese whiz, I'd take a look at it...But it seems like Trek and GF are just going to be trotting out old-been-done-1000 times designs...

"Hey look at us! We're Trek and we made a carbon road frame that Lance used to win the TDF! So you know we can build anything better than anybody else because we're...Umm...Big...Yeah, because we're big...And Andrew Shandro rides for us - so you know it's all good! And with all of super secret alien technology available to us, we're going to bless the DH world with <gasp> a single pivot and a faux bar design! I know, I know, it's hard to believe, but it's true! And remember, our single pivot DH bike is better than Orange's because we're bigger...And Andrew Shandro is better than Steve Peat...Similarly, our faux bar design is better than Kona's because we're bigger...And Gary Fisher is much cooler than Cedric Gracias, especially when he wears his Dr. Seuss hat...So there..."

And spare me any drivel about a Trek DH bike being thousands of dollars less than a Kona Stab or a Gemini...

But to reiterate, I think everyone knows Trek can make a quality bike, but coming from a marketing standpoint, it just seems kinda hollow that all of sudden they want to get serious about the DH scene...And then, upon deciding to get serious in the DH scene, they don't offer up anything groundbreaking...Honestly, I think you need mad hype to sell a lot of bikes (e.g. SC and the VPP juggernaut - who cares if it works, MBF likes it and it looks cool = SOLD), and I just don't think Trek will be able to generate that with what they're talking about...

But I've been wrong before...Like the time I flatly stated that Keanu Reeves was the most abysmal actor EVER and consequently would never make it in Hollywood...

 

[OGRipper]

But I've been wrong before...Like the time I flatly stated that Keanu Reeves was the most abysmal actor EVER and consequently would never make it in Hollywood...

You were half right on that one.

You also make some good points. Trek and Fisher are playing it safe with the general designs. But that's what they do: they take existing ideas and tweak them to make them a little better, lighter, cheaper, and generally more palatable for a wide market. In that sense Trek is the Madonna of the bike industry. Hard to know what else they're working on, maybe they are working on other alien technology...could be they are playing catch-up and don't have anything groundbreaking to release YET. At the very least you would expect a full OCLV race bike, like a (gasp) BCD for the masses or something, even if the suspension design is not earth shattering. Or maybe a gearboxx bikke, who knows? I'd rather see them generate controversy from taking some chances than from playing it safe but I don't have to answer for their bottom line.

EDIT: Please don't point to the 9500 and the Y-bike and tell me Trek is a DH pioneer, ok?

 

[binary visions]

But it seems like Trek and GF are just going to be trotting out old-been-done-1000 times designs...

So, what, exactly, would you suggest? That they take after Orange, who still sells a successful DH bike, and they're very innovativ-- oh wait, no, that's just a single pivot, a has-been design.

Maybe they should take after Kona, who has an entirely new lineup this year wit-- err, wait, no, their bikes haven't changed in a frickin' century.

Maybe they should be like Foes, or Azonic, or Turner, or Cannondale or.. or.. No, wait, all of those companies are using designs that have been done a million times before, or haven't changed in years and years.

So, what exactly would you suggest? That they, as their first offering in the DH/FR world, invest the R&D in a totally new suspension design that may or may not take off? That they don't stick with something that works well, and refine it and offer things that their competitors don't?

Why?

"Hey look at us! We're Trek and we made a carbon road frame that Lance used to win the TDF! So you know we can build anything better than anybody else because we're...Umm...Big...Yeah, because we're big...And Andrew Shandro rides for us - so you know it's all good! And with all of super secret alien technology available to us, we're going to bless the DH world with <gasp> a single pivot and a faux bar design! I know, I know, it's hard to believe, but it's true! And remember, our single pivot DH bike is better than Orange's because we're bigger...And Andrew Shandro is better than Steve Peat...Similarly, our faux bar design is better than Kona's because we're bigger...And Gary Fisher is much cooler than Cedric Gracias, especially when he wears his Dr. Seuss hat...So there..."

This whole rant is retarded. Every company in the world does this. Orange says, "HEY LOOK AT US! We're selling a <gasp> single pivot! But Steve Pete rides for us, so you know it's good!"

That's marketing. You single out Trek like the rest of these companies don't do the exact same thing every day. Like I said:

And don't call it a "faux bar". It's a four bar design. Period. There is nothing fake about it. The only thing fake is Specialized's marketing ploy to get people to think anything that's not a Horst link is "fake".

everyone knows Trek can make a quality bike, but coming from a marketing standpoint, it just seems kinda hollow that all of sudden they want to get serious about the DH scene...And then, upon deciding to get serious in the DH scene, they don't offer up anything groundbreaking...

Okay, fine. It's hollow. They're not doing anything groundbreaking. So, you go ride your other bikes, but I'd much rather spend my money on a bike that a company has done right, and has refined carefully, rather than slapping together something new and call it "groundbreaking".

 

[Racer-X]

wow this thread is AWESOME-O!

and people wonder why i complain about everything on this site...

it's all contained in this one thread.

 

[binary visions]

wow this thread is AWESOME-O!

and people wonder why i complain about everything on this site...

it's all contained in this one thread.

So leave.

That's the beauty of the internet. If you don't like it, go away.

Bye now. I'm sure many tears will be shed over your departure.

 

[OGRipper]

wow this thread is AWESOME-O!

and people wonder why i complain about everything on this site...

it's all contained in this one thread.

Thanks for playing!!! Your helpful comment is really appreciated!!! Hopefully I've annoyed you some more with my AWESOME sarcasm, and you'll STFU and go back to the kinder-threads wherever you came from!!!

 

[zedro]

Actually I heard the new SC bike is the result of a pioneering joint venture with Jordache...and the newest member of the Syndicate is Shaun Cassidy

it took me like 5 minutes to think of a brand name but i couldnt (is Tommy Hilfiger still cool?), so i went with the generic 'designer jeans'....

thanks fashion-boy!

 

[Transcend]

wow this thread is AWESOME-O!

and people wonder why i complain about everything on this site...

it's all contained in this one thread.

so leave then? You have 148 posts and bitch more ( as a percentage of posts) then people with 10x that amount of posts.

 

[ChrisRobin]

Trek should take that generic Oryx/Azonic/Everyone-else-in-the-world design, put their name on it and be accepted by all the black-diamond riders out there.

 

[Bikael Molton]

but what exactly is a 6" Blur?

6" XC/Enduro race bike
6" trail bike
6" FR frame (mini-VP Free)

-r

This information was given By a very imortant person in the santa cruz mtb community, I assure you its true, and of all the rumors being tossed around on this thread, it seems to be the most likely. We've already seen the blur 4x, the new bike to be Unvieled should be the 6" blur.

Gowd... Flippin IDIOTS!

 

[OGRipper]

but what exactly is a 6" Blur?

6" XC/Enduro race bike
6" trail bike
6" FR frame (mini-VP Free)

-r

Could be any one, or all three - it's all a difference of degree anyway.

And Zedro, yeah man I have a scary ability to pull old pop culture references of out my ass. You can beat me up all day with the tech-babble but dude I owned you in the designer jean department, and what else really matters?

 

[math2014]

Why should we care? It will be flexy so...

 

[punkassean]

Probably the bike I saw a prototype for about a year ago here in SC. It was a VPP linkage w/a mono front like the new V10 but with less travel and an SC fork. I asked a few vague questions and was given a few very vague answers....

There is a thread somewhere about it from back then.

 

[jackalope]

So, what, exactly, would you suggest? That they take after Orange, who still sells a successful DH bike, and they're very innovativ-- oh wait, no, that's just a single pivot, a has-been design. Maybe they should take after Kona, who has an entirely new lineup this year wit-- err, wait, no, their bikes haven't changed in a frickin' century.

Maybe they should be like Foes, or Azonic, or Turner, or Cannondale or.. or.. No, wait, all of those companies are using designs that have been done a million times before, or haven't changed in years and years.

So, what exactly would you suggest? That they, as their first offering in the DH/FR world, invest the R&D in a totally new suspension design that may or may not take off? That they don't stick with something that works well, and refine it and offer things that their competitors don't?

Why?

Sigh...I wonder if it's physically painfully to be so deplorably stupid?

You just proved my point...There's already plenty of people out there doing single pivots and Kona 4 bars (happy now?)...And they've been doing for a lot longer than Trek has..So if you really want to turn some heads, how 'bout try something different? It's not that singles and fours don't work, it's just not going to be a big deal...Marketing 101...As for investing money in R & D to design a new DH suspension, hell yes, they should do it if they're so big and are really serious about making a dent in the DH market...Otherwise, good luck...

This whole rant is retarded. Every company in the world does this. Orange says, "HEY LOOK AT US! We're selling a <gasp> single pivot! But Steve Pete rides for us, so you know it's good!"

That's marketing. You single out Trek like the rest of these companies don't do the exact same thing every day. Like I said:

This is pitiful...Simply pitiful...Orange isn't the new kid on the block...Last I checked, Trek is...They (i.e. Trek) are the ones who need to make a big statement, not Orange, not Azonic, not Kona, not Foes, not Intense, not SC...

but I'd much rather spend my money on a bike that a company has done right, and has refined carefully, rather than slapping together something new and call it "groundbreaking".

Are you kidding me? Yeah, all those low quality V-10s and M-3s that SC and Intense are putting out...Completely slapped together...And have you ever ridden a Fuel or a Sugar? Yeah, they're not burely DH bikes, but gawd those rear triangles are about as solid as the Michael Jackson's status as a babysitter...Pure junk, from the guys who 'refine' things carefully and 'do it right'...Not that other frame manufacturers haven't built some junk stuff, but to imply that all Trek and GF bikes are the pinnacle of frame designs - wow...



OG - I hear ya, and appreciate your points...But like you said, woulda been kool to see them really bring something new to the market...But that, has now been discussed ad nauseum...

 

[zedro]

wow, this is really stupid. People are actually arguing Trek should design around their own dumb biases, and the only way around that is to create their own niche market...which of course will be pooped upon no matter what by the same people.

and anyone notice that these people are arguing against bikes that might not even exist at this point? if that doesnt prove over-zealousness, i dont know what does...

 

[binary visions]

Sigh...I wonder if it's physically painfully to be so deplorably stupid?

Look, I may have been dismissive of your argument because I disagreed with every part of it, but let's keep the personal insults out of this, okay? I'm not stupid. I would not be so pompous as to assume that you're stupid.

Call my argument stupid. Call my reasoning insane. Calling me stupid, though, only serves to make you look like an arrogent prick.

So if you really want to turn some heads, how 'bout try something different?

Or, they could release a well thought out design that the smart people will look carefully at. They can sell based on establishing a reputation with a good solid offering. You don't have to market by selling the newest, fanciest design available. Look at E.13 - they produced a chainguide that simply works better than the competition, and they've got a cult following that's almost as devoted as, and certainly larger than, the Avalanche mafia.

Are you kidding me? Yeah, all those low quality V-10s and M-3s that SC and Intense are putting out...Completely slapped together...

Please indicate where I have said that SC and Intense bikes are "slapped together" and "low quality". Direct quotes only, okay?

Not that other frame manufacturers haven't built some junk stuff, but to imply that all Trek and GF bikes are the pinnacle of frame designs - wow...

Please also indicate where I have said that. I'm not sure where you're pulling this stuff from. I simply said that a large manufacturer has the capability to produce and excellent product, if they devote sufficient resources to it. Seemingly self-evident, I know, but apparently not everyone gets it.

 

[neversummersnow]

So basically what we're saying is the market is saturated. You want to enter either carve a niche out for yourself or make sure your stuff is lower priced etc. Seperate yourself somehow.

The market is still growing, and last I checked, I haven't found a DH bike that I don't have to do SOMETHING to before I ride it everytime...so perfection is still out there to be had, even in simple designs.

Don't count the big guys out. If their product sucks, you don't have to buy it, if it's a good product...more power to em...that's progession in a free economic system.

 

[OGRipper]

Don't count the big guys out. If their product sucks, you don't have to buy it, if it's a good product...more power to em...that's progession in a free economic system.

No. The big companies are not punk rock enough. I don't care how small they were when they started, the only good companies start small and stay that way. That way I can satisfy my need for something core and obscure, which need comes from the fact that there is nothing unique about my character, personality, or riding. Do what you want, I'm keeping it real. Now shut up and go ride your bike while I post some more insults.




[Please recognize the sarcasm. Please.]

 

[Superdeft]

Alright, nobody's going to win a prize by arguing about a bicycle over the internet. I think it's cool they Yeti is trying something new, if it works that's great, if not, it's not the end of the world. It's a bike.

 

[jackalope]

People are actually arguing Trek should design around their own dumb biases, and the only way around that is to create their own niche market...which of course will be pooped upon no matter what by the same people.

Umm, yeah that's the general point...You're Trek, you've got the resources and expertise to do something really revolutionary...What better way to break into the market? Making the same old designs just seems kinda half ass on their part...And as for poo-pooing a truly new design from Trek, look elsewhere...I would be the first to applaud them...

and anyone notice that these people are arguing against bikes that might not even exist at this point? if that doesnt prove over-zealousness, i dont know what does...

Astounding...Talking about possible new mountain bike products on an internet message board about mountain biking...Simply stunning that this conversation even came up...Heck, I might even call it astoundingly over-zealous...

but I'd much rather spend my money on a bike that a company has done right, and has refined carefully, rather than slapping together something new and call it "groundbreaking"

Binary, this is what I referring to when I used the V-10 / M-3 example...Basically you seemed to be saying that if it's new, than it was slapped together...In retrospect, I know you weren't trying to say that, it just came over that way to me...And when I think new, I think Sunday, Faith, V-10, etc...And I wouldn't put any of those in the slapped together catagory...I really can't think of any off the top my head that would fit in that catagory...And I still don't think Trek is automatically going to build 'refined' frames 'done right' just because they're Trek...They can, and have, made some horrific designs...

Look, I know you're not stupid, my bad on that...Sincere apologies...

Agree to disagree...

 

[binary visions]

And when I think new, I think Sunday, Faith, V-10, etc...And I wouldn't put any of those in the slapped together catagory...I really can't think of any off the top my head that would fit in that catagory

The difference there (to me) is that those companies have established track records in the DH/FR industry. And none of them started with these new VPP & DW-link designs.

Santa Cruz has always had single pivots; as simple and "overdone" a design as they come. They established themselves in the market... refined their design... developed some credibility... then invested in something new.

Iron Horse did the same thing. They had a simple 4-bar (non-Horst) design to start... They refined it, added the Horst link... did some more structural improvements... got some credibility... and now, they're investing in something new.

Giant did the same thing as well. If those three companies are anything to go by, it sounds like a fairly good formula for success. Both of them have had their share of crappy designs in this market, and both of them have made appropriate corrections. Not one of them jumped into the market with a new, revolutionary design. They started with a design that they knew worked, and went from there. Sounds like good reasoning to me...