[BMXman]

Posted By: lwrhaightman | April 04 2007 at 09:49 AM

I'm proud to be a cyclist and ashamed by what happened to this family. I stopped riding in critical mass almost 10 years ago because people who DO NOT REPRESENT THE BICYCLING COMMUNITY took it as a reason to create anarchy. Critical Mass is no longer a bicycle ride, it is an attack on the city by people with very narrow views. I think CM should be required to get a parade permit, hire cops and be responsible for any damages just like any other parade.


not a bad idea....D

 

[chicodude]

Lawlz at this thread.

 

[H8R]

I want to retract my suggestion about the cops and the grenades.

I think the cops should have flame throwers. Much better news footage will result.

 

[pixelninja]

You were a troll once.

once?

 

[H8R]

once?

Stinky is no troll. Trolls have feelings.

 

[Skookum]

There is a lot of generalization going on here, lumping all cyclists in with the few who caused this unfortunate incident. That's like saying all soccer or football fans are wrong because there are a few zealots who get violent, and that we should shut down all soccer and football games. Or, more appropriately, saying there should be no cars at all because of the many bad drivers out there. Not really fair to the people who behave. As with any big group, a small number of jerks can act up and create unwanted negative attention. The people who cause problems are usually cited or arrested, as they should be.

Your logic is skewed as sporting events are actually legitimate events while Critical Mass is not. The persons who hold the event can be responsible for taking direction in preventing outrageous behavior. Critical Mass there is no one. And there are actions to take licenses away from bad drivers.

You bring up bad examples to support your logic to defend Critical Mass.

Nobody here or anyone within the ride can be critical within the mass. And if they are who is going to listen. Who is responsible within the group for.... well anything? Nobody that's who.

So who's responsible for all the negative publicity and perceptions that derive from this. Critical Mass is turning to tactics of anger and fear and it's something that is doing a great disservice to cyclists across the nation. Irregardless of the good intention of the many, idealists who participate should waken themselves to the fact their positive message isn't being spotlighted in the forefront, and will never rise above the negative messages.

Stop being naive and help cylists in a responsible manner before more people get hurt. For if we choose to fight cyclist advocacy through this type of warfare manner, people will be hurt and killed as a result.

 

[pedalmunky]

Hold on there, Skookum, OG does have a point. I think it's irrefutable that if you gather up enough people you'll find yourself with a significant minority of idiots. You see it at concerts, political rallies, and sporting events. And in its perverse way, CM is all of the above. Your argument that soccer mobs are somehow more 'legitimate' because they happen to take place at a sanctioned event is ludicrous. No one is any more accountable when violence breaks out at a football match than if someone shatters a car window during a mass. Look at Italy - a policeman got murdered during a match, with no one in custody. But they didn't arrest the team owners for their 'responsibility' in the crime, did they?

Idiots act like idiots, and then they run away and hide. That's all there is to it. Hate the Mass for giving these people an excuse to act this way, but leave it at that.

 

[sanjuro]

Well, I just got back from my ride to Mt Tam. Looks like I started a firestorm.

Before I came home tonight, I volunteered at the SF Bike Coalition. The executive director herself commented about this story. Apparently it is one sided tale: what she heard was this woman drove through a pack of cyclists and they chased her down and swarmed the van until police arrived, who apparently did very little after she hit a cyclist.

I do not think anyone should bust out a back window, and obviously the element of children involved makes this story sensational. However, the director said to spread the word out, so I do think there is a battle brewing against cyclists and critical mass.

edit: the director also said that it was wrong to bust out the back window. I have seen a Mini driver go all aggro on a bunch of cyclists during CM including running over a bicycle. The car was trashed, somewhat justified in my opinion, but violence has a way of turning right back on yourself. I didn't participate then, and I would not have now.

 

[Red Rabbit]

Well, I just got back from my ride to Mt Tam. Looks like I started a firestorm.

Before I came home tonight, I volunteered at the SF Bike Coalition. The executive director herself commented about this story. Apparently it is one sided tale: what she heard was this woman drove through a pack of cyclists and they chased her down and swarmed the van until police arrived, who apparently did very little after she hit a cyclist.

I do not think anyone should bust out a back window, and obviously the element of children involved makes this story sensational. However, the director said to spread the word out, so I do think there is a battle brewing against cyclists and critical mass.

edit: the director also said that it was wrong to bust out the back window. I have seen a Mini driver go all aggro on a bunch of cyclists during CM including running over a bicycle. The car was trashed, somewhat justified in my opinion, but violence has a way of turning right back on yourself. I didn't participate then, and I would not have now.

Great, Just great, WTF just what we need. War on the streets. Why can't we all just get along. This blows. NO things are really going to go to hell. This means that stinky might have been right. So i might have to apoligize.

 

[sanjuro]

I read through some of the posts, like "getting a permit" or "tactics of terror". Let's get real here. I have been to a hundred critical mass and the worst thing I done is clip a side mirror accidentally.

I think the problem here the mob mentality. After 8pm, mostly the hard core people are still left, and many of them represent the "radical" part of SF. A little anonymous violence doesn't really faze them.

The next critical mass, I am going to bring a bullhorn, and remind people about personal responsibility and being nice. I am sure for many I might as well yell into a tape recorder and play it back for myself, but I think people who ride in CM should act responsible.

 

[maxyedor]

Sanjuro, what's your point exactly? Because you've personaly never done any vandalism, they don't need a permit to ride though the streets impeding traffic?

It's the hardcore guys causing the trouble, I'll agree with that, wich is exactly why they need to get a permit and pay for the damage that those radical hardcore CM riders are responsible for. You think that they should act responsibly, well that meens they need permits and they need to own up to the damage they cause to other people's personal property, and that they need to hire crews, or get volunteers to clean up the fliers and garbage left behind by CM participants. That would be acting responsibly.

 

[BMXman]

Great, Just great, WTF just what we need. War on the streets. Why can't we all just get along. This blows. NO things are really going to go to hell. This means that stinky might have been right. So i might have to apoligize.

don't worry RR....you have to consider the source:

what she heard was.....

someones lying and we may never find out what truly happened...D

 

[BMXman]

Sanjuro, what's your point exactly? Because you've personaly never done any vandalism, they don't need a permit to ride though the streets impeding traffic?

It's the hardcore guys causing the trouble, I'll agree with that, wich is exactly why they need to get a permit and pay for the damage that those radical hardcore CM riders are responsible for. You think that they should act responsibly, well that meens they need permits and they need to own up to the damage they cause to other people's personal property, and that they need to hire crews, or get volunteers to clean up the fliers and garbage left behind by CM participants. That would be acting responsibly.

hey now WTF...logic and resonable expectations....I shudder at the thought

 

[MikeD]

Hold on there, Skookum, OG does have a point. I think it's irrefutable that if you gather up enough people you'll find yourself with a significant minority of idiots. You see it at concerts, political rallies, and sporting events. And in its perverse way, CM is all of the above. Your argument that soccer mobs are somehow more 'legitimate' because they happen to take place at a sanctioned event is ludicrous. No one is any more accountable when violence breaks out at a football match than if someone shatters a car window during a mass. Look at Italy - a policeman got murdered during a match, with no one in custody. But they didn't arrest the team owners for their 'responsibility' in the crime, did they?

Idiots act like idiots, and then they run away and hide. That's all there is to it. Hate the Mass for giving these people an excuse to act this way, but leave it at that.

Instead of arguing with you, I'll just tell you that your sig is classic for those of us who know the origin. ("Love is a snowmobile racing across a frozen tundra. Suddenly, it flips, pinning you underneath," no? I can't believe I actually remember that. I'm such a f'n geek. But the first girl I ever really fell in love with was a Life in Hell fan, and she bought me Love is Hell for Christmas. Then she tore out my heart with a barbed pitchfork. Now she's a PhD from Harvard and an associate professor at a large university. But she got kinda fat, so I guess I got that going for me, which is nice.)

 

[stevew]

Example: http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177589

Like that topic, this one has been beaten longer and harder than a 14 year old beats his own dick.

 

[pedalmunky]

True dat, Sanjuro. "Battle brewing against cyclists and critical mass"? My biggest problem with the Mass is its lack of cyclists, and the proliferation of hipsters, gutter punks, and over-the-hill hippies who don't even ride on a regular basis, but attend every last Friday because they can sense the potential for confrontation like a shark does blood in the water. These bandwagon jumpers show up on their poorly maintained, or even worse, borrowed bikes and I'm supposed to ride elbow to elbow with them? Watch the beginner class at a downhill race, or a Cat 5 crit, and you won't see more bike crashes than at your average Mass.

Having said that, though, I will admit this: on the Mass rides I've been on, I've seen motorists knife through a pack of cyclists, screaming (from behind rolled up windows, of course) "I'm late for a dinner reservation!"; I've seen indignant cyclists overreact and reduce a woman to tears for trying to make a u-turn to get away from the snarled traffic; but what I've NEVER seen is a person on a bike attack a car unprovoked. Yeah, they may have lost their composure, and property damage is (almost) never defensible, but whoever smashed that window did so as a reaction.

It just happened to be a moronic one. And his running away was a cowardly one. I'm pretty sure that the purpose of critical mass isn't to prove to motorists that cyclists are a bunch of cowardly morons. I mean, they already think we're insane for riding in the streets.

Sanjuro's right. It's all about personal responsibility. Personally, I like being at the front, stopping traffic. I just stand in the intersection, hold up a hand, and smile real big. And I tell the drivers that a whole bunch of bikes are coming through. Usually, when the hundreds (thousands?) of bikes come pouring through, that's enough to dissuade them. And if some fool gets heated enough to keep yelling and even gets out of his car, I just keep smiling and tell them it'll all be over soon. The absurdity of the situation actually defuses the situation. Works a whole lot better than trying to kick in someone's turn signal. Treat drivers like people - in turn, they might begin to think the same of us cyclists.

 

[pedalmunky]

Good eye, MikeD.

 

[sanjuro]

Sanjuro, what's your point exactly? Because you've personaly never done any vandalism, they don't need a permit to ride though the streets impeding traffic?

It's the hardcore guys causing the trouble, I'll agree with that, wich is exactly why they need to get a permit and pay for the damage that those radical hardcore CM riders are responsible for. You think that they should act responsibly, well that meens they need permits and they need to own up to the damage they cause to other people's personal property, and that they need to hire crews, or get volunteers to clean up the fliers and garbage left behind by CM participants. That would be acting responsibly.

That is the kind of logic which says every mountain bike race has be NORBA sponsored.

Flyers? Garbage? Damage to personal property? If those guys got arrested after trashing the car window, I wouldn't complain. I throw my trash in the garbage can, period. I don't need street cleaners riding behind me.

Permits? Keep in mind when this happened:

Bicycle advocates, however, said today that Ferrando did more than tap the bicyclist, and that the incident occurred toward the end of the ride, when there were dozens -- not thousands -- of bicyclists in the area, as Ferrando claims. Bicycle Coalition executive director Leah Shahum said witnesses told her that Ferrando "recklessly accelerated" into a crowd and hit the bicyclist so hard the bike was lodged under her vehicle.

Should I get a permit to ride in groups larger than 5?

I have said this before, I enjoy riding around the city and the social aspect of Critical Mass. I don't need CM to be a jerk-off. I do it well enough by myself.

 

[sanjuro]

Here is a family you can sympathize with:

 

[Red Rabbit]

god damn shes ugly.

 

[maxyedor]

That is the kind of logic which says every mountain bike race has be NORBA sponsored.

Flyers? Garbage? Damage to personal property? If those guys got arrested after trashing the car window, I wouldn't complain. I throw my trash in the garbage can, period. I don't need street cleaners riding behind me.

Again, you're using the logic that if you didn't personaly do something, it never happened. Every city in America has laws against impeeding the flow of traffic, and laws that allow groups to apply for and receive permits allowing them to impeed traffic legaly for a given period of time. Not every mountain bike race needs NORBA sanctioning, but every CM needs permits or I beleive any and all participants should be arrested. CM rides atract hundreds of riders, they stop cars while the group passes and they usually happen durring rush hour, sounds like impeeding traffic to me.

Again just because you put trash in a trash can, that meens everybody else does too? I've seen the aftermath of a CM ride and there are fliers abd trash everywhere, mabye not from you, but somebody had to put it there. It's also pretty well documented that riders damage both public and private property, I didn't say you personaly did, but just because you didn't key a car doesn't absolve all CM riders of any wrongdoing.

I have said this before, I enjoy riding around the city and the social aspect of Critical Mass. I don't need CM to be a jerk-off. I do it well enough by myself.

This is exactly what I'm talking about, you admit to acting like a jackass CM or not, hence drivers get pissed off and start buzzing inocent riders because you acted like a jackass. Bikelanes are for bikes, if there is no bike lane, ride on the right hand side of the lane, if possible allow cars or faster riders to pass. Stop sighns apply to you too, as do red lights "no left hand turn" signs, speed limits, and pedestrian crossings, PERIOD. Cyclists may have the right of way, but that is not a carte blance to disobey traffic laws. I hope you are not retarded enough to think you are above the law, but as a proud participant in CM I'm guessing you may just be that retarded.

 

[pedalmunky]

Dude, I mean this as an observation and not a personal attack, but after reading through your misspellings and grammatical errors, your questioning of anyone's intelligence makes you a hypocrite.

 

[Red Rabbit]

It's a forum, grammer & spelling are not as important as the content of the post.

 

[sanjuro]

This is exactly what I'm talking about, you admit to acting like a jackass CM or not, hence drivers get pissed off and start buzzing inocent riders because you acted like a jackass. Bikelanes are for bikes, if there is no bike lane, ride on the right hand side of the lane, if possible allow cars or faster riders to pass. Stop sighns apply to you too, as do red lights "no left hand turn" signs, speed limits, and pedestrian crossings, PERIOD. Cyclists may have the right of way, but that is not a carte blance to disobey traffic laws. I hope you are not retarded enough to think you are above the law, but as a proud participant in CM I'm guessing you may just be that retarded.

After my ticket in Redwood City (amusingly enough), I have been obeying stop signs and red lights in general.

However, incidents like "Raising the Roof" still continue. I love antagonizing drivers who threaten me.

My favorite tactic is if some car almost hits me, and if I can get in front of it, I will ride in the middle of the lane and prevent the car from passing (which is legal in San Francisco to take a whole lane). Or the punk in a Mustang who gives my group of riders a lecture about blocking the right turn lane (wasn't even affecting him) who almost slams into another car as he speeds away from the red light. I gave him a full "Nelson" laugh which I know he heard.

I can't deny I am being an a-hole, but I am on a vehicle which weighs less than 20lbs dealing with inattentive drivers, people who cut me off because I am on a bike, to drivers who actually are threatening me. If I hurt some feelings, I think that is better than shaking my fist or doing nothing.

 

[maxyedor]

Dude, I mean this as an observation and not a personal attack, but after reading through your misspellings and grammatical errors, your questioning of anyone's intelligence makes you a hypocrite.

I apologize for my spelling and grammar, I'm the first admit that it isn't the best. Type fast, take chances. However I was criticizing him for being a jackass on the roads and supporting a group that hurts cyclists as much as CM does, that, to me, makes him a retard.

Also don't take this as a personal attack, but either you must be an English teacher, or you're paying way too much attention to RM to be noticing minor spelling and grammar mistakes.

 

[pedalmunky]

Sure, but if you're going to accuse someone of mental retardation, you should at least be able to spell 'innocent' with two n's. And if your typing skills are suspect, fine. Just have the presence of mind to re-read what you've written.

Or else you haven't got the right to call anyone mentally incompetent.

Cool?

 

[maxyedor]

Sure, but if you're going to accuse someone of mental retardation, you should at least be able to spell 'innocent' with two n's. And if your typing skills are suspect, fine. Just have the presence of mind to re-read what you've written.

Or else you haven't got the right to call anyone mentally incompetent.

Cool?

It's cool, I don't take comments about my grammer personaly. However I see breaking the law, then whining about geting no respect as a cyslist, and missing an "n" or a silent "e" here and there to be slightly different. From now on I'll try and remember to spell check so that you can read in peace.

 

[pedalmunky]

You missed my point, son. A reasonable human being doesn't call someone stupid by typing out "Your so stupid"(in case anyone out there doesn't get it, that 'your' should be 'you're' in proper usage).

I do think it's funny that you consider calling me "an English teacher" to be some sort of insult.

 

[maxyedor]

You missed my point, son. A reasonable human being doesn't call someone stupid by typing out "Your so stupid"(in case anyone out there doesn't get it, that 'your' should be 'you're' in proper usage).

I do think it's funny that you consider calling me "an English teacher" to be some sort of insult.

Like I said I am profoundly sorry for my minor spelling mistakes, I tend to type in forums as if I were talking to you in person, so there are plenty of run-on sentences and I tend to type then send instead of taking time to proofread, we all have flaws, one of mine is spelling and grammar. I see your point, I just don't agree with it. Had I typed something like "ur teh stoopid" then maybe, but even then I see a difference between poor spelling and blatant disregard for traffic laws, especially coming from a person who admits to getting pissed off when others, motorists in this case, break the very same laws. In fact driving close to a cyclist is not even against the law, as rude as it is; it is not illegal until they actually hit you. My point is that to admit to being an asshole to drivers, then whine when a driver is an asshole to you is not only hypocritical, but down right stupid, as it reflects badly on other cyclists and will only lead to that driver being more of an asshole in the future. To his credit he did say, in one of the threads he linked to, that he did not want equal rights, and by breaking traffic laws and being an asshole to others on the road, it does help ensure that he will not get those rights, but to attend CM, a gathering with a stated purpose of equal rights makes him a hypocrite yet again. Then to state that he never litters or vandalizes as a defense to the accusations, and proven accounts that others do is ridiculous, just as claiming a news report is overly biased, but assuming that the account told 3rd hand by another rider is not slanted.

For the record I was also not trying to insult you by saying you are an English teacher. I have simply noticed, having dated a few, and hung out with plenty of other teachers, that they tend to notice even the most minor grammatical errors.

That is my opinion of the situation, just as your opinion is that my comments are invalid due to a few spelling mistakes

I have run this statement through Word to make sure the grammar is halfway decent, does that make my opinion more or less valid knowing that I can use spell-check?

 

[H8R]

It's a forum, grammer & spelling are not as important as the content of the post.

But they are important. They help convey the content.

Btw - it's spelled grammar.

 

[H8R]

I have run this statement through Word to make sure the grammar is halfway decent, does that make my opinion more or less valid knowing that I can use spell-check?

Less. We all know that one should be able to accurately type 123 WPM with no spell-check turned on to post here.

Wait...didn't you take the RM entrance exam??

 

[maxyedor]

Wait...didn't you take the RM entrance exam??

Nope, I snuck in during the SB kids phase, my poor grammar went entirely unnoticed while they posted topics like "Demo 8 is teh roxors"


I'm sneaky like that.

 

[N8 v2.0]

 

[Wumpus]

fact driving close to a cyclist is not even against the law, as rude as it is; it is not illegal until they actually hit you.

Not entirely true. There are quite few states that have a 3' passing law. Even Texas is considering one.





***This post has not been checked for grammar or spelling.***

 

[sanjuro]

Not every mountain bike race needs NORBA sanctioning, but every CM needs permits or I beleive any and all participants should be arrested.

I, of course, disagree. That kind of logic would imply bicycles should have license plates because they cause accidents.

But the reason why CM participants are not arrested or ticketed for running lights is what happened the last time there were major arrests: http://www.bikesummer.org/1999/zine/superiorCourt.htm

If there is an act of violence, I wholehardedly support an arrest. Of course, you will see about 20 drivers busted every time, and probably no cyclists since the only time riders get mad is when a car hits them.

 

[SlapheadMofo]

F*** pavement.

 

[Jim Mac]

F*** pavement.

Finally, some who makes sense! Sheesh! Dirt, rocks and trees will never attack you, despite the damage you try to inflict on them!

 

[vtjim]

1. These folks are from Redwood City, 20 miles outside of SF.
2. The San Francisco Bicycle Coalition, which has been extremely helpful in creating more bike access, has its roots in Critical Mass. They mention it every month in their calendar.
3. Ever been hit by a minivan?
4. I hope you are not directing your venom at me. I disagree with any violence, particularily the mob mentality.
5. Finally, it sounds like the woman driving was a dumbass. All you have to do is wait and the Critical Mass will roll right by without incident.

I have to say I agree with RedRabbit on this one. It sounds like Critical Mass could and possibly is a good thing, but one incident like this will be remembered more than any good publicity. If you gather enough people together that a mob-mentality can be created, you might have gone too far. That family didn't deserve what happened to them.

And yes, I have been hit by a mini-van.

 

[BMXman]

but what I've NEVER seen is a person on a bike attack a car unprovoked.

l don't know which CM's you have ridden in but I have seen this plenty of times when I rode in them.

Personally, I like being at the front, stopping traffic. I just stand in the intersection, hold up a hand, and smile real big. And I tell the drivers that a whole bunch of bikes are coming through. Usually, when the hundreds (thousands?) of bikes come pouring through, that's enough to dissuade them. And if some fool gets heated enough to keep yelling and even gets out of his car, I just keep smiling and tell them it'll all be over soon.

Hmm.. now lets see if you're abiding by all the traffic laws why would you need to stop traffic. Just because there are a bunch of riders in a large group doesn't mean they get a free pass concerning the traffic laws...cars can't do it so why should CM riders be able to?

There needs to be some kind of police escort involved for that to happen...D

 

[PsychO!1]

The first step to getting respect on the road....is giving respect on the road.
It's worked for me for over 20 years. I've ridden in the city and I've ridden in the country. I've experineced some real assholes on the road, on my bike AND in my car. Just ride your bike like you drive your car or motorcycle, be courtious and respect other users and you will find you get harrassed a lot less. You may still encounter the occasional asshat, but at least you won't be making any new ones.