[Pau11y]

So I got this new steel frame off of ebay and built the sucker up. I took her for her 2nd ride since the build and noticed the shifting was slightly off (not cable stretch-already taken that into account). After I got down from Lookout Mtn, I went first to Peak to see if they'd lend me the dérailleur hanger alignment tool and a 5mm Allen to rule out alignment issues. "No, we don't lend out tools." No explanation except, "...we'll do it for you." Hum, ok. This present a prob when I don't carry $$ on my short rides. So, I go over to Big Ring and their response was again, "...we'll do it for you..." and, "...we don't lend out a tool that's that expensive." The dérailleur alignment tool is about $50.00 retail w/ NOTHING that can possibly break w/ proper use. True, they don't know me from a hole in a wall. But from the tone in their responses, nothing was going to change their mind. And yeah, that's how they get $$ into their till, but come the hell on!
Remedy: since I own a stable of bikes I think I can justify just buying one (online, not at the LBSs). My philosophy now is to-hell w/ the damn chiseling LBSs. Parts, clothing and accessories I'll get online. Fittings I'll go at custom builders shop (Sampson is good for that here in Denver). Tools: anywhere but a LBS. They can kiss that small fleshy seam between my bean bag and chocolate spider! DO YOU FEEL THAT!

 

[indieboy]

you're a tool. do you seriously think you're going to walk into ANY shop on any level whether it's a bike shop, car repair shop, machine shop, whatever and they're going to lend you their expensive tools??? now if it were a small allen key that's one thing but a ****ing deraileur alignment tool? c'mon man.........

 

[SXtrailrider]

true not to be rude but if you were to go to your LBS some more and maybe become a good costumer or friends with some of the mechanics then they might just look the other way and let you borrow a tool here and their. I know at my LBS since i do hang out their a lot that they let me use the tools whenever i want. I just go back and use them and they trust me not to steel them. I also never leave the shop with the tools I stay in the back and work on my bike.

 

[indieboy]

can i borrow your wife?

 

[The Toninator]

for you indyboi? sure.

pau11y for you, eh i would not expect any shop to do me a 'favor' that i didnt know, sometimes happens though and it is nice but shops HAVE to make a buck or its not a shop it's empty rental space.

 

[LordOpie]

my LBS does stuff for free, but I've spent thousands with them and have dropped by with a 12-pack of Fat Tire beer or similar on occassion.

It's relationship development and it goes both ways.

 

[Zutroy]

Yeah, i've had a shop do a der alinement for free. I've also worked at two shops that would let people use any tool for free, so it's not that uncommon. Alot of LBSs need to figure out that good customer service and going outta thier way is the only way to get someone to come in and buy something more expensive than what they can get it online. The ones that are doing well are the ones that do that, then i don't mind spending extra money, cause i know they'll help me out in a pinch.

 

[Pau11y]

can i borrow your wife?

No, but maybe you can borrow Zutroy's brain...

I'd fully understand if the shop was slammin' busy, and to Big Ring, they were therefore I can't fault them too badly. But Peak was empty, not a bike on the stand, not another customer in the store. Maybe it's just me but I'm thinking something like, "Well, can't let the tool leave the front door, but if you want to throw it up on a stand (since we've got nothing going on at the moment), go nuts." Or, the other thing was leave a form of ID at the counter...? The shop I used to work at did the ID thing and it ended up recruiting a couple of very competent mechs from them borrowing higher end/more involved tools. Could be just me, but after Zutroy's comment, I don't think so.

As for relationship building, in the case of retail sales, unfortunately it's about how much money you've spent at said location. Me, I source my hard and soft goods elsewhere so does that mean I'm not worthy of knowing w/ respect to repair? I come in w/ a repair issue which I have the ability to solve, but not the tools. The shop has two avenues to take at this point, to lend the tool or not. Well, the end result of "not" seems every clear. However, the end result of "do" wasn't even given an option prior to visiting "not". At Big Ring, I told the guy I didn't have any coin on me. Could another route for them have been, "swing by w a 6er later..."? I did this when I was doing private consulting for PCs at pplz homes when the solution was only like 5 mins and/or a couple of clicks. They pretty much ALWAYS come w/ a 12 instead of 6. Not the same situation, I know. However, it is about relationship building. My PC customers didn't even hesitate to call me when they ran into trouble again, because I treated them fairly the last time.

So what exactly would it have cost the shop if they said "yes"... About 5 mins during the time it would have taken me to remedy the issue. And even tho I said nothing to them about it, a 6er would have shown up later that day or on Mon (for the use of a tool I didn't have for 5 mins). This could also urge me to visit that shop when I am in need of a part in the future, instead of now, (happily) waiting for it to come from other sources. So the cost was actually in saying "no", correct?

 

[indieboy]

i let ppl use certain things. alignment tools, press tools, facing/chasing/reaming tools......those tools cost a LOT to purchase. i do a **** load of out of my way work, but don't throw out the 'good customer service" bull****. if a shop decides not to let someone use an expensive tool than they are within their right. if they treat the person like absoulate **** while in process of telling them no, then that's another story.

 

[indieboy]

No, but maybe you can borrow Zutroy's brain...

I'd fully understand if the shop was slammin' busy, and to Big Ring, they were therefore I can't fault them too badly. But Peak was empty, not a bike on the stand, not another customer in the store. Maybe it's just me but I'm thinking something like, "Well, can't let the tool leave the front door, but if you want to throw it up on a stand (since we've got nothing going on at the moment), go nuts." Or, the other thing was leave a form of ID at the counter...? The shop I used to work at did the ID thing and it ended up recruiting a couple of very competent mechs from them borrowing higher end/more involved tools. Could be just me, but after Zutroy's comment, I don't think so.

As for relationship building, in the case of retail sales, unfortunately it's about how much money you've spent at said location. Me, I source my hard and soft goods elsewhere so does that mean I'm not worthy of knowing w/ respect to repair? I come in w/ a repair issue which I have the ability to solve, but not the tools. The shop has two avenues to take at this point, to lend the tool or not. Well, the end result of "not" seems every clear. However, the end result of "do" wasn't even given an option prior to visiting "not". At Big Ring, I told the guy I didn't have any coin on me. Could another route for them have been, "swing by w a 6er later..."? I did this when I was doing private consulting for PCs at pplz homes when the solution was only like 5 mins and/or a couple of clicks. They pretty much ALWAYS come w/ a 12 instead of 6. Not the same situation, I know. However, it is about relationship building. My PC customers didn't even hesitate to call me when they ran into trouble again, because I treated them fairly the last time.

So what exactly would it have cost the shop if they said "yes"... About 5 mins during the time it would have taken me to remedy the issue. And even tho I said nothing to them about it, a 6er would have shown up later that day or on Mon (for the use of a tool I didn't have for 5 mins). This could also urge me to visit that shop when I am in need of a part in the future, instead of now, (happily) waiting for it to come from other sources. So the cost was actually in saying "no", correct?

you just stated that the situation didn't equate.
they do have 2 avenues to take. they said no. you also have two avenues to take. be mature and accept the fact that they told you no or rant and rave like a 4 yr old child.

you also have to take into account the risk for some of those employees to say yes. some store managers aren't exactly very nice about letting things slide. it's all about time. time = money to them. if one of those employees said yes and got reamed for it later OR something happens to you and/or your bike while in stand while you are working on it and you freak out about it then **** hits the fan. i've personally had to deal with this for letting someone use an expensive tool and they claimed they knew what they were doing and completely ****ed their frame then turned around and blamed me and the shop for it. not a fun situation to deal with.

 

[Pau11y]

You're right, it is absolutely within their right to not lend out a tool. As such, it's also absolutely my right to spend my money w/ an online shop vs a LBS what won't flex. Reread my original post about how they said "no".
One note worth mentioning, the counter guy at Peak didn't say no right away. He looked at the empty work area and deferred the question to the "manager" in the back. It was the guy in the back that said 'no' with a finality that I didn't even need to try any further.

 

[LordOpie]

lending you tool = good customer service

not lending you the tool != bad service.

 

[Zutroy]

i let ppl use certain things. alignment tools, press tools, facing/chasing/reaming tools......those tools cost a LOT to purchase. i do a **** load of out of my way work, but don't throw out the 'good customer service" bull****. if a shop decides not to let someone use an expensive tool than they are within their right. if they treat the person like absoulate **** while in process of telling them no, then that's another story.

True it is within thier right to say no, but what's it going to cost them to say no. The shop here that i use is the one that helped me out free of charge when i moved here. I flew out with just my road bike, while my car was in route with the movers, since i worked in the town i was going to live i decided not to have the company get me a car to use. The TSA people didn't put things back in the box right after they inspected it, and my rear end got bent up, it was riding and shifting like crap, so i stopped in and they fixed it for free, they've now done a couple grand in business with me because of the service, if it hadn't been for that, I'd get it all online.

Also while the tools are expensive compared to an allen set, we're talking about $100-200 tools here retail not 1-2k, and I think it's safe to say anyone who even knows what most of those tools are is going to have some skill in using them.

 

[Pau11y]

Also, for a roadie shop(s), I think all they would have needed to see how the tool was going to be treated is step out and check out the bike the tool was going to be used on and how it's been set up.

Zutroy, it was a $50.00-$60.00 tool. If it was a cutting tool, I'd understand more.

 

[Zutroy]

Also, for a roadie shop(s), I think all they would have needed to see how the tool was going to be treated is step out and check out the bike the tool was going to be used on and how it's been set up.

Zutroy, it was a $50.00-$60.00 tool. If it was a cutting tool, I'd understand more.

Also, what's the difference between that, and letting someone go out and test ride a 5k bike? You're taking a chance they might damage that also, but it's part of selling, so you let them do it.

 

[indieboy]

they damage the bike it's their's. tools they are just going to look at you and go "oh sorry"

 

[rooftest]

Uh. $50 - $60 is kind of an expensive tool in my book - certainly not one I'd lend to the type of guy who goes riding with no money in his pockets.

 

[Pau11y]

Uh. $50 - $60 is kind of an expensive tool in my book - certainly not one I'd lend to the type of guy who goes riding with no money in his pockets.

Unlike your rides, mine doesn't involve stopping at a bar every mile and doing shots. So the need for large amounts of money on a ride around my house isn't a requirement. Thanx for chimming in tho...:wonky2:

 

[Zutroy]

they damage the bike it's their's. tools they are just going to look at you and go "oh sorry"

Actually unless you sign a waiver that says you're responsable for any damage to the bike, the shop would have to eat it.

 

[rooftest]

Unlike your rides, mine doesn't involve stopping at a bar every mile and doing shots. So the need for large amounts of money on a ride around my house isn't a requirement. Thanx for chimming in tho...:wonky2:

Whatever, jackass. It's obvious you expect everything for free, anyway.

 

[Pau11y]

Whatever, jackass. It's obvious you expect everything for free, anyway.

Hey lawndart (isn't that pretty much the result of your handle?), who chimmed in and started insulting who? "Jackass"? Here ya go; you're da man! :teacher:

Edit: and yes, I like "free". Free is good. However, judging from your responses, "MONEY" is the be-all end-all of your equations. Here's a "FREE" clue, bartering, is often better than MONEY exchange.

 

[-dustin]

i believe i would've lent you one, but you would've had to use my stand, and i would've been watching you. i would've also given you one of the Park derailleur alignment tools, as i think they're quite inferior to the Shimano one i use. wish i could find one of those Shimano ones for sale.

 

[sanjuro]

Before I worked at my shop, I came in and threw some money around: I bought some minor stuff and a workstand. I hung around a few more times, made nice, and one day I came in and asked nicely if I could use their truing stand and a spoke wrench. They said sure.

You wander into a shop which you apparently never been there before and you ask if you could use their hanger tool. From my perspective as a shop employee, it is a hard one to justify, and your response, which is angry and unpleasant, seems to justify those shops' refusal.

Without being confrontational, one thing I would comment if you broke your own hanger in my work area, there is the possibility that I would have to take responsibility for it. This is why I try not to assist people fixing their own flat tires inside the shop, because most of the time I end up giving them a tube and doing it for them for free.

Another point is that your bike did work, but just shifted poorly. You could ride home on a bent hanger, even one badly bent. I am very likely to help for no charge if they are stuck, but not to convenience a stranger.

Finally, if you had asked nicely, there is a possibility they would have done it for a minor charge. One time, a customer wanted to borrow a chain tool to put on his chain which he did not buy from us. I offered to put it on for $5. He refused and rather drive to Berkeley to go to a bike co-op than pay the nomimal charge.

 

[Pau11y]

Hehehe, thanx. When I was asking, I'd taken a "L" angle w/ a M8 bolt welded on it and a pencil. I would have loved a stand as well as flipping the bike over and setting it on some Dura Ace brifters doesn't sit too well w/ me
But you kinda have a clue of my teching skills from our discussions of wheels, wheel building and whatnot so perhaps you're a bit biased.
Point besides, I think they lost some revenue w/ their "no" today. It may not be tomorrow or Mon, but overall, they lost revenue.

 

[sanjuro]

Point besides, I think they lost some revenue w/ their "no" today. It may not be tomorrow or Mon, but overall, they lost revenue.

What revenue is that? You haven't a dime in your LBS, and it sounds like you never planning on it in the future.

Hey, you're mad that no one helped you. But don't act like they owe you something.

Ever go into an auto repair shop and ask them to borrow one of their tools? How about a woodworking place? Or any other repair service? Why is the bike shop different?

 

[Pau11y]

Before I worked at my shop, I came in and threw some money around: I bought some minor stuff and a workstand. I hung around a few more times, made nice, and one day I came in and asked nicely if I could use their truing stand and a spoke wrench. They said sure.

You wander into a shop which you apparently never been there before and you ask if you could use their hanger tool. From my perspective as a shop employee, it is a hard one to justify, and your response, which is angry and unpleasant, seems to justify those shops' refusal.

Without being confrontational, one thing I would comment if you broke your own hanger in my work area, there is the possibility that I would have to take responsibility for it. This is why I try not to assist people fixing their own flat tires inside the shop, because most of the time I end up giving them a tube and doing it for them for free.

Another point is that your bike did work, but just shifted poorly. You could ride home on a bent hanger, even one badly bent. I am very likely to help for no charge if they are stuck, but not to convenience a stranger.

Finally, if you had asked nicely, there is a possibility they would have done it for a minor charge. One time, a customer wanted to borrow a chain tool to put on his chain which he did not buy from us. I offered to put it on for $5. He refused and rather drive to Berkeley to go to a bike co-op than pay the nomimal charge.

I know exactly where you were coming from w/ the honey vs. salt approach. However, I didn't start out salty. My approach was, "Hello. How's it going. I was wondering if I can bum a big favor? My shifting is a bit off and I don't think it's the cable. Do you think it's possible for me to borrow your derailleur alignment tool and a 5mm Allen to check to see if it's my hanger alignment?"
Response: (paraphrased) "We can do it for you... But no, that tool is too expensive to lend out."
Me: "I'm not carrying any coin w/ me." (shrugging)
Response: (walking away and not even looking at me at this point) "...then sorry." in a rather dismissive tone.

I'm pretty certain I wasn't rude or salty w anyone. And, I didn't come out and call or suggest that someone was a jackass, unlike lawndart.

I'm upset because I was generally dismissed as a joke. Maybe I didn't dress quite right, or was sweating a little too much. But if I was someone in the business helping ppl fix their bikes (say a mechanic which I was a while back) and a person walks in and sounds off as I did, summarily dismissing them as 'couldn't handle it even if I did lend it to him' prob would not be the approach I'd take. I guess it's just me... Oh wait, from the responses on this post, I guess it's NOT just me. Sorry Sanjuro if it sounds like I'm being salty towards you, not intensional.

 

[Pau11y]

What revenue is that? You haven't a dime in your LBS, and it sounds like you never planning on it in the future.

Hey, you're mad that no one helped you. But don't act like they owe you something.

Ever go into an auto repair shop and ask them to borrow one of their tools? How about a woodworking place? Or any other repair service? Why is the bike shop different?

You're definitely right on the future thing now. But since I've only been in this location less than one year, and I moved to this location w/ a good stock of spares, and school schedule, I didn't need to, or was available to visit these shops until now. But the stock I got, from my previous location, some of it was from my LBS there. However, my stock will now be replenished via the 'net and not these two shops as I need them in the future.

 

[sanjuro]

I know exactly where you were coming from w/ the honey vs. salt approach. However, I didn't start out salty. My approach was, "Hello. How's it going. I was wondering if I can bum a big favor? My shifting is a bit off and I don't think it's the cable. Do you think it's possible for me to borrow your derailleur alignment tool and a 5mm Allen to check to see if it's my hanger alignment?"
Response: (paraphrased) "We can do it for you... But no, that tool is too expensive to lend out."
Me: "I'm not carrying any coin w/ me." (shrugging)
Response: (walking away and not even looking at me at this point) "...then sorry." in a rather dismissive tone.

I'm pretty certain I wasn't rude or salty w anyone. And, I didn't come out and call or suggest that someone was a jackass, unlike lawndart.

I'm upset because I was generally dismissed as a joke. Maybe I didn't dress quite right, or was sweating a little too much. But if I was someone in the business helping ppl fix their bikes (say a mechanic which I was a while back) and a person walks in and sounds off as I did, summarily dismissing them as 'couldn't handle it even if I did lend it to him' prob would not be the approach I'd take. I guess it's just me... Oh wait, from the responses on this post, I guess it's NOT just me. Sorry Sanjuro if it sounds like I'm being salty towards you, not intensional.

Well then, you might have a point. If you ask nice, and they said beat it, well screw them.

I would have done it for you, particularly since it is steel, and make you promise to pay the shop. If you do, great we have another customer, if not then your unfulfilled promise should keep you away.

 

[The Toninator]

So the need for large amounts of money on a ride around my house isn't a requirement.

first aid kit:
Cellphone
ID
Credit Card
Insurance card (with emergency contact numbers on back)
10/20 buck

 

[Pau11y]

Well then, you might have a point. If you ask nice, and they said beat it, well screw them.

I would have done it for you, particularly since it is steel, and make you promise to pay the shop. If you do, great we have another customer, if not then your unfulfilled promise should keep you away.

That was the page I was shooting for, but apparently, they don't have that book. If they said, "don't worry about it..." then I would have shown up later w/ a 6 of Sammy As or Pacificos or something...

first aid kit:
Cellphone
ID
Credit Card
Insurance card (with emergency contact numbers on back)
10/20 buck

I typically have the cell and ID on me. But unless I go over 10 miles from the house, I don't carry the money. As for health insurance, right now I don't have any as the school insurance doesn't cover summers.

 

[The Toninator]

I typically have the cell and ID on me. But unless I go over 10 miles from the house, I don't carry the money. As for health insurance, right now I don't have any as the school insurance doesn't cover summers.

a credit card can be an important tool in this situation(no insurance) (and it would have served as fiduciary facilitator.)

 

[binary visions]

Meh, Pau11y, I have to agree with most of these guys. You want favors from your LBS, you have to develop a relationship with them. If you want the convenience and the price of online shopping, then you need to make that sacrifice: you won't develop a good relationship, and favors will be hard to come by.

If you walked into a random mechanic shop and asked to use their oil filter wrench, they wouldn't give it to you. If you walked into a local taylor and asked to stitch a button on with their sewing machine, they wouldn't let you. You are asking them to give you, for free, what they make their profit off of.

If I had walked into my last LBS and asked for the same thing? The guy would have pulled what he was working on off the stand and done it on the spot. I bought a bike, sold a bike to my dad, sold a bike to my sister, bought most of my tools, and all of my small goods there (tires, lube, helmets, etc.). I spent money to develop that relationship, and you expect free favors from just walking in?

 

[binary visions]

Incidentally, I don't fault you for stopping and asking, that was certainly reasonable to at least give it a shot. But I do fault you for considering that a reason not to support your LBS.

 

[Ian F]

If I had walked into my last LBS and asked for the same thing? The guy would have pulled what he was working on off the stand and done it on the spot. I bought a bike, sold a bike to my dad, sold a bike to my sister, bought most of my tools, and all of my small goods there (tires, lube, helmets, etc.). I spent money to develop that relationship, and you expect free favors from just walking in?

Agreed. I tend to avoid lending out my tools and ouldn't expect a shop to either.

I did have a similar experience, although with better results. I was on a road ride a few weeks ago when my rear brake started rubbing. I was near a local shop so I pulled in to se if they could do a quick trueing. A first, he asked me to leave the wheel with him... I kinda stared at him and looked down at the road shoes on my feet: He then kinda realized that as stupid thing to ask... It took a bit of doing, but eventually I was able to get the wheel straightened up enough so I could get home. I did give him a $10 tip for his troubles.

I never expect free service and I carry my cell phone and money with me regardless if I'm riding 10 miles or 100. It doesn't matter if I'm walking into a new shop or my LBS that I've shopped at for nearly 25 years.

It also didn't hurt that my road bike is a '97 Colnago Master Bi-Titan which is something of a rare bike and any true bike geek likes to look at it.

 

[sanjuro]

BTW, I always carry my wallet with me. What weight I could I possibly save?

 

[axlvid23]

lending you tool = good customer service

not lending you the tool != bad service.

Do you not realize that it is a liability to lend out any tool? Not only that, a bike shop is a terribly difficult business to own and run...They hardly make any money without you walking in and demanding to use their tools (a business expense) for free to do a job they wouldn't charge more than 5-8 bucks for to do correctly. If you want to use the tool, buy it.

 

[Zutroy]

They hardly make any money without you walking in and demanding to use their tools (a business expense) for free to do a job they wouldn't charge more than 5-8 bucks for to do correctly.

Ummmmm alot of shops are actually doing quit well these days.

 

[LordOpie]

Do you not realize that it is a liability to lend out any tool? Not only that, a bike shop is a terribly difficult business to own and run...They hardly make any money without you walking in and demanding to use their tools (a business expense) for free to do a job they wouldn't charge more than 5-8 bucks for to do correctly. If you want to use the tool, buy it.

do you know what "!=" means?

 

[Serial Midget]

Hmmmm... no comment except to say that in this life you only get what you give. Sorry you think so little of your LBS, mine pretty much rocks my world.

 

[binary visions]

Want to know a good reason not to support your LBS?

Buying 5ft of shifter housing, 2 shifter cables, and 6 cable ferrules and having the total be $40 .

Hadn't been into the shop before and the guy helped me out a few weeks ago with a bike box to ship a frame in. So I went in to buy some small parts today that I needed for an upcoming build.

Turns out they charge a buck apiece for cable ferrules (!!), and $4/foot for standard shifter housing. Looks like I won't be developing a good relationship with them - I just won't patronize a shop that supports that kind of price gouging. AND he treated me like a moron.

Too bad. I like supporting local bike shops, but this is my only local shop. I went out and bought some PVC pipe for a crown race setter and assembled my own star nut setter at lunch - those two things and a headset press are basically the only items I need to be completely self-sufficient. Guess I'm shopping entirely online now.