[sanjuro]

I am in the process of ordering a "semi-custom" ti hardtail from Seven. I have a Seven Axiom already, and after some debate, I realized for what I wanted can only be made custom.

I wanted an all-mountain/xc hardtail, light but strong, with a low standover height and designed around a 100mm Marzocchi Marathon, which is 25mm more axle-to-crown than its competitors. Most hardtails are either 80mm-rim brake jobs or 150mm freeride killers.

I am also planning on riding it on the road as a wet-weather beater and mount a rack for touring/commuting (which is not as simple with a bike which will come disc brake only).

While Seven is normally a fully custom bike, like my Axiom, I am ordering a Signature Size. This is a stock size and geometry which is built around your weight and riding style by manipulating tube size. However, the people at Seven are nice enough to adjust the build for me.

I am ordering a 17" with a 22.75 top tube, but I asked for a 16" seat tube for more clearance. I told them my bar choice (flat) and stem length (9-10cm), as well as the front-center measurement, which is the same for road bike and my current mountain bike.

I think the process of deciding your geometry is very interesting, and I look forward to long rides on my new bike.

 

[The Toninator]

neat.

 

[bjanga]

What kind of head angle and BB height (static) do you want? I am surprised you mention stem length but not those things.

 

[particle bored]

Most hardtails are either 80mm-rim brake jobs or 150mm freeride killers.

Huh. I guess you haven't looked very hard. But most who buy Seven frames aren't interested in looking beyond, say, Seven or Moots.

I agree with the poster who wonders why you aren't customizing anything beyond stem length and seat tube length. Seems a real waste of $$$ to customize two seperate measurements that will be found on other frames if you look around.

FWIW, good steel frames ride better and are much cheaper than any Ti frame.

But no doubt, those who build with Ti make more money than those who build with steel.

 

[skinny mike]

sometime in the future i hope to get a custom hardtail. i'll probably go with a steel indy fab once i can afford it.

 

[BIRDMAN111]

getting a custom frame must be pretty expensive. dont want to be rude but how much is it gonna cost you?

 

[blue]

Most hardtails are either 80mm-rim brake jobs or 150mm freeride killers.

EXACTLY! That's so annoying...

I want a hardtail with a 69.5-70 degree HT and "all-mountain" chainstays (eg, not an XC boat) and designed around a 4 inch fork. I want to be able to race XC on it, but still use it as a trailbike withoug being annoyed.

Is that too much to ask?

 

[bjanga]

^ is that not the chameleon?

 

[reflux]

^ is that not the chameleon?

Kinda, but I think Sanjuro wants the geometry dialed in EXACTLY how he wants it. Off the top of my head, I don't think the geometry on the Chameleon is what he's looking for. Plus, that is a stiff f'n frame. My old Surly Instigator, bless its heart, was smooth on the trails, but it felt better with a 5" fork than a 4".

 

[BIRDMAN111]

i dont think wether something has as 22.25 inch top tube or a 23 inch top tube should really matter. if it is really comming down to a single degree or two in the seat tube angle then i think your getting a little picky about miniscule things like that. as a great man once said, "the trail isnt true so your wheels shouldnt be either"

 

[sanjuro]

What kind of head angle and BB height (static) do you want? I am surprised you mention stem length but not those things.

I wanted a 70 degree head angle, based on the measurement for a 100mm Marzocchi (I believe 476mm axle-to-crown).

 

[bjanga]

I think the chameleon is a steepish 70 - 71 with 480mm A-C.

I searched the market a month ago and remember every hardtail having a 69 degree head angle with a 5" fork.

blue, I think the sinister ridge has the HA you want. It is kinda heavy at 4.5+ pounds and $$$, if I remember correctly.

 

[sanjuro]

Huh. I guess you haven't looked very hard. But most who buy Seven frames aren't interested in looking beyond, say, Seven or Moots.

I agree with the poster who wonders why you aren't customizing anything beyond stem length and seat tube length. Seems a real waste of $$$ to customize two seperate measurements that will be found on other frames if you look around.

FWIW, good steel frames ride better and are much cheaper than any Ti frame.

But no doubt, those who build with Ti make more money than those who build with steel.

I suppose you are someone who can't figure it out for yourself, so I will explain a little further to calm your doubts.

I talked in length about many aspects of my frame build. I spent ten minutes asking about the rack mount for a disc only frame (a simple solution: braze the eyelets above the dropouts). Some things I did not require a custom fit, like head tube length, which is part of a complete fitting.

I discussed head angle for a while, but 70 degrees was agreed upon rather quickly, but I pointed out while I could get that angle with any frame with the right fork height, the seat angle would not be correct (73 degrees), especially with a very high a-c with a Marzocchi.

In a follow-up today, the technican pointed out that my request for clearance for a 2.3 tire would length the chainstays, something which I was unwilling to do, and I accepted that I would have to run a 2.1 tire.

The part which you totally missed is the right tube sizes for my riding style and weight. One point that people do not realize about a stock frame is the same tubes are used for people who weigh 140lbs or 240lbs, as long as either person was the same height. If it is not obvious, weight is a big factor in how a frame rides, and the 140lber could be a masher where the 240lber is a spinner.

Many stock frames uses the same tube size whether it is for a XS or a XL.

Even if I did not change one measurement on a Signature Size, they ask for your riding style, weight, and preferences. For example, they spec'ed a 3 on the Vertical Compliance scale from Comfortable (1) to Stiff (10). I am going to tweak that up to 4. BTW, if anyone thinks I should put down 10, they will build such a stiff frame that it will rattle my teeth.

Finally, thanks for your opinion about steel riding better than Ti. I raced on a steel frame for a decade, alu for 2 seasons, then my Axiom Ti to the podium of the Connecticut State Championships.

Titanium to me is the right balance of strength, weight, durability, and ride quality. Steel is close, but one thing that matters to me: no paint jobs needed on Ti bikes. Steel frames look like crap after a few years of wear and tear on their paint jobs.

 

[sanjuro]

I think the chameleon is a steepish 70 - 71 with 480mm A-C.

I searched the market a month ago and remember every hardtail having a 69 degree head angle with a 5" fork.

blue, I think the sinister ridge has the HA you want. It is kinda heavy at 4.5+ pounds and $$$, if I remember correctly.

I thought about the Chamleon, but besides being aluminum, which I would not want for touring, the first picture I saw killed it for me: it was spec'ed with a big ass Nixon.

I think it is a good frame, but I already have an alu hardtail, a Torrent, which is heavy but strong. I won't be dropping stairs or heading to the dj park with my new bike, but I could. I have taken the Torrent off road and it is a bit of a pig.

 

[madfatter]

I just got a chamelion and it rides great. I posted the pics of it a couple weeks ago. I was also looking for a trailbike that I can fart around town on but still do a little XC. It's a fun bike, but I have to get used to the laid back geometry. The cool thing about it, though is that you can ride a 2.3 rear, but the chainstays are still only 18" or so. It's really responsive. I don't think I'm near the level of riding you're at but I really like it. Yeah, it's stiff, but it made me realize when I hit that first dip in the trail just how bad my riding technique is. I had a cushy full susser and my fat ass just go used to sitting though the dips and ruts where I really think it was actually making me ride harder.

 

[BIRDMAN111]

i dont think wether something has as 22.25 inch top tube or a 23 inch top tube should really matter. if it is really comming down to a single degree or two in the seat tube angle then i think your getting a little picky about miniscule things like that. as a great man once said, "the trail isnt true so your wheels shouldnt be either"

haha i guess you guys dont agree

 

[bjanga]

haha i guess you guys dont agree

I disagree. If you could choose between a sharp knife and a dull knife to prepare your food with, would you use the dull one?

 

[BIRDMAN111]

that is a terrible comparison. its better to say, "would you choose to have a knife with a 6.75inch long blade and a 2.33inch section that is serraded at the base of the blade. or a knife with a 5.66 inch long blade and a 3in serraded section at the base of the blade." which would be better for skinning a rabbit with? both knives will do the job exceptionaly well, which one you use wont affect anything because it DOESNT MATTER. if you had a 45degree head tube instead of a 69degree head tube, it would matter, but the difference between two degrees wont change a thing

your anallagy is like saying, "Would you like an old, rusty trek 820 frame or a new oreba one?"

 

[blue]

Thats the other thing...I'd like it to weigh around 3-3.5 lbs. The Ridge is heavy, and so's the Chameleon...the Chameleon has some whacky geo too with a 4 inch fork.

 

[bjanga]

My trek SLR hardtail weighed like 3.25 lbs I think. I do not follow XC, but 3.5 lbs. sounds like rim-brake-jobbie to me.

 

[blue]

Trek has never made an aluminum hardtail that weighed under 3.5lbs...

It's not tough to make a semi-durable hardtail that weighs 3 lbs. Not rim brake jobbie, just light. I'm not going to break a frame riding XC and "trail".

 

[bjanga]

I will take your word for it.

I guess this is kinda the same idea as 5" and 6" travel XC rigs.

 

[ito]

that is a terrible comparison. its better to say, "would you choose to have a knife with a 6.75inch long blade and a 2.33inch section that is serraded at the base of the blade. or a knife with a 5.66 inch long blade and a 3in serraded section at the base of the blade." which would be better for skinning a rabbit with? both knives will do the job exceptionaly well, which one you use wont affect anything because it DOESNT MATTER. if you had a 45degree head tube instead of a 69degree head tube, it would matter, but the difference between two degrees wont change a thing

your anallagy is like saying, "Would you like an old, rusty trek 820 frame or a new oreba one?"

The difference between a 71*, 70*, or 69* HA on the same bike can be huge. You are changing wheel base, bb height, handlebar height, along with relaxing or steepening the headtube. My Kona Chute (great geometry, but a tad heavy) was a completely different beast depending on which travel fork I had and consequently what the head angle was.

Yes, it can get very picky and all, but dialing in a bike to your EXACT likings is truly awesome. I've got a bike that was custom fit for me and I love it. Doesn't mean I can't ride a different bike with stock geometry and sizing just fine, but getting what I want in a bike is a bit different than that.

The Ito

 

[sanjuro]

i dont think wether something has as 22.25 inch top tube or a 23 inch top tube should really matter. if it is really comming down to a single degree or two in the seat tube angle then i think your getting a little picky about miniscule things like that. as a great man once said, "the trail isnt true so your wheels shouldnt be either"

Well, .75 of an inch is about 2 cm, which if added to stem length would dramatically change the handling.

The head angle is not a bad point, but different forks at different heights make a big difference. Lets say I wanted to run a SID at 80mm (444mm axle-to-crown) or the Marathon at 125 (499mm). That is a 55 mm difference, which would be 2 degree difference in the head angle, which has a huge effect on handling.

 

[sanjuro]

Keep in mind that a custom geometry frame is not for anyone. My next suspension bike won't be custom geometry.

Part of this process is that working for a Seven dealer, I do have the opportunity which I might not be able to afford. This has also been a great learning experience about geometry, which is why I posted it in the first place.

I could have just accepted the stock Signature Size with no discussion, but I have enjoyed it so far.

 

[OGRipper]

Nice, criticizing the guy for being a bike geek and getting what he wants. It's a bike site for chrissakes, does he really have to justify his passion/obsession?

I mean, come on, he's getting a custom Seven as a part-time "beater." This has nothing to do with what he needs - it's about experiencing the process, indulging in what he loves, and getting a sweet bike that is all his own. Custom bikes are fun like that.

Enjoy.

 

[sanjuro]

Nice, criticizing the guy for being a bike geek and getting what he wants. It's a bike site for chrissakes, does he really have to justify his passion/obsession?

I mean, come on, he's getting a custom Seven as a part-time "beater." This has nothing to do with what he needs - it's about experiencing the process, indulging in what he loves, and getting a sweet bike that is all his own. Custom bikes are fun like that.

Enjoy.

Thanks OG. I posted this for informational purposes, as well as to vet my own process. Plus, you know I like internet debate!

You are correct though that this a part time "beater". In the winter, I think it will be my primary bike, but in the other seasons, I will be riding either my road bike or a full-sus.

 

[Mudpuppy]

...it DOESNT MATTER. if you had a 45degree head tube instead of a 69degree head tube, it would matter, but the difference between two degrees wont change a thing.

I think what you mean is YOU can't tell the difference between 2 degrees of head angle. Some of us can. On my current bike the difference between a 26" front wheel and a 24" front wheel.. ~2* for the math challanged makes the difference between a horribly twitchy bike that I hate to ride and a bike that feels perfect and is just everytime I throw a leg over it.

 

[The Toninator]

the idea of buying a brand new custom seven as a 'beater' makes me snicker a little.

 

[sanjuro]

the idea of buying a brand new custom seven as a 'beater' makes me snicker a little.

when you are a playa, a ti bike is just a ride...

 

[reflux]

when you are a playa, a ti bike is just a ride...

In this case, you should pass on the bike so that a real playa can have it.

 

[The Toninator]

ah!

"Cuz daz da way we roll b!tch3s!!!"

 

[sanjuro]

In this case, you should pass on the bike so that a real playa can have it.

if you step, haters get taken out.

 

[reflux]

if you step, haters get taken out.

a'ight, wachu gotz?!


I have a steel road bike and hardtail, and a non-functional Turner.

 

[sanjuro]

Desert Eagle to the Dome...

 

[sanjuro]

getting a custom frame must be pretty expensive. dont want to be rude but how much is it gonna cost you?

I rather not say, but I am an employee of a Seven dealer and I believe the current retail cost is $2100 for a frame.

I am paying less than that, otherwise I would not be getting a Seven.

 

[BIRDMAN111]

Nice, criticizing the guy for being a bike geek and getting what he wants. It's a bike site for chrissakes, does he really have to justify his passion/obsession?

I mean, come on, he's getting a custom Seven as a part-time "beater." This has nothing to do with what he needs - it's about experiencing the process, indulging in what he loves, and getting a sweet bike that is all his own. Custom bikes are fun like that.

Enjoy.

i just think you are obsessing on virtualy meaningless things, when you should just be out riding, because that is what hes supposed to be induging himself in right? and saying that a centimeter or two on the head tube will DRASTICLY change the handling of the bike and SOMEHOW make you a better rider is b.s. the only true thing that will make you ride faster is by riding. another quote, "its not the bike thats fast, its the rider" and an example of this is a guy named jeff, who rides a 243 racing frame, with a minute and bb7s...and guess what he freaking toasted all the dhers (with huge mountain cycles and 888s) downhilling on his hard tail with a minute (ask sirknight6). another example; my friend paul buschie went out to a pro road bike race his fullsusption yeti frame, a 130fox fork and 2.3in tires and guess what, he toasted all the road riders on their "ideal" geometry road bikes, carbon fiber, and virtualy no pedal bob. you cant argue with that.

real bikers dont need the nicest or fanciest things to have fun or rippit on the mountain, just a good, reliable bike, and a passion for riding

and if you indulging in your hobbie is spending uber amounts of money on useless extravagances then maybe you should reconsider be on this forum, because this forum is for real bikers.

 

[reflux]

lots and lots of words

Ahahaha....
































ahaha...

 

[blue]

crap

You're a retard.

 

[sanjuro]

real bikers dont need the nicest or fanciest things to have fun or rippit on the mountain, just a good, reliable bike, and a passion for riding

and if you indulging in your hobbie is spending uber amounts of money on useless extravagances then maybe you should reconsider be on this forum, because this forum is for real bikers.

I am the kind of person who buys really nice bikes and then rides them.

In 2003, I bought a Seven Axiom Ti, and in the first 2 months I did a 145 mile solo ride and won a bronze medal at the Ct criterium championships.

My first mountain bike was an Independent Fabrications Deluxe, which was overkill for a new mountain biker. With this bike, I toured on the road from Seattle to San Francisco and I rode the entire Kokopelli trail unsupported as well.

I am not going to change my name to Berrencloth or Overend with this bike. I am just going to ride it alot.