[JMAC]

Monkey please I no some of you are very could racers and very fit atleast i think so. I'm 15 and i raced all this summer and did very well won a few medals and was mathcing times of crasy guys who have been racing since they were seven and take it very seriously.
However there are still a number of them who can beat me and by a long distance.
So i have no more races till Mid may next yaer unfortunenlty but thats what happens in Quebec.
I have read much of "The Mountain Bikers training bible but i have found it quite confusing and they have a section about juniors and the guys suggestions are redigulus if you actual want to win in Quebec at least.
So can any of you help me make a training plan i'd love you for it.:love:

If this helps I wake up at 6:30am eat go to school.
I get home and am ready to train at 3PM Than I have at the most 3 hours to train each day cause of homework and all that stuff.
I can get acsess to the school weight room after school.
One thing I want to know is if running is okay for biking and if it will make me faster is there any pros and cons to running? Also in the winter i can XC ski cause my mom is one of the directors at a big ski club and i would consider XC ski racing if it will make me a faster biker cause i don't want to be stuck inside on a trainer all winter.
Any elp you can give will be much appreciated.
Thanks

 

[Heidi]

Well, trying to build a training plan is very complex, as you can probably see now from the Joel Friel book.

Tell me this:

When are your 4 most important races next year?

Do you have a trainer you can use doing the winter?

When is the weather ok that you can ride outside and train?

 

[Serial Midget]

Running is an excellent alternate training activity that you might consider doing 2 times a week for improved cardio performance.

Triathletes are good examples of what running can do for your overall fitness.

If you have not run before and would like to start I can take the time to post tips. I do not reccomend road running because it can be hard on your joints - I do trail running and it's a blast!

 

[Topaz]

Skiing is an excellent way to build strength. Greg Lemond was a skier before he became a legend In the off season you should work on strength and endurance if possible.

 

[JMAC]

Well the most important races are hard to say I'm doing the whole Quebec cup series which start in the middle of may and continues every 2nd weekend. I will most likely be doing some small races in bettween but the don't matter, I also plan to do the Raid Outback again which is 55km and thats the first week of July.
Also the Riad hors senteir thats in the middle of June and thats 180km over 2 days.
But really the Quebec cups are the most important.

I don't have a trainer yet but i will get one i'm looking into them now but i'll proble wait till almost Christmas cause i can bike till than.
The weather is good till mid december and yes i'm interrested in running.
Thanks

 

[Serial Midget]

The first rule of running is quality shoes fitted by an experienced runner, experienced runners seldom work at large department stores or discount chains. Not all shoes are created equally so expertise in this area is crucial.

Second… since you already race you are probably in pretty good shape and could run a 10K right now. That does not mean you should; you are more likely to become injured because you muscles will be able to propel you faster than your joints and connective tissue can handle. Running is much harder on the body than cycling, you need to work into slowly and find out exactly what you can do without causing pain.

I personally recommend trail running on the exact same trails you mtb on. Running on the road is excellent training for road running and road cycling where a steady pace is key. Running on trails is good for XC endurance, the constant up and down helps you to moderate you energy usage so you will some energy left for that last sprint. I would start with 2KM runs twice a week at a moderate speed, running too fast too soon will not benefit your cycling at all – it will just make you tired. Increase you speed to just above comfort level while staying under your pain threshold. When you are comfortable with 15K per week and you have no pain at all, you can then begin to work on your speed and strength.

I run long distances of up to 50K, at these distances speed is not nearly so important as endurance. The fastest runners tend to run the shorter distances, this will hold true for cycling as well.

Always stretch before and after a run, it the stretching feels at all painful back off.

 

[JMAC]

I was talking to my english teacher today and he said buying running shoes from a normal shoe store is like buying a bike from canadian tire. He told me were to running specific stores are so i'll get some got shoes and i don't really plan on running on the road at least not for a while now there's plenty of trails and places here to run off road right out my door.
I realize running is very good for cardio but does it change your muscles in anyway that's bad for biking?
Thanks for the info sofar

 

[Serial Midget]

Originally posted by JMAC
I realize running is very good for cardio but does it change your muscles in anyway that's bad for biking?
Thanks for the info sofar

Only if you go too far or too fast too soon. Recovery time on hard runs is longer than in cycling but... if you stick to the trails and avoid pavement this will not be that much of an issue. The inproved cardio is well worth the effort.

My example... I ran a marathon in March, 100% on pavement with very little elevation gain. I finished with a so so time and could not walk properly for a week!

My last ultra was 31 miles of trail with 4200 feet of gain in 80 to 90 degree temps. I ran it on a Saturday with a decent time and was back running again the next monday.

When looking at trail shoes be sure to consider Aesics - excellent value for the $75.00 or so (US) they cost. Be wary of Montrail... good shoes but worth upwards of $110.00??? Not for me.

On the trail I get about 600 miles on a pair of shoes, my road shoes get about 300 miles before they need replaced. There is a huge difference in the two styles, you do not want road shoes for the trails - especially in wet, muddy conditions. Good luck and keep us posted!

Trail running and ultra distance marathons are becoming more popular each year.

 

[JMAC]

I geuss shoes and bikes are alike in the fact that a Nike shoe is proble the equivilant of a CCM or Huffy.

 

[Topaz]

Barefoot. Offroad. Get some balls people.

 

[Serial Midget]

Originally posted by JMAC
I geuss shoes and bikes are alike in the fact that a Nike shoe is proble the equivilant of a CCM or Huffy.

There is nothing wrong with Nike shoes that are running specific. The Nike shoes you are likely to find at major sporting goods stores is not the same as you would in a running specific store. Don't worry about brand, just worry about fit and comfort. Almost any shoe will get 600 miles but... if the shoe don't fit... it doesn't matter who made it.

 

[JMAC]

I just got back from the choe store and i got some NEW Balance shoes comfortable and they seem to have a thread thats perfect for the conditions i'll be running in and they had asics i wanted them but they didn't have them in my size so i think i'll go running!

 

[Serial Midget]

Originally posted by JMAC
I just got back from the choe store and i got some NEW Balance shoes comfortable and they seem to have a thread thats perfect for the conditions i'll be running in and they had asics i wanted them but they didn't have them in my size so i think i'll go running!

Keep it under 2 or 3 km for the first few runs...

 

[mario]

Serial Midget makes some great points about running. I can attest to the cardio/endurance benefits of running because I gave up biking for several years while I ran exclusively. When I came back to (road) biking, I wasn't too far out of it. I did notice, however, that many of the muscle groups used for biking are different than for running, so my strength was way down at first. (Particularly glutes, hamstrings, and quads.)

You can work on muscle strength by weight training - but you should be careful about doing too much weight since you are only 15 and still growing. You have plenty of time to ride ahead of you, don't screw up your body now. Focus on anatomical adaptation. As you probably know from reading Joe Friel's stuff, cross training will help get you to the next level but there is no substitute for riding.

The key is to getting faster is to develop a plan, as you know, and without knowing your strengths, weaknesses, goals, A-races, etc. there is no way anyone on this board can put together the right plan for YOU. Read Joe's book again, and if you are still confused then come back here and ask some specific questions. (His methodology definitely worked for me this season.) I know there are several people here who would like to help.

 

[JMAC]

Well i ran about 2.5 km offroad yesterday i think atleast thats what my heart rate monitor said but it doesn't say in the manual that it tells you how far you run only how far you bike but it seemed like it's some how very accurate and also when i would stop the timer would stop i didn't know it did this.
Anyways i had biked a hard 30km before and than stretched and i felt like i could run another 10km but i know i'd hurt the next day and already i'm hurting alittle not much though just some muscles i didn't know i had.
I like running and i think i'll wake up every morning before school to run a few K and i'm already planning a few mountain running races in a month.


I did read about the anatomical adaptation weights and i will do that i'm not going to be an idiot and ruin myself like some people i know do. I'm not to worried about still growing i'm prety much finished i'm 6'2'' and thats 4 inches taller than my brother who 19 is so i'm not seriously growing like i was a year ago.

My school has a weight room but it's impossible to use it often enough to train in so i'm planning on joining the new GYM thats opening in a month or so physical park.com a friend of myne has a job there setting up the equipment and he says they have Mountain biking simulators that you're on a trainer bike but you have a 4x6 foot TV in front of you and you're going through trails.
So that should be interresting.

I think running will be good because in that book they say croos training is important because it develops muscles that aren't used much when biking but will help make you faster.




What i want to know is in the winter how many days should i bike on a trainer and cross train (running or XC skiing) and weights.
I was thinking say

Monday i do weights

wendsday crosstrain

tuesday trainer

thursday weights again

friday crosstrain

saterday trainer

sunday a free day

Does that sound like i'm getting somewhere
Thanks for all the suggestions so far

 

[Serial Midget]

Hmmm, a few mountain races a month? Most of our trail races (read organized runs) are 15K, 25K and 50K. You would be hard pressed to do several w/o interfering with your cycling.

If you primarily want to race bikes I would not devote more than 2 days a week running- I would just make those 2 days as good a workout as I could. Be warned though... long distance trail running is addictive and it tugs at your ego, insisting you run farther and climb higher...

 

[JMAC]

Well i didn't mean a few a month i meant there's a few in about a months time from now. It least there was one last year it was a 10km thats on the trails i often race bikes on but they're not having this year so i don't think i'll be racing. More likely is racing in XC sking.
Biking is the main thing but already i'm starting to like running it can't be to bad for biking cause tri atholets are very fit and do all 3 events very fast.
Is there anything wrong with running a few Km before i go to school?

I know running can make me faster cause i only realy started mountain biking last fall at that time i was very slow and fat and all my friends were faster than me but i became really good a technicle in that few months before winter over winter i ran every day as much as i could i lost almost 30Lbs and when we started biking in the spring i was always waiting for people to catch up.
From than on i only biked and became very good at technicle riding i was able to learn to do thing in a matter of days that took my friends a couple years to learn.

Over the summer i one some silvers in long distance 55km races and i was racing against 15-18 yaer olds that have been racing since they were like 10. My first race was 10km race that took me the first time 55minutes to finish the same race series now takes me 35minutes and there was only a 2 month gap.

How can running be bad for me?

 

[Serial Midget]

Who said running was bad? If your primary goal is to be a better biker you should primarily train on a bike. Throwing a bit of running in is great for cross training but too much will take away from your cycling training. Only you can determine what the spit should be.

Was your 10K running or cycling? If it'srunning a 35 minute 10K is monster fast.

Oh... if you have already been running enough to have lost 30 lbs then you certainly do not need any advice from me. I'm just a midget.

 

[JMAC]

10km biking but very technicle so you can go to fast except on the climbs.

 

[JMAC]

Well my legs are killing me so i'm taking the day off.
I just joined my schools XC running team they run almost everyday on the pavement and the choach a mountain biker says that people who say running on pavement is bad are stupid and don't know anything. He does the Boston Marathon every year and a bunch of others.
It shouldn't be a problem cause i've made up a whole training plan i had skipped a few imporatant parts in the book but now i have a very good plan that should fit in nicely to my schedule from now till my first race.
Basically from now to December 1st it's mainly to improve my cardiorespritory so it doesn't matter what i do so i'll bike and run every day and if the weater goes snowy sooner than i want i'll XC ski.
After DEC1st it gets more specific for bike only stuff so i have to save up for a trainer any suggestions?.
I'm also going to start weights 2-3 times a week starting next week.
Also i'll be doing XC running races atleast once a week i think.

 

[Heidi]

JMAC-

If you've read Friel's book then nothing I could say would be new to you - I follow his plan. I use the Base 1, Base 2, Build.......etc. Base miles are VERY IMPORTANT in XC racing. This year my training has been right on. It is important to plan your "peaks" as Friel talks about - those are the races you care about the most, we'll call them "A" races. Then you layer in the "B" races - those that are less important. So, you just work backwards from the races you are planning on doing.

Take a good look at some of the workouts he talks about. What are your strenghts, what are your weaknesses? Try to pick some workouts that will improve upon your weaknesses and sharpen your strengths. It is natural to tend to like to do more workouts that are geared towards what you are good at - cause that's what makes you comfortable. For example, I love climbing so I tend to like doing climbing workouts more. But that's not good, you need to focus MORE on what you aren't as good at. Last year I felt that my recovery times were slow - I'd do a hard effort up a short steep hill and get really tired. So, in the offseason I focused on intervals and sprints.

The weights will definitely help with muscle endurance and strength. It is always going to improve your time if you can push a bigger gear with the same leg speed.

 

[Serial Midget]

Well then I must be stupid; I still maintain that running on the road is much harder on your body than running on trials. Eventually you will become middle aged and all that road work does have an effect. You are young and will make your own decisions regardless of any of us say.

So what if your coach does the Boston Marathon each year - thousands of people do. I'll bet he does not do more than 2 or 3 road marathons each year. I run one road marathon a year and 6 ultra distance trail events. I can guarantee you that a 31 mile ultra marathon on trails and fire roads is no less difficult than than a marathon in terms of effort (ultras almost always include 4,000 or more feet of elevation gain) but they are significantly easier on the joints and connective tissue.

Ask your coach if he has even heard of of, let alone participated in, an un ultra distance trail event? I doubt that he has.

Last year over 500,000+ runners particated in and finshed a marathon run in the US, less than 15,000 runners participated in and finished and ultra distance marathon (anything over 50K or 31.2 miles).

Anyhow - all my advice was based on your initial question. If you train for XC running speed everyday your biking will take the back seat. Your initial question concerned cross training - that is adding running to your existing traing schedule.

EDIT: I don't think anyone said road running was bad - all running is good as long as you listen to your body and avoid injury. Sounds like common sense but most beginning runners eventually injure themselves in one way or another. Usually too hard, too fast & too soon. This is how we learn our limits.

 

[Heidi]

I'm going to agree with Serial Midget. I gave up running because of a knee problem. However, when I DID run, I did trail running because running on pavement IS harder on your body than trail running. Trail running is by far better on your joints because there is more "give" in the surface.

 

[Serial Midget]

Thank you Heidi!

JMAC: I should also say that I think it is just awesome that you are going out for XC and taking an interest in something that will benefit you for the rest of your life. It does not really matter what I think - I only have my personal experience to go on. What does matter is YOU and your own goals - if more people your age took an interest in improving themselves the way you have the we'd all be better off!

So... no matter what I have to say, I think what you are doing is just awesome! Keep it up! And keep us posted about your XC running progress this fall.

 

[JMAC]

Ahh thanks Midget my goal is of coarse to become world chapion i'm a roland wanna be but i have loads of people who are slower than me and tell me every day that i won't luckilly that just makes me train harder i figure there's only one why to find out if i'm actually able to become pro and thats by trying and becoming the best i can be and hell if i don't make it all the way it doesn't matter cause i'll live alot longer.
Most of my friends and almost everyone in my school is preety fit everyone here seems to care about being heathy it's near impossible to find a fat person in my town.
Also i didn't run after school today cause my legs were still hurting but i'm going tomorrow and i'll see what it's like on the road if it hurts after i'll screw that and just run on trails.

I geuss if Heidi uses that book and she's national champ it most be pretty good!

 

[mario]

JAMC - I agree.

I agree with Heidi's comments about Friel's book. If I can add anything at this point, it would be to stick with your plan. Definitely take time off if your body needs it, or your schedule demands it. But you will get the most out of the program if you stick with it.

(Note: I think he lacks a little in the discussion of "tapering." For more information, check out: http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0267.htm)

I also agree that running on pavement is harder on your body than running on a track or trails (if you don't count the mental fatigue of running on a track). Check back in 10 or 15 years if you don't believe it. I have been running for 25 years, since I was 16, on trails and pavement, so I know what is true for me. Maybe your coach has titanium ankles/knees/hips so running surfaces are not a problem?

 

[Serial Midget]

YMAC - how is the XC running going?

 

[JMAC]

Ow sorry i was away in Nebraska the most boring place in the world visiting family. I got a chance to do some 4.5 Mile runs while i was there. It's getting better i can run longer without getting hurt. I'm proble not doing this XC running thing with the school cause it's pretty dumb and not to convineint.
My trainning plan starts sone Oct 1 so i'll be doing weights 3 days a week and running and biking alot for endurance.
And on saterday a friend and i are planning a 150km road ride to Ottawa.

 

[indieboy]

ok listen to me verrrrrrrrrrrry closely jmac. do not make the same mistake i did when i wsa your age. i tried to train and train and train thinkin "oh, well the more training i do the faster i'll be right....." well wrong. you are still growing bro, do NOT try to do any more then a 17 hour week. anything over that is really pushing your body. espically on your growing knees. you should be averaging about 10-12 hours a week for the year. so by the way my schdule is set up i do 4 week cycle, meaning that i build up for 3 weeks then use the 4th to recover then add more time to the first week n so on. don't get frustrated w/ not being so fast at a young age or if you don't do so well at nationals b/c you still have plenty of time. i understand that you want to do well when you are a junior but how many juniors do you see that win a national junior champsion that are still doing well. i personally think walker furgenson is doing a great job w/ his transition from junior to pro. you may look at his results and not agree w/ me b/c he's only about mid pack pro but if you look at how well his results are improving and how much stronger he is becoming you'll understand then. got any questions just ask.....

 

[JMAC]

Ya i understand what you're saying and i don't do more than 10-12 hours a week i'm also doing that 3week on 1 week of plan.
I used to have trouble with my knees hurting from running and biking but thats gone away and i haven't had anything hurt at all in my knees all summer. Except when i hit it really hard on a rock.
This summer i was doing alot of road riding and than mountain racing it probley would have been better to do more technicle riding since i haven't been mountain biking for vary long so now for about the next 2 months i'll be doing the preperation stage in "The Mountain Bikers Training Bible" which as i understand is to prepare to train and to build endurance so i've got a very nice 35km road and 15km technicle trails with lots of climbing to get better at tech stuff and build endurance and i'll also do weights 2-3 times a week.
I 'm not the type to over train but i'm very good at setting goals and making them and i keep training as a very important thing not something i do once and a while when i have time or feel like it.
I did read in Joe's book that most pros wre not the best when they were kids and i'm definently not the best but i don't get discouraged easily and what i have noticed is that the people who are always beating me are riding the very best team replica bikes and they don't seem to really improve much. They also don't seem to be the type that will keep racing. So i'm not to worried.

Right now since i'm newish to mtb i'm trying to improve my technicle riding skills not that they aren't good but i know i can become much faster. More than anything because winters coming really fast, i only have about 2 months of riding left than it's winter and i start racing almost as soon as trails are rideable.

Don't worry indieboy i've had enough people tell me not to over train at my age and i've realized they must be right. I only really have the time to train 10-12 hours a week and right now that exactly what i'm doing.

Thanks for watching out for me

 

[indieboy]

Originally posted by JMAC
Ya i understand what you're saying and i don't do more than 10-12 hours a week i'm also doing that 3week on 1 week of plan.
I used to have trouble with my knees hurting from running and biking but thats gone away and i haven't had anything hurt at all in my knees all summer. Except when i hit it really hard on a rock.
This summer i was doing alot of road riding and than mountain racing it probley would have been better to do more technicle riding since i haven't been mountain biking for vary long so now for about the next 2 months i'll be doing the preperation stage in "The Mountain Bikers Training Bible" which as i understand is to prepare to train and to build endurance so i've got a very nice 35km road and 15km technicle trails with lots of climbing to get better at tech stuff and build endurance and i'll also do weights 2-3 times a week.
I 'm not the type to over train but i'm very good at setting goals and making them and i keep training as a very important thing not something i do once and a while when i have time or feel like it.
I did read in Joe's book that most pros wre not the best when they were kids and i'm definently not the best but i don't get discouraged easily and what i have noticed is that the people who are always beating me are riding the very best team replica bikes and they don't seem to really improve much. They also don't seem to be the type that will keep racing. So i'm not to worried.

Right now since i'm newish to mtb i'm trying to improve my technicle riding skills not that they aren't good but i know i can become much faster. More than anything because winters coming really fast, i only have about 2 months of riding left than it's winter and i start racing almost as soon as trails are rideable.

Don't worry indieboy i've had enough people tell me not to over train at my age and i've realized they must be right. I only really have the time to train 10-12 hours a week and right now that exactly what i'm doing.

Thanks for watching out for me

i dont' see any reason to do weights, if the mapei team doesnt' do them why should i? lol don't stress otu to much on weights though seriously. not right now atleast....

 

[JMAC]

I'm not really worried about weights and i'm not going to take it to seriuosly but i think it will help me to build some upper body strength.

Does anyone have any experience with Tacx Trainers?

 

[indieboy]

Originally posted by JMAC
I'm not really worried about weights and i'm not going to take it to seriuosly but i think it will help me to build some upper body strength.

Does anyone have any experience with Tacx Trainers?

you don't need to much upper body for xc so i wouldn't stress out on that much either......

 

[JMAC]

I just got my trainer today Tacx Cycleforce one mag trainer. I got it set up on my trek (stillhaven't got a road bike but it's coming in the futur) and can believe how easy it is to take the bike on and off.
Anyways i did and hour on it averaged 152 bpm
It was different than riding a bike and boring so i think i'm going to try and do as little on atrainer as possible so i will do weights 2-3 times a week disbite what some of you say.