[Mike Buell]

Just wondering if everyone has seen this, I hadn't yet. Looks like a promising start to turning the sport back around. Just wondering what everyone elses thoughts are, and if anyone has any more info.

http://www.usacycling.org/news/user/story.php?id=2629

 

[motomike]

link link link link link link

 

[Mike Buell]

link link link link link link

sorry, guess thats important, link is up now.

 

[nh dude]

hmmm logical

 

[metalhead119042]

Gravity is defined as downhill, dual slalom, 4-cross and super downhill.

What's the difference between normal and super downhill?

 

[bballe336]

What's the difference between normal and super downhill?

Only Sam Hill can handle super downhill.

 

[motomike]

So they create this new thing just to recognize races that are already happening and that obviously don't need usac's help to grow. great idea!

I don't like how they kept saying it would be like the NRC. We're diferent from road cycling. Treat us differently.

 

[kidwoo]

What's the difference between normal and super downhill?

Heard of super D? Same thing.

It's a downieville-esque kind of downhill run that's usually mellower and involves more pedaling/climbing. Think your average descent on an xc ride after some climbing.

 

[metalhead119042]

Ahhh i thought it was Super D, just never heard it called super downhill.

 

[Mike Buell]

So they create this new thing just to recognize races that are already happening and that obviously don't need usac's help to grow. great idea!

I don't like how they kept saying it would be like the NRC. We're diferent from road cycling. Treat us differently.

I agree that we should be treated somewhat differently, but personally I'm just stoked that it seeems atleast some effert is taking place to bring a national series back to life.
I also kind of like the Idea of using races that are already being hosted in different areas. It will create a national point series that actually hits many different parts of the country and will be promoted by people that actually want to put on a good race. It also sounds to me like their will actually be guidlines that will have to be met to qualify as a race so the week ones won't get aproved.

 

[MinorThreat]

This 'news' piece is a few weeks old already. And the trouble is, to make it work, you have to get the other promoters to bite on the idea.

I'd love to see some venues that have been passed over or neglected get back into the mix. I was all stoked about it and told Gino at Round and Round about it and he basically ho-hummed the whole thing. I'm afraid a lot of promoters are going to view it as all of the work of putting on a national-sized event with none of the infrastructure perks and rewards.

USAC has basically admitted that the NMBS promoter has failed and is now looking to bolster their pitiful schedule. What really ought to happen is one of three things: 1) wrest gravity away from USAC completely and run it all under another sanctioning body; 2) at the very least, force the NMBS promoter to form partnerships with the regional NORBA promoters in co-hosting NMBS events so that the local promoter gets some of the action; or 3) fire TBB and Blue Wolf and start over.

 

[ÆX]

http://www.usacycling.org/forms/usac_mtnc_07_app_PRO.pdf

i like the idea of the "ucmbnc" whew thats a mouth full,

but will the promoters jump to it.

Please note that the “National Mountain Bike Series” (NMBS), which has not been a property of USA Cycling for three years, will continue to operate under the independent ownership and organization of Team Big Bear and Blue Wolf Productions and fit within the framework of the USA Cycling Mountain Bike National Calendar.

so if tbb/bwp to there races who will step up with new downhills.

well we will see dec 15th. not too long

 

[BC VAN]

Anybody know how many of these events they are going to accept?

 

[Zutroy]

Anybody know how many of these events they are going to accept?

I haven't heard, on the road version there were 45 events last year. I know races like the Chilli Challenge and a couple other AMBC races have submitted aps.

You need a min of 2k on the DH side to make the lower level and 5k for the higher one.

The XC side of the NMBS maked the grade, but i don't think the DH does.

 

[ÆX]

yeah, i don't know of any last year that had a 2k payout.

 

[BC VAN]

So what I see is aside from adding a ton of events to gain points for the overall ranking we have nothing that adds value to a potential sponsor of riders and/or a team?

Anyone know how the world’s team selection will be done?

What is USA cycling really bringing to the party here are they investing membership money back into the sport?

That’s a question not a slam

 

[Zutroy]

So what I see is aside from adding a ton of events to gain points for the overall ranking we have nothing that adds value to a potential sponsor of riders and/or a team?

Anyone know how the world’s team selection will be done?

What is USA cycling really bringing to the party here are they investing membership money back into the sport?

That’s a question not a slam

My guess is they are trying to mimic what happened on the road side when they started the NRC. Build up quality regional races into national level events.

What it adds for the riders is a list of races with prize purse. For both the riders and teams it builds a list of quality races.

What's USAC dumping in, i'm not sure. Probably nothing. But at least they are acting like a sanctioning body and putting in some standard to be on what's considered the top tear series in the country.

Will it work i don't know, couldn't hurt IMHO.

 

[MinorThreat]

What promoter is going to go to all that work though? What's in it for them? There needs to be something - - like co-op promotional monies, help landing underwriting for purses, etc. - - to make it worth the hassle.

 

[ÆX]

What promoter is going to go to all that work though? What's in it for them? There needs to be something - - like co-op promotional monies, help landing underwriting for purses, etc. - - to make it worth the hassle.

hey whats been up.


well if they put on a race with 4k and tbb has nothing the masses will
go the the better race.

i think this will give tbb some competition that is very needed.

 

[Pbody]

well if they put on a race with 4k and tbb has nothing the masses will
go the the better race.

i think this will give tbb some competition that is very needed.

I agree with BCD.

What's in it for them? Obviously money. If no one is benefitting from holding an event, it doesn't make sense to do it. Anyone who wants to promote a race needs to know where there money is coming from, and then make sure they have a means to make sure that money will show up. How do they do that? Give a good reason for a racer to show up, and bring their family and friends. A promoter needs to put some money and effort into it to it to have a great event. Then it seems to me that if someone makes a 10% profit, including a solid return on their time, than that is a pretty good reason to have an event next year and make it better. Perhaps next year he can make 12%, a 20% increase.

There are 2 ways to make money at events: Sponsors and Attendees. And when I say attendees, you have participants and spectators.

Sponsors: The promoter should be able to participate in any sponsorship that USAC brings to the table. But the majority of their sponsorship revenue will come from what they can obtain for themselves. Phone calls, proposals, networking is all part of the game. They can always work with the USAC sponsors to enhance what USAC has obligated. Local businesses are going to generate revenue, so they better put some money up to make sure they can bring as many people to town as possible.

Attendees: Riders will bring entry fees, of which a small portion should go to pay for the insurance which should be obtained from USAC. So yeah, there is a fee paid to USAC, but that is cost of doing business. The other direct costs from bring racers in is too pay for awards. So you have costs for awards, and in my opinion entry fees for Pro classes should be 100% payback plus an amount guaranteed by the promoter. Spectators, as well as riders, will bring money to pay for lodging, food, etc. The better the event you are going to have, the more riders and specatators will show up, bringing more money to the table to have a successful event. Ultimately, this allows you to enhance the event for the next year, meaning you can increase your sponsorship revenue in the future. Now we're back to the beginning, one full circle.

From what I see, TBB is struggling with that basic business model. Every year there is less and less. There is no continuity from season to season, let alone race to race. The courses are often the same and get worn out over the years. There's less practice time every year. Some single events have considerable less practice time than others. You travel 1000's of miles to race on grass around poles stuck in the ground. You travel 1000's of miles to attend an event, then have to drive another hour away to attend one of the events of the weekend; this isn't the Olympics. No one wants to go back when the expectation is so low. The NMBS gets less and less riders every year, meaning they have no means of providing more the next year. TBB works with what they can, and is not the sole entity at fault, but they still need be more responsible sinced they signed up for the job. They need to do a better job at controlling their destiny.

I could go on and on, and I've been holding on to that for a while, so thanks for listening to my rant.

 

[MinorThreat]

In an ideal world, you would be completely right, Pbody. Unfortunately the money just isn't there. I think that's one reason TBB and Blue Wolf are having a bit of a time at it . . . and they are one of the higher-horsepower regional promoters. Round and Round quit doing the WIM (Pacific Northwest) series last year because it was bleeding them dry. They had to stick to their road stuff and the 24-hour to stay in the black.

We ran one DH event in Spokane last year - - using Gino's NORBA sanctioning - - and chip timing services provided basically gratis by Eric of Milliseconds. We kept overhead to a minimum, (no shuttles, etc.) amid much grumbling, with the goal of just breaking even. We did, but not by any great amounts - - just enough to encourage us to host a second annual in 2007. As for the other points:

Sponsors: Most local businesses don't even know that mountain bike racing exists, let alone the demographic potential that there is in it. Major sponsors aren't going to be interested unless there is some excitement potential there. And seeing's how NORBA race has to have both XC and gravity events, over half your 'excitement' is out the window before a clock even starts. And until they figure out how to make DH something more than one person against a clock, it will remain an 'enthusiast's sport.'

Attendees: I agree on entry fees. The amount charged now should be enough to cover the 'have-to' aspects of a race. Amateur entry fees should actually be lower than they are. Spectators: What spectators? There are no spectators at a mountain bike race - - just close family and firends (if that). The only money to be had from them is the ancilliary (food, lodging, etc) which the promoter doesn't see. Two things have to happen to make money off spectators: something worth paying to watch; and extra crowd-control measures (+ more overhead) to be able to charge admission. 4-cross is the only mountain event right now that has spectator appeal. People watch head-to-head racing. Nobody goes to NASCAR races to watch drivers do solo time trials. They want to see fender-banging, nose-to-tail action. So until we reinvent downhill into a spectator sport and let someone else (like road clubs) host XC races, spectators and sponsors won't flock to mountain bike racing.

P.S. - Hi Alex. Not much, working too many hours and trying to get my ducks in a row for next season . . . and trying to finally finish the house this winter. We'll see. Also got the pieces gathered to build my first ski-bike; snow baby snow!

 

[Zutroy]

In an ideal world, you would be completely right, Pbody. Unfortunately the money just isn't there. I think that's one reason TBB and Blue Wolf are having a bit of a time at it . . . and they are one of the higher-horsepower regional promoters. Round and Round quit doing the WIM (Pacific Northwest) series last year because it was bleeding them dry. They had to stick to their road stuff and the 24-hour to stay in the black.

We ran one DH event in Spokane last year - - using Gino's NORBA sanctioning - - and chip timing services provided basically gratis by Eric of Milliseconds. We kept overhead to a minimum, (no shuttles, etc.) amid much grumbling, with the goal of just breaking even. We did, but not by any great amounts - - just enough to encourage us to host a second annual in 2007. As for the other points:

Sponsors: Most local businesses don't even know that mountain bike racing exists, let alone the demographic potential that there is in it. Major sponsors aren't going to be interested unless there is some excitement potential there. And seeing's how NORBA race has to have both XC and gravity events, over half your 'excitement' is out the window before a clock even starts. And until they figure out how to make DH something more than one person against a clock, it will remain an 'enthusiast's sport.'

Attendees: I agree on entry fees. The amount charged now should be enough to cover the 'have-to' aspects of a race. Amateur entry fees should actually be lower than they are. Spectators: What spectators? There are no spectators at a mountain bike race - - just close family and firends (if that). The only money to be had from them is the ancilliary (food, lodging, etc) which the promoter doesn't see. Two things have to happen to make money off spectators: something worth paying to watch; and extra crowd-control measures (+ more overhead) to be able to charge admission. 4-cross is the only mountain event right now that has spectator appeal. People watch head-to-head racing. Nobody goes to NASCAR races to watch drivers do solo time trials. They want to see fender-banging, nose-to-tail action. So until we reinvent downhill into a spectator sport and let someone else (like road clubs) host XC races, spectators and sponsors won't flock to mountain bike racing.

P.S. - Hi Alex. Not much, working too many hours and trying to get my ducks in a row for next season . . . and trying to finally finish the house this winter. We'll see. Also got the pieces gathered to build my first ski-bike; snow baby snow!

I think it all depends on your area. The money not being there is a joke, TBB seems to be the only major endurance sport promotors that seem to be having problems. Every major, road running, triathlon, plus most of the other major MTB promotors are finding money. We're not talking multimillion dollar purses here. The fact is TBB doesn't have the skill and/or the care to market there series. Specators have little to do with it. Most other endurance type races, don't have huge groves of fans out there either, but they do fine.

The only way things are going to get better is to force a change, and that's what the new calender is doing.

 

[Pbody]

MinorThreat, I hear you loud and clear, but let me play devil's advocate on some of your thougths:

In an ideal world, you would be completely right, Pbody. Unfortunately the money just isn't there. I think that's one reason TBB and Blue Wolf are having a bit of a time at it . . .

The money is there, people have the money to spend, they are just choosing wisely where to spend it. People want value for their money. Create a reason for racers and their loved ones to show up. Obviously people have a reason to show up to R&R's road and 24-hour events. What were those events providing that that the MTB were not? People have attended the NMBS races in the past, and some continue to do so in the past. But more of these people are choosing to go to Diablo for a weekend, go to Whistler for a week, go to an MSC Race, go to Mammoth for a weekend.

We ran one DH event in Spokane last year - - using Gino's NORBA sanctioning - - and chip timing services provided basically gratis by Eric of Milliseconds. We kept overhead to a minimum, (no shuttles, etc.) amid much grumbling, with the goal of just breaking even. We did, but not by any great amounts - - just enough to encourage us to host a second annual in 2007.

Sounds promising. Start off small. Don't kill yourself the first year. Get the word out, build momentum, and continue to grow. Gotta start somewhere.

Sponsors: Most local businesses don't even know that mountain bike racing exists, let alone the demographic potential that there is in it. Major sponsors aren't going to be interested unless there is some excitement potential there.

That's why they call it "selling" sponsorship. Sponsors aren't going to just give away cash. They need to be sold on the event. There needs to be an educated understanding of what they they are giving money towards, where it is going, what is being used for, what their benefit is, etc. Hell, the Wells Fargo Dash-for-Cash as a nice ring to it. How about the Holiday Inn Hill Climb? The Pro DH Finals brought to you Pizza Hut. It takes time and effort, but is part of the game.

And until they figure out how to make DH something more than one person against a clock, it will remain an 'enthusiast's sport.'

I always disagree with this argument. How come DH skiing is so successful? How come Skicross and Boardercross has become as successful as they are? Camera placement is a bogus excuse. They get significant coverage compared to MTB. The ability is there, someone just needs to sell the right package and fulfill their obligations once the package is sold.

Spectators: What spectators? There are no spectators at a mountain bike race - - just close family and firends (if that).

My discussion was based more on what needed to be done in order to attract more riders and spectators.

The only money to be had from them is the ancilliary (food, lodging, etc) which the promoter doesn't see.

If the promoter isn't seeing a dime from the host restaurants, lodging, etc. than that is their mistake. A promoter better be making a cut of the revenue that their event is bringing to the host venue or relative businesses. Everything is negotiable. If not a direct cut then there is always free food and lodging for staff and volunteers. Get them to provide the awards. Sponsorship dollars. Advertising. If not revenue, a way to save costs is just as good.

Nobody goes to NASCAR races to watch drivers do solo time trials.

But they do go to NHRA events to watch 5 second runs.

They want to see fender-banging, nose-to-tail action.

People watch Formula 1 Racing.

So until we reinvent downhill into a spectator sport and let someone else (like road clubs) host XC races, spectators and sponsors won't flock to mountain bike racing.

My point exactly.

One last thing . . . I often think that one of the problems with our sport is the cost to be involved at an entry to enthusiast level. Ski gear costs @ $400. Snowboard @ $300. DH @ $2,000. Even BMX is more successful when compared to MTB. Teenage kids can be fairly competitive on a BMX bike for $400-500. Travel costs. There are a ton of BMX tracks scattered across the US. How accessible is it for someone to drive to a ski resort compared to the local BMX track? Then there's the availability of resorts who cater to snow/ski sports versus those that allow bikes, but then that is whole different story.

 

[MinorThreat]

You make a bunch of excellent points, Pbody. I'm going to have to ruminate on 'em some more before I shoot my mouth off. I like discussions like this; it gets a lot of ideas thrown out there and gets people really thinking about what can be done to make things better.

 

[bizutch]

All events added to the calendar must meet pro prize purse requirements specific to each calendar tier set by either the UCI or USA Cycling

This is a positive step. USA Cycling is starting to shore things up from the ground up. Feed the bulk of the riders all across the country at events they attend most.

 

[Transcend]

Spectators: What spectators? There are no spectators at a mountain bike race - - just close family and firends (if that). The only money to be had from them is the ancilliary (food, lodging, etc) which the promoter doesn't see.

Apparently you have only ever ben to small local events or the sport sucks in your area (possible I guess).

Go to a world cup, spectators are a plenty (easily into the 5 digits every year at Ste Anne, Ft Bill, Schladming). The world championships is even more ridiculous (albeit a huge event). Heck, even local Canada and Quebec cups here in quebec get large amounts of spectators, easily into the low thousands.

Point is, the spectators are there, the money is there...the effort needs to be there from groups like TBB.

 

[bizutch]

...

Point is, the spectators are there, the money is there...the effort needs to be there from groups like TBB.

ding ding...we have a winner!

 

[Transcend]

ding ding...we have a winner!

To be fair, effort needs to be in from anyone who cares, and not just the promoters. People can't complain yet not be willing to do anything to help.

I offerred to help TBB raise money for series sponsorship a few years ago when they actually ASKED for help in the media in a few interviews. I was shot down everytime, despite having a fairly good background raising money for things like that. They didn't want help, they were just offerring lip service to the media. They need to be flexible, just as those of us who care about the sport have to be willing to put in some sweat equity.

 

[MinorThreat]

Apparently you have only ever ben to small local events or the sport sucks in your area (possible I guess).

Go to a world cup, spectators are a plenty (easily into the 5 digits every year at Ste Anne, Ft Bill, Schladming). The world championships is even more ridiculous (albeit a huge event). Heck, even local Canada and Quebec cups here in quebec get large amounts of spectators, easily into the low thousands.

Point is, the spectators are there, the money is there...the effort needs to be there from groups like TBB.

Granted, the only national I've been to so far have been the Schweitzer, ID ones, so my perspective may be skewed. But I'm talking NORBA events here, not World Cups. That's a whole 'nuther animal - - even in Canada, which in my mind has more of a European world view. (Shucks, those people eat up curling as a sport )

And, yes, from a publicity standpoint, our regional NORBA promoter is abysmal at engaging the community at large about the sport. That's one reason I've wanted to play an active role in our local race scene - - figured my writing/marketing/graphic design/media background might help. There is so much more that should be done to publicize our local events.

I do have to wonder, though, if even at large events like Sea Otter that the spectator base is largely enthusiasts and close family/friends of participants. I'm curious what it may take - - even up to changing the formats themselves - - to catch the interest of the the more pedestrian sport spectator in our country. That level of appeal, in my mind, is what is going to spark sponsor interest and get television air time beyond the niche outdoor channels.

 

[Pbody]

FYI - I contacted USAC to see when the MBNC would be released.

USA Cycling has released bid documents to promoters on Friday, November 3. They bid applications are to be returned to USAC on December 5th. Then "once the calendar is selected we will make an announcement."

Guesses on how long until we hear something?

 

[Zutroy]

FYI - I contacted USAC to see when the MBNC would be released.

USA Cycling has released bid documents to promoters on Friday, November 3. They bid applications are to be returned to USAC on December 5th. Then "once the calendar is selected we will make an announcement."

Guesses on how long until we hear something?

I'm guessing fairly quickly after that. Teams are working on budgets and pimping sponsors, that's kinda info they need to have.