Procore / Ghettocore progress thread

troy · Sep 5, 2016

Me and my buddy will make one in a couple of days. I've tried using 26" tubular on a 26" wheel, but it is too small. I mean, You can put it on but it is reeeealllyy hard. You have to use 700c tubular for sure.

We were thinking of stripping the tire tread from the tubular tire to save some weight or use an used one. Tufo tubulars are very light ~210g.

lobsterCT · Sep 5, 2016

Showing 233 g with the rubber band on the tube on my spare set I keep in the toolbox for bike trips.

I'm a downhill newb, (2nd season) but long time MTB rider. Using procore with 2nd generation Derby DH rims and Maxxis WT DHF double downs.

Previous set up as main basis for comparison was enve 26DH with downhill tubes and DHF 2.7's. (also used ghetto tubeless).

I've got about 10-12 or so days riding on the procore setup at killington and thunder mountain. For now, I seem to have settled on 25 psi front, 27 back, with 70 in the procores. This is about 3 PSI lower than I run with derby rims trail riding. I initially tried the same pressure as I trail ride, but my hands were taking a beating. 3 PSI lower made a substantial improvement to how my hands feel. Im about 240 in the birthday suit.

My general impression of procore, other than install effort and short valve stem (can barely grab one thread with the derby dh) is very positive. I've always in the past had to baby my wheels to some degree or else do a lot of trueing and relacing. This is the first wheelset I have had that I find myself riding without any consideration for the wheelset. This makes me smile.

You guys riding mach 10 at whistler and catching big air might have different results, I'm not sure. No problems yet with double down casings.

I put 4 ounces of sealant in, and have not experimented with trying less. Never had a burping failure tubeless with procore or without procore using the bead lock on the derby's.

(one possibly relevant point - I built and trued the wheels without the procore installed. 1st day of riding both wheels 100% de-tensioned on a run just before lunch time. I was feeling really smooth on that run, till I braked at the bottom and lost a lot of speed, then it was quite a shit show. I'm not the best wheel builder, but I've never had that dramatic a failure. I re-tensioned the wheels with the procore on and inflated, and have not had further spoke tension problems. I've read similar experiences on the web. )

Happymtb.fr · Sep 5, 2016

Here is what I can share about ghettocore.

Happymtb.fr said:
I did that on the back wheel of my hardtail and it works just fine: no more pinch flat, no burping and no more dented rim! I have used it now for a month and half.

The valve core on tubular is not threaded and I had a leak there until I threaded it with a M6 x 0,75 die which is finer than usual M6 (I don't know how much tpi that would be...). I also put a piece of tube through the valve core of the tubular before inserting it in the rim becauce I did not trust the fabric at the bottom of the tubular to be tubeless compatible...
I found out that 25mm tubular might be a little too wide for my i25 rims so that the tubular sits on the top of the rim walls and not on the rim bead. This could also explain the issue I had with the leak described above. I have 23mm tubular on their way. 21mm tubular were too small and did not push the tire against the side walls of the rim thus allowing burping...

28" tubular will work fine on 26" rims according to my experience. I not sure how it works on 27,5 rims so check your spoke tension after inflating the tubular!

Happymtb.fr said:
I tried a 23mm tubular, Vittoria Rally which can be found quite cheap here in Europe, it fitted nicely between the sidewalls of my i25 rims. The 28" or 700c tubular needed around 8 bar / 115 psi to make contact with the 26" rim.
If used on 27.5 rims, check your spoke tension while inflating and 8 bar is likely to be too much for this wheelsize.

edit:
If you are not sure about drilling a hole in your expensive rims, you can always do as follows: use the hole on the rim for the tubular and inflate the outer tire with an inflating needle and let the tubeless sealant do its job. The downside is that you always loose a bit of pressure before the sealant seals the tire and you cannot check or adjust the pressure without puncturing the casing again. I did that on my hardtail and choose to puncture at the same spot every time: somewhere on the sidewall. It worked great for me.

Some rims manufacturer have apparently been critical to Procore, DT was mentioned by the guy behind Huck Norris. The issue behind being that the Procore system exceed the maximum pressure that the rims are designed for. Syntace rims are of course fully compatible to Procore. So check your rims before committing!

Ghettocore seems to put less pressure on the rim bed, at least for the 26" rims (I have no experience with 27,5" rims) the 28" tubular is "self contained" and starts only to put pressure on the rim from 6 to 8 bar (90 to 115 psi) depending on the rim design and the width of the tubular. With lower pressure than that the tubular sits loose on the rim so that you can remove it by hand. I actually tried a 21mm tubular on a 26" rim and did not manage to make it seat tightly with the rim despite inflating it to its maximum recommended pressure: 10 bar (145psi).

There is a system similar to ghettocore called Deaneasy http://www.deaneasy.it/en/tubeplus/

Edit 2:
It is quite important to prestretch the tubular: just mount it on a rim so that it fits nicely, it will tend to twist during inflation. Just twist it back and proceed with inflation until it sits tight. Leave it there over night.
If you don't do that it will twist inside your outer tire and be quite a nightmare.

frango · Sep 5, 2016

So, I've been using Procore from the April 2016.
I've actually build a set of wheels for my 2016 Reign Advanced 1 for it: DT 240s hubs, DT Competition Race spokes and DT XM481 rims. It' been a bit hassle with lacing wheels, since spokes don't have TCS section (like Sapim). The wheelset is about 1670g, so a bit lighter than M1700 Spline 2 wheels, but with much wider rims (30 vs 23mm internal).
I've been thinking about getting new Giant TRX carbon rims, but they are not compatible with Procore

So, initial Procore setup was tricky, but successful

Few tire changes later, it takes me about 30min to change tires.
I've used Schwalbe sealant, but it seals Schwalbe SnakeSkin tires poorly. I use Caffe Latex sealant now. It sealed Schwalbe NN 2,8 SS instantly. I've haven't puncture, yet, so I don't know how it handles snake bites or other damages.
As for Procore and riding with pressure. I used about 0,8bar (about 11-12psi) both on front and rear. It generated tons traction on climbs and descents

It has been like riding on carpet

Such low pressure is not very good idea for riding in bike park, coz rear tires started to rub swingarm a bit

Oh, did I say clearance is about 4-5mm on Pike 27,5 and 3mm on swingarm?

So, not for muddy conditions

So, I've been very happy with Procore

I will spend another 3 days riding trails and competing in local enduro race. Hopefully, on Procore and 2.8" tires

Nick · Sep 5, 2016

frango said:
I used about 0,8bar (about 11-12psi) both on front and rear

ianjenn · Sep 5, 2016

I have a brand new 29" PROCORE ready to sell.....

Jm_ · Sep 5, 2016

ianjenn said:
I have a brand new 29" PROCORE ready to sell.....

Is it compatible with Boost?

Gary · Sep 6, 2016

frango said:
Schwalbe NN 2,8

frango said:
(about 11-12psi) both on front and rear. It generated tons traction on climbs and descents

Have you considered just making a better tyre choice?

Kanye West · Sep 6, 2016

I wont use (correction: won't PAY for) that Schwalbe system for the simple reason that they have BLATANTLY stolen the idea from Neutech (the manufacturer of the moto tubliss system, who has it patented). My understanding is Schwalbe isn't even trying to dodge IP infringement and just being cocksuckers about it, even though they were supposed to pay royalties, so they're getting sued over it. They're basically pulling a Specialized, hoping they can steamroll a 1-man show who came up with the idea originally and executed it in a parallel platform.

frango · Sep 6, 2016

Nick said:

I am light and I don't plough

65kg geared

frango · Sep 6, 2016

Gary said:
Have you considered just making a better tyre choice?

Yes and no

I knew NN 2,8 is on the narrow side of the 2,8 width. It's actually more 2,6 that 2,8

Nothing wider will fit the bike. Just to remind you... it's regular Reign
I've only put these tire on the bike to see if it worked... it did, kinda

Procore made it funnier

buckoW · Sep 6, 2016

Try the Minion DHF or DHR 2.8 if you're into the Plus tires.

Kanye West · Sep 6, 2016

I'm FAR from offended. That's pretty standard business procedure really. Just pointing out that if it looks similar, it's for a good reason.

lobsterCT · Sep 6, 2016

one other note - I blew a tire off the rim with a compressor going for 70 PSI in the procore when I wasn't paying attention and had the valve selector set for inflating the outer tire. Don't do that. Startled me pretty bad, and I had stans all over everything in the garage. No damage done, but lots of cleanup.

frango · Sep 6, 2016

buckoW said:
Try the Minion DHF or DHR 2.8 if you're into the Plus tires.

I'd have to try to fit them first, before paying

Westy · Sep 6, 2016

I tried crab-core, but got even more pinch flats.

:rimshot:

Fool · Sep 6, 2016

Hot on the (w)heels of my last bike business moneymaker, announcing YooToob, tubes for tubeless tires. Schrader vs Presta poll to follow.

fwp · Sep 6, 2016

I ride pretty rocky terrain at the local mt. After increasing my pressure to 40psi+ in the rear, I was still flatting 1-2 times a day, I would be walking down the hill. Which sucks when you drive 40 minutes to ride the lifts and spend your time dealing with flats half the day. The mountain I ride has bankers hours which makes flats more frustrating.
I decided to try procore, I was flat free the first day at 25psi front and rear with 80 psi in the inner chamber. It was great. The wheels were slightly heavier with the procore system, but they were heavy to begin with.
Day two I flatted in a rock garden. Procore doesn't claim to prevent punctures, but they do claim to protect against rim damage, and be rideable with a flat outer chamber. Not the case. I could have ridden it down, but it felt the same as riding a regular flat? Now my Magic Mary has a slice big enough to render it useless and my rim has a nice dent.
After I go back to maxxis rubber i will probably run it anyway just because I spent the money.
Just my experience

Muddy · Sep 6, 2016

fwp said:
I ride pretty rocky terrain at the local mt. After increasing my pressure to 40psi+ in the rear, I was still flatting 1-2 times a day, I would be walking down the hill. Which sucks when you drive 40 minutes to ride the lifts and spend your time dealing with flats half the day. The mountain I ride has bankers hours which makes flats more frustrating.
I decided to try procore, I was flat free the first day at 25psi front and rear with 80 psi in the inner chamber. It was great. The wheels were slightly heavier with the procore system, but they were heavy to begin with.
Day two I flatted in a rock garden. Procore doesn't claim to prevent punctures, but they do claim to protect against rim damage, and be rideable with a flat outer chamber. Not the case. I could have ridden it down, but it felt the same as riding a regular flat? Now my Magic Mary has a slice big enough to render it useless and my rim has a nice dent.
After I go back to maxxis rubber i will probably run it anyway just because I spent the money.
Just my experience

There's much less volume of Air if Procore gets installed - a cold rain and temps falling can drop air pressure something significant. If tire pressure @ 30PSI initially tubeless was maintained, that same 30PSI with Procore/shantycore will be more compliant.

MinorThreat · Sep 7, 2016

Please someone tell me how tubeless is being revolutionized by a ... ahem ... tube.

kazlx · Sep 7, 2016

lobsterCT said:
one other note - I blew a tire off the rim with a compressor going for 70 PSI in the procore when I wasn't paying attention and had the valve selector set for inflating the outer tire. Don't do that. Startled me pretty bad, and I had stans all over everything in the garage. No damage done, but lots of cleanup.

Personally, never had an issue with tubeless and I'm a pretty stout guy that tends to smash shit. But, to each their own. I see that dude saying he's running 11lbs and I can't imagine how that is even possible. There's a definite sweet spot for me on pressure between getting my teeth rattled out and the bike feeling way too squirmy.

Loki87 · Sep 8, 2016

fwp said:
I ride pretty rocky terrain at the local mt. After increasing my pressure to 40psi+ in the rear, I was still flatting 1-2 times a day, I would be walking down the hill. Which sucks when you drive 40 minutes to ride the lifts and spend your time dealing with flats half the day. The mountain I ride has bankers hours which makes flats more frustrating.
I decided to try procore, I was flat free the first day at 25psi front and rear with 80 psi in the inner chamber. It was great. The wheels were slightly heavier with the procore system, but they were heavy to begin with.
Day two I flatted in a rock garden. Procore doesn't claim to prevent punctures, but they do claim to protect against rim damage, and be rideable with a flat outer chamber. Not the case. I could have ridden it down, but it felt the same as riding a regular flat? Now my Magic Mary has a slice big enough to render it useless and my rim has a nice dent.
After I go back to maxxis rubber i will probably run it anyway just because I spent the money.
Just my experience

I can´t report the same.
Deflated my tire on top of a 15min dh-run in Saalbach and dropped pressure waaaaaay too low. Like, maybe 0.3 bar in the outer chamber. Pretty much the equivalent of a flat.
Had to get down somehow and decided to test the limitations of procore. So i hammered it into the nasties and sharpest rock sections and it didn´t even feel like a flat. No rim damage,everything still working like a charm.
Was a little squirmy in corners, but manageable.
Normally i run 1.1 bar in the outer chamber front and rear, so the drop in pressure was rather significant and in comparison, once i dropped below 1.9bar (with dh-casings) on the same run with a regular tube setup i could not finish a run without a flat.
Grip at 1.1 bar is just crazy good and still feels solid in corners without any tire roll/folding etc.
I´m absolutely sold on Procore. Just hope the valves hold up, since those have been reported to be a weak spot.
So far no problems though.

Happymtb.fr · Sep 8, 2016

Loki87 said:
Grip at 1.1 bar is just crazy good and still feels solid in corners without any tire roll/folding etc.

Maybe the rear suspension does interfere but on my hardtail I could definitely feel the tire folding with pressure below 1.5 bar. On the other hand I have been pumping my tires to 2 bar for so long that the 1.7-1.8 bar I am running now make me sometimes wonder if I got a flat!

lobsterCT · Sep 8, 2016

kazlx said:
Personally, never had an issue with tubeless and I'm a pretty stout guy that tends to smash shit. But, to each their own. I see that dude saying he's running 11lbs and I can't imagine how that is even possible. There's a definite sweet spot for me on pressure between getting my teeth rattled out and the bike feeling way too squirmy.

Lol, yes similar to that.

SylentK · Sep 8, 2016

I've been running the procore machine on my endurbro bike since spring. It is pretty awesome.

I've posted about it before, so maybe I'll bring some things up that I haven't seen other folks comment on.

The kit itself is really nice, high quality. The tire levers are pretty much the best I've ever used. Really thin and just the right bend. It also comes with a soap applicator for the tire bead. That right there is worth the $200

. Seriously tho, it makes any tire install easy peasy.

The inner tube is proprietary. So if you pop that and can't fix it, you need to find another. Last I checked they weren't very easy to find. I did manage to get a hole in the inner tube during install. But a normal tire patch fixed it. Surprisingly so since I run it at 80psi/5.5bar. The rim tape is also "special". Not sure what it's made of but supposedly it has more strength due to the inner tube being at such high pressure. You're not supposed to run normal rim tape with this setup. And the valves are starting to get a little sticky, but still work.

There is a minimum rim and tire size recommendations. I really wouldn't recommend unless you run a minimum around 30i rims and 2.4 tires or wider. I have them on my Roval Fattie SL Carbon wheels. They're 30i. And have ran 2.5 WT minions dhf exo and DD casing. That's such a great set up IMO. I run around 15/20 psi F/R. Sometimes lower for the slower speed local, public trails. Higher for the bike parks.

Loki87 · Sep 8, 2016

Happymtb.fr said:
Maybe the rear suspension does interfere but on my hardtail I could definitely feel the tire folding with pressure below 1.5 bar. On the other hand I have been pumping my tires to 2 bar for so long that the 1.7-1.8 bar I am running know make me sometimes wonder if I got a flat!

Interesting to hear that.
If i go above 1.2bar, for me the tire feels way too hard and the ride gets rather uncomfortable. No way it would feel like even a remotely soft tire at all. I can´t even imagine 1.5bar in my Procore setup.
I´m also rather sensitive when it comes to tires folding in corners. That´s also why i never converted to regular tubeless, cause i could never drop below 1.8bar anyways due to tires squirming.
But i´ve also found the system to be incredibly sensitive to pressure changes, so maybe the difference in tire size between our setups or something along those lines is causing that rather drastic difference in pressure.
Or maybe it´s just one of our pumps pressure gage being way off.

frango · Sep 13, 2016

SylentK said:
I have them on my Roval Fattie SL Carbon wheels.

Those rims are "certified" for such pressure!? Most are for 3 BAR max :|

SylentK · Sep 13, 2016

frango said:
Those rims are "certified" for such pressure!? Most are for 3 BAR max :|

Good question. Yes, supposedly they are. When I was vetting this out, I found a thread on MTBR where an actual Roval guy answered all the homer's questions. I'm pretty sure they are rated for that psi. I kinda remember him commenting that they were running/testing procore, too. Or if not, maybe my wheel will spontaneously explode someday?

kickstand · Sep 14, 2016

Ghetto Core = 26 dh tires and 26 dh tubes, nary a problem besides dented rims.

27.5 I haven't had the same such luck with tubes, I also wasn't able to find DH tubes at the time of swapping over to the 27.5 shit....so I thought it a good time to try tubeless, home made sealant (run 8-12 fl. oz for piece of mind), glitter, and so far I've only had one flat I can recall, and that episode was due to coming up short on a jump and flat spotting the rim and blowing the tire off the rim.

Wife and I are both running plain old tubeless, do about 10 races each per year on east coast gnarly rocky omg

I'm not so sold on the need for procore.

kickstand · Sep 14, 2016

Udi said:
Usually comes down to a function of rider weight vs. casing/weight vs. pressure.

Assuming DH tyres since you mentioned it, there's still the missing factors of rider weight (which we can assume as some average number) - leaving pressure as the last piece of the puzzle.

I think for a lot of people the benefit of procore is being able to run lower pressure without rim damage / tyre damage / air loss, and also with less squirm/roll/fold than you'd usually get even if you could run the pressures that low without the concerns of failure.

The other benefit is the ability to potentially get away with a slightly lighter casing like SG or DD for those running full DH casings.

Just playing devil's advocate here, I'm not using it personally, just thought this thread needed to exist since it does potentially offer some benefits. Obviously not all benefits apply to everyone, but it's cool to hear everyone's experiences and setups.

Nothing wrong with the discussion. I like the concept of pro-core, I'm just not having enough problems with the other systems to see the need to change.

Happymtb.fr · Jun 3, 2017

More about ghettocore: I have done a limited search for light tubular which showed that the tubular for tracks (velodrome) are the lightest you can get but the width is limited to 21 or 22 mm. So far I have been using tubular with the same or a slightly inferior width as the internal width of my rims, it ensures that the tubular press the outer tire against the rim and thus theoretically helps against burping. I didn't burp a tire with ghettocore yet but it doesn't mean that it is impossible!

Anyway, I went on with Vittoria Rally since it is cheap and easily available. I use the 25mm version on 27mm rims (IW) and 27.5, it has a tighter fit against the rim than on 26" wheels but it will probably put too much pressure on your rim if you inflate the tubular above 5-6 bar.

The stock weight is 320g but after removing the tire thread and grinding some of the rubber, it went down to 250g. I didn't push it so it might be possible to go lower. This model is made of cotton cloth and will therefore absorb some of the sealant...

richardbigman · Jun 3, 2017

ok, my experience wit Procore, 1 i weigh 15stone/220lbs ish and ride the small bike like my DH bike, just smash stuff and hope for the best, did 300km/ in the alps last year using e13 trs rims, wtb tough casing vigilante tires running 23 psi front 26ish rear and had NO flats or even burped a tire all week.

so I'm sold on the system, piles of grip and reliable, the weight is an issue for anyone that does Loads of climbing and the valves do clog up, (had to get one off with a hacksaw which is never good) but it beats the hell out of tubes/normal tubless

buckoW · Jun 6, 2017

I'm having excellent results with Cush Core lately. It really locks the bead in place and stabilises the base of the tire in corners. I don't have to go up as much in tire pressure when riding hard g-outs in the bike park. It also seems to give the suspension a more progressive feel with more traction on small stuff. The only downside is mounting them. I must be doing it wrong!
They are 250g per insert.

dcamp29 · Jun 6, 2017

same experience here with cush-core. I tried a bunch of ghetto stuff, none of it worked (go figure) and then bought the cush core.

Did a race in New Mexico with metal rims, cush-cores and DD maxxis tires front and rear. I only got one practice run on each of the 4 tracks so I had roughly no idea where I was going- just blindly smashed my trail bike into rocks for a day and had no issues- no burping, no flats only pinged the rim a few times when it would have been 20+ times without the cush cores. Bike weighed 34 lbs. The extra wheel weight was good in flat rock-gardens- the bike just doesn't slow down as quickly.

very nice.

mtg · Jun 6, 2017

Huck Norris has been working well for me recently. It's surely less of a bottom out protector than Cush Core, but also 80g per tire vs 250g. There have been a few hits that would have typically either snake bit the tire and/or smashed the rim where I kept riding with Huck Norris.

Sandwich · Jun 8, 2017

did anybody ever try the pipe insulation wrapped in a loop?

slimshady · Jun 8, 2017

Sandwich said:
did anybody ever try the pipe insulation wrapped in a loop?

I was thinking of trying it, but prepping it by coating it with a dab of sealant and allowing it to dry before placing it in the tire. I dipped a little piece of it in my usual tubeless sealant and it absorbed it pretty quickly, so I was worried it'll might leave the interior of the tires bone dry in no time.

Procore / Ghettocore progress thread

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