[Stiff]

The hunters in this area are really in control of the shed. They are in with the local lawmakers

We might all want to make a point to support the BBQ/beer/grocery shack at the bottom of the trout stream (Mountaindale Rd?). Good BBQ and more beer than just Miller. It's right around the corner from a hunting/fishing lodge. If they see that we support their community and that we're not all metrosexual hipsters who listen to the Village People, they'll support us. I hope.

 

[llkoolkeg]

We might all want to make a point to support the BBQ/beer/grocery shack at the bottom of the trout stream (Mountaindale Rd?). Good BBQ and more beer than just Miller. It's right around the corner from a hunting/fishing lodge. If they see that we support their community and that we're not all metrosexual hipsters who listen to the Village People, they'll support us. I hope.

That place rules. It has been my favorite post-ride munchie option for quite some time. Im not sure that my muddy, bleary-eyed visage is necessarily the image you'd hope to project, though.

Three cheers for the fritters!

 

[whale]

That place rules. It has been my favorite post-ride munchie option for quite some time. Im not sure that my muddy, bleary-eyed visage is necessarily the image you'd hope to project, though.

Three cheers for the fritters!

corn fritters and sam adams cream stout!

 

[vogey40]

Yeah, everyone hates MTBers Enough with the self pity, you are building something illegal and then bitching when it gets torn down. If you want it to stay, then get permission. Like it or not, that's how the law is. We'd all love if we had free reign to build all the trails we want, but unless you own the property that's not how the game is played.

I'm sure you would be fine with a bunch of equestrians building some horse jumps in your front yard and then using them whenever they want. Right?

You know what my bad your right. Ill stop whining. Just hate when people kill the fun.

 

[Paris]

We have been secretive and unorganized because, well, that's what Frederick wanted and maybe still wants. It's served the community well for a while now - but like you wrote it can be so much better, and I'm not convinced the status quo works any longer.

FWIW, few of us are teenagers or college students; most of us are small business owners, craftsmen, government policy proles, a lawyer wannabe, a frikkin space scientist, a fireman, a robotic engineer or something equally mystifying, and some bike shop wonks. Sorta like the Village People but not gay.

Definately I'm not, but don't assume that everyone is "strait", it's cool...

Keep the shed mellow cause it's all we got.

 

[Stiff]

Definately I'm not, but don't assume that everyone is "strait", it's cool...QUOTE]

I dunno man, your RM photo tells another story.... If you prefer the company of men Paris (as in Gay Pah-ree?), that's ok with me. Don't worry I won't tell, it's mellow.

Really I couldn't care less. I mean I voted for Kerry and support gay marriage for all.

 

[_bp]

It seems as though we might be thinking about selling these trails as "extreme trails." Why? Difficulty level is relative. Many would consider the pre-existing xc trails "extreme." Why don't we just propose new trails sans the difficulty adjectives. I understand that there may be complexities surrounding this, but I thought I would bring it up. This is also not really factoring in stunts. We don't even have to call them bike trails, just stipulate that they remain open to bikes. The decision makers are likely not cyclists and therefore unable to know the intricacies of sport. When permission is granted, we just build trails that only really attract the gravity crowd. This could open a backdoor for our entry. If we were to build a coalition of groups, hikers, hunters, and anybody on a bike, then our line to the top may become more direct and action would encounter less resistance. Now for the tricky part. We enter the dialogue as cyclists, not downhillers, working perhaps under the umbrella of MORE, or another, but speak on behalf of ourselves. We also make independent appeals to the non-cycling groups, prior to any formal proposal. Explain to them that we want to build trails open to them, but the freedom of design is ours alone. That way they can't lose. The gain a trail they might not like, but have nothing at stake if they don't like it. And along this road, hopefully we can help to break down any wall of misperception and animosity. Also, this will likely prevent any retaliations from any unhappy parties.
-brian

 

[willpowa]

Stiff has offered to write said proposal. I think that we should all get together, maybe with Clide and Philip, and decide what exactly what we want it to say.

Ay Stiff, would you be interested in posting this proposal when you have a workable draft?
Might be a good idea for folks to sit down face to face to work out the details.
The ecological background of manmade trail features is the most important point to enlighten people of. The basic formula is this: trails can be built in seemingly unridable areas and conditions to dramatically reduce the impact of all user groups. In theory, even a swamp like Patapsco could be sustainably ridable in the rain if the trails were built in a manner to accomodate. The catch is: the amount of work required to accomplish this is immense; on Mt Seymour in N Van, every Sunday is trail day, for instance. Every single Sunday, tons of folks working on a given trail.

$hit's still going to be sabotaged, though, no matter how popular or legitimate MTBn is.

 

[Paris]

Definately I'm not, but don't assume that everyone is "strait", it's cool...QUOTE]

I dunno man, your RM photo tells another story.... If you prefer the company of men Paris (as in Gay Pah-ree?), that's ok with me. Don't worry I won't tell, it's mellow.

Really I couldn't care less. I mean I voted for Kerry and support gay marriage for all.

My RM photo, you like? Kiss kiss

I guess we're all "weird" in are own ways, eh?

 

[NotQuiteJdm]

so yeah..what happened to whitetail?

 

[Capt. Jack Sparrow]

Dear Movers and Shakers, please PM me with any details of how I can help. I'd like to see us all concentrate on keeping the 'Shed's trails open to us... I think the building issue should wait. People can re-create the Northshore in their backyards, but for now, we need to try to keep these trails ours as much as they are anybody else's. Whoever's responsible for the sabotage probably doesn't give a rat's tail about the differences between DHing and FR. All they know is that bikers are in "their" territory.

 

[TOMMY]

so yeah..what happened to whitetail?

My understanding (which is probably wrong) is/was new owners and money. The last summer opened for DHing they were running the lifts during the week and not getting crowds. The weekends had the crowds, just not enough to cover the difference. The races drew large crowds. The courses were great. Then I think it was sold over the winter. Either the new or old owners didn't see the money in keeping it opened for biking. They were approached with the idea of shuttling. They were approached with the idea of letting us ride/walk to the top. Both ideas got denied. I think the overhead just kills the idea. The fact that I paid $99 for a season's pass, lift tickets were $15-20 probably didn't help either. Maybe approach them again late in the ski season. With the emergence of Snowshoe's cycling program, Whitetail might be optimistic. Who knows?

 

[NotQuiteJdm]

I think they would get alot more business now then before, I know I'd def. get a membership!

 

[astr0moose]

and start making a concerted effort to make a difference. A few, random riders complaining, then rebuilding won't do ****. I've been there for 20 years now. This is not news. You guys just going and deciding you can make stuff on public property without permission didn't do much good, either. And no, I did not tear anything you made down.

Take to heart all on this board you are LUCKY--LUCKY--that MORE existis. It is one of the leading MTB advocacy organizations in the world.

Everyone here, pony-up 20 or so bucks (a pittance compared to the thousands you dropped on wheels with springs) and join. Then go to a meeting, introduce yourself and become immersed in the politics of riding. It's more time than money, but what is love I ask you.

Does it suck? Do you like to ride?

I'll be more than happy to introduce you guys if you're scared. Change will not come overnight.

 

[llkoolkeg]

so yeah..what happened to whitetail?

Excuse me while I remove my cap and place it solemnly over my heart. The best trails around- way better than the 'shed- now but a fond memory. The only reason most any of us go to the 'shed is because it's free and Whitetail is now closed. Hell, that place was fun even w/o a lift ticket. May she R.I.P.

 

[llkoolkeg]

and start making a concerted effort to make a difference. A few, random riders complaining, then rebuilding won't do ****. I've been there for 20 years now. This is not news. You guys just going and deciding you can make stuff on public property without permission didn't do much good, either. And no, I did not tear anything you made down.

Take to heart all on this board you are LUCKY--LUCKY--that MORE existis. It is one of the leading MTB advocacy organizations in the world.

Everyone here, pony-up 20 or so bucks (a pittance compared to the thousands you dropped on wheels with springs) and join. Then go to a meeting, introduce yourself and become immersed in the politics of riding. It's more time than money, but what is love I ask you.

Does it suck? Do you like to ride?

I'll be more than happy to introduce you guys if you're scared. Change will not come overnight.

I don't think this is about a measly $20 or anyone lacking the courage to join MORE; I think many people haven't simply because they(as DH/FR folk) have historically not been made to feel welcome. If the worm has finally turned, that is good news for all.

 

[riderx]

Read these words and take them to heart. The Capt. speaks wisely.

Dear Movers and Shakers, please PM me with any details of how I can help. I'd like to see us all concentrate on keeping the 'Shed's trails open to us... I think the building issue should wait. People can re-create the Northshore in their backyards, but for now, we need to try to keep these trails ours as much as they are anybody else's. Whoever's responsible for the sabotage probably doesn't give a rat's tail about the differences between DHing and FR. All they know is that bikers are in "their" territory.

 

[sguhrofst8]

yeah, i'll agree. some people just dont like bikers...but at least we got to ride the stuff a good bit. this has happened for years to the North Shore. Let's keep our ears open for the nut case who spiked the trial, becuase that was meant to hurt someone or seriously damage someones bike. d**n people!
--z--

 

[onetime]

I would like to organize some sort of area group or club to address these issues as more of an organized force, to attend the county council meetings, write up our requests, and anything else that will help our cause. I think that they would take us more seriously if we do. If you would be interested in this, PM me and we'll get something together!

 

[onetime]

Ay Stiff, would you be interested in posting this proposal when you have a workable draft?
Might be a good idea for folks to sit down face to face to work out the details.
The ecological background of manmade trail features is the most important point to enlighten people of. The basic formula is this: trails can be built in seemingly unridable areas and conditions to dramatically reduce the impact of all user groups. In theory, even a swamp like Patapsco could be sustainably ridable in the rain if the trails were built in a manner to accomodate. The catch is: the amount of work required to accomplish this is immense; on Mt Seymour in N Van, every Sunday is trail day, for instance. Every single Sunday, tons of folks working on a given trail.

$hit's still going to be sabotaged, though, no matter how popular or legitimate MTBn is.

I want everyone to realize that neither stiff or I want to do this alone and without the opinions of other users. This is not just our riding area, we are looking to make this a sustainable situation for everyone.

 

[goofy]

Just so you know the guys of Reading Racing have full permision to build the trails that they have their races on from the the city of Reading and they have people com and tear down stunts and drive nails into stunts with the heads cut off.

But I agree that we need to get our trails legit

 

[willpowa]

I apologize for conjuring images of 300 yd long ladder bridges with double teeters and stuff with my reference to North Van. As anyone who's actually spent any time on those trails can tell you, the really remarkable aspect is tha amount of rock armoring and drainage design to create a sustainable trail. That's what I'm talking about when I say it's possible to have a fall line trail that doesn't erode, etc. Most of what would be required in the Shed is there: rocks, dirt, deadfall. All that's lacking are folks to work.

It's not about throwing down huge stunts everywhere, IMO, it's about coming together to cultivate the sweet trails we have, as well as nurturing our relationship with the locals. There are only trails, not treestand or nature walk or freeride park or date rape or any type other than just plain ol' trails, open to all.

 

[goofy]

PM me for ways I can help.

 

[ROBdropGOboom]

and start making a concerted effort to make a difference. A few, random riders complaining, then rebuilding won't do ****. I've been there for 20 years now. This is not news. You guys just going and deciding you can make stuff on public property without permission didn't do much good, either. And no, I did not tear anything you made down.

Take to heart all on this board you are LUCKY--LUCKY--that MORE existis. It is one of the leading MTB advocacy organizations in the world.

Everyone here, pony-up 20 or so bucks (a pittance compared to the thousands you dropped on wheels with springs) and join. Then go to a meeting, introduce yourself and become immersed in the politics of riding. It's more time than money, but what is love I ask you.

Does it suck? Do you like to ride?

I'll be more than happy to introduce you guys if you're scared. Change will not come overnight.

This has nothing to do with joining or not joining MORE. Why are we lucky, has MORE done anything here? If we had got them involved or had been members and they had done something it would be different. Everyone knows the jumps and RT were illegal. Yeah it sucks, but the issue here is us getting to use the trails and not worry about getting sabatoged anymore.

 

[ROBdropGOboom]

I have a cousin that's a lawyer, so if there is any questions or advice you guys have or need he can help. Also, when I get back I'll help anyway I can.

 

[sguhrofst8]

cool. I am glad to see things are moving. Please let me know what I can do to help. My girlfriend is in Law School right now, so I could pick her brain. Stiff, you got my email, so drop me a line on what I can do. I will agree that the Shed, before any additions, was the best FR/DH trials I had ridden and not paid for. But I will say, every good MTB spot in OH, where I'm from, is on private property, were the owner is a mtn biker and promotes the use of their land for that purpose. Two spots that ring a bell are Vulture's Knob (who had a recent write up in a national mag) and Bean's Bike Park (also online). They both used the policy of trusing bikers and having you drop some cash in a box at the trialhead. With that said, they were the only 2 excellent spots that still remain. All of our other local riding spots were on state, local govt or other property and thru the years have been destroyed or closed to bikers completely. This either cuased 2 things to happen; trials become so secretive that noone but the ones who built them knew where they existed or people just tried to ride anything they found illegally, which cuased and even worse image on the mtn bike community. The funny thing is most of what I say refers to XC riding. The DH and FR scen just seemed to people and XC riders as group of wacked out Adrenaline Junkies just looking for a rush, not interested in trial maintenance, ride on muddy/rainy days etc. Like a few have stated before, we need to rashape the image of the sport. In all reality we are just a bunch of XC guys who like very technical terrain and speed. But if we look at why we bike....its becuase there is something about the outdoors that draws us in just like it draws a hiker, or a trout fisherman or a hunters. I would like to think that people dont bike becuase its the trendy new thing to do and gives them popularity points with their friends.

I apologize for the long winded reply, but to strengthen Stiff's words and others seriously interested we need to come together as an organized group, let them know we are serious are we will play the correct role as a biker and do maintenance etc. Another possibility is to get some connections with landowners that would be pro-biking and allow us to ride on there property. I understand this may open up some unforeseen legality issue, but others have successfully addressed these issues in the past, so there should be no reason why would have an opposite outcome.

I figured at this point we could start an email list of all parties interested in seriously acting on the issue at hand. We could determine a central party to PM and start the list. Please do not put your name on the list unless you plan on putting forth an honest effort.

Cool, that's all I have to say. Hope it helps. Let us know what you think.
--z--

ps, i would be more than happy to install some remote RF video cameras in trees and monitor the area and catch anyone being stupid. Now, you have to ask yourself...am I joking or am I serious.

 

[BigMike]

^^ w0rd to Sketchy up there

 

[Paris]

and start making a concerted effort to make a difference. A few, random riders complaining, then rebuilding won't do ****. I've been there for 20 years now. This is not news. You guys just going and deciding you can make stuff on public property without permission didn't do much good, either. And no, I did not tear anything you made down.

Take to heart all on this board you are LUCKY--LUCKY--that MORE existis. It is one of the leading MTB advocacy organizations in the world

Everyone here, pony-up 20 or so bucks (a pittance compared to the thousands you dropped on wheels with springs) and join. Then go to a meeting, introduce yourself and become immersed in the politics of riding. It's more time than money, but what is love I ask you.

Does it suck? Do you like to ride?

I'll be more than happy to introduce you guys if you're scared. Change will not come overnight.

What can MORE do for DH? I've never see any pro-DH/FR actions taken on the part of MORE.

So, is MORE prepared to go to bat for guys that want to ride dangerous stuff with the constant risk of injury?

I think that is a valid question...

 

[riderx]

What can MORE do for DH? I've never see any pro-DH/FR actions taken on the part of MORE.

What seems to need to be repeated over and over is that groups like MORE are made up of volunteers who are riders just like you and me. You get out what you put in. What MORE is going to give you is credibility when dealing w/ land managers, well established relationships, contacts, etc. They are about keeping trails open and building more trails. They definitely are not against DH/FR trails but they won't jeoprodize the good will they've built w/ trail managers by endorsing illegal building. They make it known that they've got to work within the system or they jeoprodize all the years of work they've already put in. Maybe a better question is what pro-DH/FR actions have you taken?

So, is MORE prepared to go to bat for guys that want to ride dangerous stuff with the constant risk of injury?

I think that is a valid question...

They already do. Everytime you swing a leg over your MTB and hit the trail you are engaging in a dangerous activity with constant risk of injury.

Someone mentioned contacting IMBA earlier in the thread. Well, guess who IMBA just rated as the number one advocacy group on the move? MORE.

I'm sure everone is tired of reading my rants by now, so I'll let it go. I'll make one suggestion though: A good way to distribute info and keep everyone who is interested in the loop is to start a free Yahoo group, call it something like "SaveTheShed" and use it as an email distro list. You can create one here.

 

[whale]

ps, i would be more than happy to install some remote RF video cameras in trees and monitor the area and catch anyone being stupid. Now, you have to ask yourself...am I joking or am I serious.

haha. i actually mentioned something like this to stiff this past weekend. great minds think alike

seriously, let's get a DH/FR group (yahoo, whatever) together to start organizing willing volunteers to put in some time off the bike to work on keeping and giving us more access to the shed. stiff, run with it...

 

[onetime]

What seems to need to be repeated over and over is that groups like MORE are made up of volunteers who are riders just like you and me. You get out what you put in. What MORE is going to give you is credibility when dealing w/ land managers, well established relationships, contacts, etc. They are about keeping trails open and building more trails. They definitely are not against DH/FR trails but they won't jeoprodize the good will they've built w/ trail managers by endorsing illegal building. They make it known that they've got to work within the system or they jeoprodize all the years of work they've already put in. Maybe a better question is what pro-DH/FR actions have you taken?


They already do. Everytime you swing a leg over your MTB and hit the trail you are engaging in a dangerous activity with constant risk of injury.

Someone mentioned contacting IMBA earlier in the thread. Well, guess who IMBA just rated as the number one advocacy group on the move? MORE.

I'm sure everone is tired of reading my rants by now, so I'll let it go. I'll make one suggestion though: A good way to distribute info and keep everyone who is interested in the loop is to start a free Yahoo group, call it something like "SaveTheShed" and use it as an email distro list. You can create one here.

I am really glad to see these posts, they are the truth. As for a Yahoo group, I have set one up called SavetheShed. What can I say, it is a good name for the group. If you are interested in moving forward with this, send me youre E-mail address and I'll add you to the list!

 

[willpowa]

You get out what you put in. What MORE is going to give you is credibility when dealing w/ land managers, well established relationships, contacts, etc.

Stregnth in numbers, and all that.

 

[Paris]

What seems to need to be repeated over and over is that groups like MORE are made up of volunteers who are riders just like you and me. You get out what you put in. What MORE is going to give you is credibility when dealing w/ land managers, well established relationships, contacts, etc. They are about keeping trails open and building more trails. They definitely are not against DH/FR trails but they won't jeoprodize the good will they've built w/ trail managers by endorsing illegal building. They make it known that they've got to work within the system or they jeoprodize all the years of work they've already put in. Maybe a better question is what pro-DH/FR actions have you taken?

Well, obviously I'm asking because I haven't done anything...and sure I understand you get out what you put in, however it has always seemed to me and to others that constructed stunts i.e. ladders or "skinnies" and jumps were frowned upon by MORE.

Would you agree?

They already do. Everytime you swing a leg over your MTB and hit the trail you are engaging in a dangerous activity with constant risk of injury.

Yes everytime you ride, you are at risk. But a Sunday stroll out a Schaeffer is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about jumping, drops, and other styles of so-called "extreme" riding. The risk factor is much higher here, so I guess my real question is: Is MORE prepared to defend or better yet ENDORSE this style of riding?

See I think, and I may be wrong that a lot of us see MORE as sort of an XC rider's organization, not in tune with what we like to ride...

 

[riderx]

I am really glad to see these posts, they are the truth. As for a Yahoo group, I have set one up called SavetheShed. What can I say, it is a good name for the group. If you are interested in moving forward with this, send me youre E-mail address and I'll add you to the list!

Thanks for doing that. Can you just post the link to the group? That way people can sign up on their own. No need for you to spend time adding users, keep the overhead to a minimum.

 

[willpowa]

See I think, and I may be wrong that a lot of us see MORE as sort of an XC rider's organization, not in tune with what we like to ride...

It IS sort of XC org., but it's probably flexible enough to be influenced by an organized subfaction of technical riders...provided those types can organize! Better to try and fail than not try and keep getting burnt and feeling like a chump. My fam just joined up last night...$35 beans I can't really spare with a hungry 1yo.

 

[riderx]

it has always seemed to me and to others that constructed stunts i.e. ladders or "skinnies" and jumps were frowned upon by MORE.

Would you agree?

No.

But a Sunday stroll out a Schaeffer is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about jumping, drops, and other styles of so-called "extreme" riding. The risk factor is much higher here, so I guess my real question is: Is MORE prepared to defend or better yet ENDORSE this style of riding?

No, we aren't talking about Schaeffer, but for an inexperienced rider there are huge risk factors and the same types of injuries can be had as there can be for the experience who ride the shed or any other type "extreme" riding. Think broken collarbones, etc. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that the inexperience riders are higher liability to land owners since it's easier for them to get injured and I'd bet they are more likely to sue. Most experience riders accept the risk of what we are doing as part of the sport.

And just as an FYI, I am NOT a spokesperson for MORE, I'm strictly offering my opinion based on my experience.

See I think, and I may be wrong that a lot of us see MORE as sort of an XC rider's organization, not in tune with what we like to ride...

See previous rants in this thread addressing this issue, I'm not going to type this over.

 

[BikeGeek]

Well, obviously I'm asking because I haven't done anything...and sure I understand you get out what you put in, however it has always seemed to me and to others that constructed stunts i.e. ladders or "skinnies" and jumps were frowned upon by MORE.

No, the illegal building of the features is what MORE frowns upon.

Yes everytime you ride, you are at risk. But a Sunday stroll out a Schaeffer is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about jumping, drops, and other styles of so-called "extreme" riding. The risk factor is much higher here, so I guess my real question is: Is MORE prepared to defend or better yet ENDORSE this style of riding?

MORE is, and has. Two years ago, MORE took a group of freeriders to Greenbriar to look at a potential FR park venue. First they deemed the terrain too mellow, then said they couldn't wait the 18 months to two years for approval. What they failed to realize was that it was a foot in the door. Even if it wasn't extreme enough it was an opportunity to prove that it could work giving future access endeavors a bit more ground to stand on. For the record, Schaeffer took 3 years to get approval.

See I think, and I may be wrong that a lot of us see MORE as sort of an XC rider's organization, not in tune with what we like to ride...

And it's easy to understand where that perception comes from since there have been numerous occasions where land managers have asked us to remove illegal features or lose access. This happened at Schaeffer not so long ago. MORE as an organization does not go out and randomly tear stuff down.

Whether you believe that or not, I think MORE is your best ally right now. They've expressed an interest in pursuing this type of trail in the past and they have years of experience in working with land managers and the Government at all levels.

 

[onetime]

So, the group is savetheshed@yahoogroups.com. We can all hash out our thoughts there. My one comment on the recent threads about MORE is that they are here to represent us. They are not the ones who actually veto any plans, that is done by those in control of the area in question. As for getting approved for "stunts", or rather the usual lack thereof, I think our first priority should be trails in general. We should look into some steeper sections with already existing features. But i'm getting ahead of myself, like I said we can all talk about it on the group site and at the meeting.

 

[corey_rideDC]

http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/Savetheshed/

thanks for setting that up and for all your work so far Hillary!

 

[Stiff]

and start making a concerted effort to make a difference. A few, random riders complaining, then rebuilding won't do ****. I've been there for 20 years now. This is not news. You guys just going and deciding you can make stuff on public property without permission didn't do much good, either. And no, I did not tear anything you made down.

Take to heart all on this board you are LUCKY--LUCKY--that MORE existis. It is one of the leading MTB advocacy organizations in the world.

Everyone here, pony-up 20 or so bucks (a pittance compared to the thousands you dropped on wheels with springs) and join. Then go to a meeting, introduce yourself and become immersed in the politics of riding. It's more time than money, but what is love I ask you.

Does it suck? Do you like to ride?

I'll be more than happy to introduce you guys if you're scared. Change will not come overnight.

Read the whole thread guy.