[LordOpie]

And don't worry, I won't be an Indian-Giver* and delete this thread. Now, me being a Jew, I might decide to charge unreasonable prices for admission later on.

* And speaking of Indian-giver, where did that expression come from? (I ask that sincerely). I mean, it's not like they took back their land, right?


umm, ok, so let the debating resume...


PS: Make it good cuz my Monday and Wednesdays at work are typically mind-numbingly boring.

 

[indieboy]

Originally posted by LordOpie
And don't worry, I won't be an Indian-Giver* and delete this thread. Now, me being a Jew, I might decide to charge unreasonable prices for admission later on.

* And speaking of Indian-giver, where did that expression come from? (I ask that sincerely). I mean, it's not like they took back their land, right?


umm, ok, so let the debating resume...


PS: Make it good cuz my Monday and Wednesdays at work are typically mind-numbingly boring.

i think you are a racist southern hatin bastard and i say you delete this now :devil:

 

[manimal]

ok, i'll bite....8:45pm on a sunday night at work makes the monkey my only source of conversation....


-racism as a whole is unacceptable and can be overcome.

-resorting to "i'm (insert ethnic code here), and have been repressed, give me free stuff" is definitely not cool and i will fight it.

-everyone has an opportunity to excel in todays world, whether the individual sees it or not is an initiative issue, not a race issue.

-asking me to pay for how your descendants were treated is a bit ludicrous and selfish, heck, i'm technically a cherokee indian with rights to tribal land and benefits but i'm not cashing in on my ancestors toils. it's called taking responsibility for your own life instead of victimizing yourself.

that's all the ammo i can think of for now....

 

[rbx]

I agree manimal but you have to acknowledge the fact that there are ethnic groups that are poorer then others.

 

[manimal]

Originally posted by rbx
I agree manimal but you have to acknowledge the fact that there are ethnic groups that are poorer then others.

agreed, some are born into poverty; is that an excuse for an individual to get a free ride? i think not. adapt and overcome, no one is stopping anyone from becoming what they want.

 

[rbx]

Originally posted by manimal
agreed, some are born into poverty; is that an excuse for an individual to get a free ride? i think not. adapt and overcome, no one is stopping anyone from becoming what they want.

not a free-ride i would never advocate that sort of thing, but atleast a fighting chance with more funding towards better schooling and stuff,give the underprivileged person atleast the right tools so he or she can get them self out of their situation.

 

[valve bouncer]

Originally posted by manimal
agreed, some are born into poverty; is that an excuse for an individual to get a free ride? i think not. adapt and overcome, no one is stopping anyone from becoming what they want.

I need you to explain some things here. If people are equal, i.e no one race is superior to another and society is equal, i.e society gives people of equal races equal oppurtunities how do you then explain the very real differences between different ethnic groups in terms of socio-economic standing, imprisonment rates, education levels, health, infant mortality, addiction rates and so on. White supremacists look at these kinds of things and conclude that it is a sign of the superiority of whites. Now I take it you don't believe that kind of Aryan idiocy. So I guess my question is Manimal, to what do you attribute these very real differences?
I feel the situation is far more complex than simply saying "it's up to you, you can do it if you really want" and other similar homilies.

 

[manimal]

to answer both questions:

my use of the "adapt and overcome" is not meant to portray an ideal that if you can't make it in society that it's 100% your fault. it is simply making the point that people overcome great adversity on a daily basis and using the socio-economic copout is not always a good excuse. yes, i believe that not everyone has the same opportunities to excel, nothing is fair and unfortunately, some will have to work harder than others to succeed.

...but it still depends on that person's own initiative. yes, many schools are underfunded and aren't very good at putting out educated/passing students, but my question is still to that student. "were you given an opportunity to get an education?" "what did you do with your time" "what excuse do you have for failing/not succeeding......." "was it your fault or the fault of the "system"?

perhaps i'm just too much of a personal responsibility hound but i still don't believe that preferrential treatment should be given based on one's financial/ethnic background. for instance, a job interview should be like this:

2 applicants. both applicants take the same test, no names or demographic info. 1 applicant marks his name with a circle, the other with a square. whichever one is the most qualified gets the job and the employer just knows them initially as either "square" or "circle".

until we can make people de-victimize themselves, we'll always have that part of society screaming out for freebies.

 

[Serial Midget]

Originally posted by valve bouncer
to what do you attribute these very real differences?

Environmental circumstances, parenting, education/employment opportunities and the influences of an individual's peer group.

 

[manimal]

Originally posted by Serial Midget
Environmental circumstances, parenting, education/employment opportunities and the influences of an individual's peer group.

well put.

 

[Serial Midget]

Originally posted by manimal
well put.

Thank you. I'll resume being a dickhead now.

 

[ohio]

Originally posted by Serial Midget
Environmental circumstances, parenting, education/employment opportunities and the influences of an individual's peer group.

Race drastically affects one, three, and four.

 

[manimal]

Originally posted by ohio
Race drastically affects one, three, and four.

Only by choice.


Economical - somewhat agree, but being poor is universal regardless of race

Employment - disagree. I'd like to see a corporation turn down a qualified candidate based on race alone.

Peer group - disagree, obviously "birds of a feather flock together" but using "i have bad friends" as an excuse to why you are "repressed" won't fly.

 

[Serial Midget]

Originally posted by ohio
Race drastically affects one, three, and four.

But two can easily overcome all 3.

While there is no easy answer, there are a multitude of convenient excuses - race is the most convient of all. Poverty and depravity know no racial boundries - there's plenty of white trash to go around.

 

[manimal]

Originally posted by Serial Midget
But two can easily overcome all 3.

While there is no easy - there's plenty of white trash to go around.

why didn't you tell me you were coming to my town!!

 

[Serial Midget]

Originally posted by manimal
why didn't you tell me you were coming to my town!!

Aberdeen, WA = White Trash capitol of the entire West Coast. We have double digit unemployment but make up for it by parking cars in the front yard.

Oh... and our welfare babes are VERY well fed.

 

[valve bouncer]

Originally posted by Serial Midget
Environmental circumstances, parenting, education/employment opportunities and the influences of an individual's peer group.

I guess I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me why these things are different between different ethnic groups in a supposedly "equal" society. Environmental circumstances is such a vague phrase as to be practically meaningless in this context, you'll need to expand on that point SM. Parenting? You infer that some ethnic groups are better parents than others, how so? Why is that? Education/employment oppurtunities are patently un-equal, the cycle of poverty is an easily observable fact, why do some ethnic groups find themselves mired in this viscous circle? Peer group pressure? Again why has this situation developed, why is it more pervasive in some groups than others? These are questions that deserve more than a one line response SM.

 

[Serial Midget]

My whole point is that the inequities you speak of are by no means limited to ethnic minorities.

I have never suggested that any group of parents is better than another – you read too much into that one.

I am saying that some parents are more successful at raising children than others; being a good parent has nothing to do with race.

As for an equal society, well – we’re not socialist.

An equal society simply means equal rights and equal protection under the law… it doesn’t mean everyone is served an equal portion of the American dream. It does mean that everyone should have equal access to those services our government provides.

The fact is that millions of immigrants have come to this country with little education, no money and no financial or social support. Those who are willing to work hard are rewarded for their efforts while those who are looking for a free ride are always disappointed.

Originally posted by valve bouncer
I guess I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me why these things are different between different ethnic groups in a supposedly "equal" society. Environmental circumstances is such a vague phrase as to be practically meaningless in this context, you'll need to expand on that point SM. Parenting? You infer that some ethnic groups are better parents than others, how so? Why is that? Education/employment oppurtunities are patently un-equal, the cycle of poverty is an easily observable fact, why do some ethnic groups find themselves mired in this viscous circle? Peer group pressure? Again why has this situation developed, why is it more pervasive in some groups than others? These are questions that deserve more than a one line response SM.

 

[Serial Midget]

VB - here is an interesting report from my neighborhood elementary school. Note the challenges, poverty rate and ethnic breakdown. I think it will show you that the problems associated with poverty, poor educational and/or employment opportunities are in no way restricted to ethnic minorities.

School Report

 

[the BIG cheese]

Originally posted by valve bouncer
I guess I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me why these things are different between different ethnic groups in a supposedly "equal" society. Environmental circumstances is such a vague phrase as to be practically meaningless in this context, you'll need to expand on that point SM. Parenting? You infer that some ethnic groups are better parents than others, how so? Why is that? Education/employment oppurtunities are patently un-equal, the cycle of poverty is an easily observable fact, why do some ethnic groups find themselves mired in this viscous circle? Peer group pressure? Again why has this situation developed, why is it more pervasive in some groups than others? These are questions that deserve more than a one line response SM.

well, the problem here is that its not even supposedly a equal society, ITS VERY UNEQUAL. and im not just talking about minorities. its for all. rich-poor,black-white whatever.

The reason they cant get out of the circle is because those who stay in dont take enough initiative to get out. (example - finishing high school, not getting mixed up in gangs, staying away from the big drugs, not mary jane, crime, drinking heavily, violence) these kinds of actions oppress themselves. Another thing is they might not know how to get out, but when i look around i see alot of successful jews,blacks, rednecks and people that were below the poverty line at one point in time.

it doesnt matter where you come from, its what you make of it.

 

[valve bouncer]

Originally posted by the BIG cheese


Another thing is they might not know how to get out, but when i look around i see alot of successful jews,blacks, rednecks and people that were below the poverty line at one point in time.

it doesnt matter where you come from, its what you make of it.

Well there were rich black people in South Africa during apartheid as well as poor white people. No-one is saying that that system was fair for black people but some exceptional people prospered. Most didn't. Now I'm not comparing the present situation in Australia/America/Canada etc to apartheid South Africa, but the point is why are some groups ON AVERAGE poorer, less well-educated and over-represented in the criminal justice system compared to others. No-one has adequately explained why this is so. I think you all know but are dancing around the point. The point is that many ethnic groups are still dealing with the legacy of past injustice and inequality as well as the lingering effects of racism. Is it as bad as it was? No, of course not, does the past still affect the present? Of course it does. The only reason why some ethnic groups are doing poorly can be traced directly back to historical circumstance. To believe otherwise is to believe that whites are superior to blacks, browns etc which is patently nonsense.

 

[LordOpie]

Originally posted by the BIG cheese
not getting mixed up in gangs

uhh, have you even been to the inner-city*? If you don't join a gang, you're very likely to get killed. I had to sit on a murder trial cuz to african-american sick fvcks killed a hatian-american kid who was a good kid just cuz he was hatian-american and he had no one to watch his back. They were all poor and were all "black".




*PS: This was an unfortunate and typical situation in Fort Lauderdale, Florida... I don't consider this an inner-city and yet, it's even harder to survive in a "real" inner-city.

 

[manimal]

Originally posted by valve bouncer
The only reason why some ethnic groups are doing poorly can be traced directly back to historical circumstance. To believe otherwise is to believe that whites are superior to blacks, browns etc which is patently nonsense.

spoken like a true victim

so when does this cycle end? will the individual ever be responsible for his/her own actions/circumstances? we will NEVER be able to sort out all of the possible "what if's" as it pertains to generational deficiencies.

how does believing otherwise relate to being a supremecist? because i believe that an individual can overcome dire circumstances does that make me a biggot?

the reason many ethnic groups are stuck in the "cycle" is because the government keeps giving copouts and handouts to keep them from getting out of the hole. progression cannot occur until the victim mentality is laid to rest.

 

[valve bouncer]

Originally posted by manimal
spoken like a true victim

so when does this cycle end? will the individual ever be responsible for his/her own actions/circumstances? we will NEVER be able to sort out all of the possible "what if's" as it pertains to generational deficiencies.

how does believing otherwise relate to being a supremecist? because i believe that an individual can overcome dire circumstances does that make me a biggot?

the reason many ethnic groups are stuck in the "cycle" is because the government keeps giving copouts and handouts to keep them from getting out of the hole. progression cannot occur until the victim mentality is laid to rest.

Great keep avoiding the question, you'd make a great politician Manimal. Here it is again. Why do some ethnic groups do better/worse than others on socio-economic indicators? Try and answer it this time.

 

[manimal]

Originally posted by valve bouncer

Great keep avoiding the question, you'd make a great politician Manimal. Here it is again. Why do some ethnic groups do better/worse than others on socio-economic indicators? Try and answer it this time.

i thought i just did answer the question.

"the reason many ethnic groups are stuck in the "cycle" is because the government keeps giving copouts and handouts to keep them from getting out of the hole. progression cannot occur until the victim mentality is laid to rest. "

 

[ohio]

Originally posted by manimal
Only by choice.


Economical - somewhat agree, but being poor is universal regardless of race

Employment - disagree. I'd like to see a corporation turn down a qualified candidate based on race alone.

Peer group - disagree, obviously "birds of a feather flock together" but using "i have bad friends" as an excuse to why you are "repressed" won't fly.

My mistake. I meant "correlates with", not "affects."

Because of this race is a strong indicator of where someone will stand in 3 of those 4 categories. I'm not saying it's the one we should use...

 

[valve bouncer]

Originally posted by manimal
i thought i just did answer the question.

"the reason many ethnic groups are stuck in the "cycle" is because the government keeps giving copouts and handouts to keep them from getting out of the hole. progression cannot occur until the victim mentality is laid to rest. "

If it were only that simple Manimal, and maybe in your world it is but simply saying you're a whiner and you better pull yourself together isn't gonna work. The problems are far far more complex than you make them out to be. So how did this problem come about in the first place? How do you suggest a person gets out of the hole when this person has no role models, no education, no way to get money except by unlawful means and a society that views them at best a menace at worst something akin to an animal. Sure people do it but they are the exceptions that make the rule. Do you think people actively seek victim status, I'm sure it's wonderful being at the bottom strata of society
Do you think people wake up one morning and say "f*ck it, I give up, I'll be a victim"? Of course not, in a lot of cases they're doing what they have to get by. It's not so much these people don't have choices, it's they don't have access to these choices. There's no light at the end of their tunnel.
You call it a victim mentality, I say you are blaming the victim. You say cut 'em loose, I say try harder, start now. Yours is a give up mentality Manimal because you think people can't, won't and shouldn't be helped. Compassion and empathy may be words absent from your dictionary and generally out of favour in this dog eat dog world but they'll never be cut from mine.

 

[ohio]

Originally posted by manimal
i thought i just did answer the question.

"the reason many ethnic groups are stuck in the "cycle" is because the government keeps giving copouts and handouts to keep them from getting out of the hole. progression cannot occur until the victim mentality is laid to rest. "

Clarify for me: Are you saying that the more opportunities one is given without "earning" them, the less likely a person is to succeed? Sorry boss, but you're going to have a hard time proving that one.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Originally posted by ohio
Clarify for me: Are you saying that the more opportunities one is given without "earning" them, the less likely a person is to succeed? Sorry boss, but you're going to have a hard time proving that one.

I think you know what he means, that when the free handouts are enough...there's no incentive for anyone to try harder...and why should they?

Most minorities in this country didnt get a great start, but i like to use the example of the asian americans here. The chinese started out as expendable railroad workers, the japanese were put in camps during the war...and yet, today they on average make better grades in school and make more money every year than your average evil whitey.
Do you think racism doesnt exist for asians? Of course it does, but they've managed to succeed through sheer determination. Then, at the opposite end of the spectrum..we have the native americans...who are now given EVERYTHING free...and have yet to truly re-establish themselves. Jews have been opressed for centuries...and are some of the most important and powerful people in the country today.
Now, you ask...why is this the way it is? I believe cultural differences in everything from work ethic to family values affect these people at their roots. I dont believe intelligence or inferiority has anything to do with it. I recently read somewhere that near 70% of African American children are born today into single mother homes, which once again is a step in the wrong direction, but a fact that i believe proves my above point.
Now, the overall culture here in America is progressing, and those that fail to keep up will fall behind. Its that simple. We can subsidize our pants off, but in the end, its up to the people themselves to do the work.

 

[manimal]

Originally posted by BurlySurly
I think you know what he means, that when the free handouts are enough...there's no incentive for anyone to try harder...and why should they?

Most minorities in this country didnt get a great start, but i like to use the example of the asian americans here. The chinese started out as expendable railroad workers, the japanese were put in camps during the war...and yet, today they on average make better grades in school and make more money every year than your average evil whitey.
Do you think racism doesnt exist for asians? Of course it does, but they've managed to succeed through sheer determination. Then, at the opposite end of the spectrum..we have the native americans...who are now given EVERYTHING free...and have yet to truly re-establish themselves. Jews have been opressed for centuries...and are some of the most important and powerful people in the country today.
Now, you ask...why is this the way it is? I believe cultural differences in everything from work ethic to family values affect these people at their roots. I dont believe intelligence or inferiority has anything to do with it. I recently read somewhere that near 70% of African American children are born today into single mother homes, which once again is a step in the wrong direction, but a fact that i believe proves my above point.
Now, the overall culture here in America is progressing, and those that fail to keep up will fall behind. Its that simple. We can subsidize our pants off, but in the end, its up to the people themselves to do the work.

ditto

 

[ohio]

Originally posted by manimal
ditto

That's not what you said.

You said handouts are the CAUSE of failure.
Burly said cultural differences are the cause of failure. Handouts are just a flawed attempt to rectify that.

I'm much more inclined to agree with (parts of) Burly's argument.

However, I do feel that "handouts" if applied properly to ROOT causes, rather than as victimizing band-aid fixes, can affect change for the better.

edit: by the way, Burly, most of your argument is almost exactly the same one I made when I said race as a good indicator of several of the factors (laid out by SM) that affect an individuals ability to succeed.

 

[Serial Midget]

white trash

n. Offensive Slang

1 Used as a disparaging term for a poor white person or poor white people.
2 Used as a disparaging term for a white person or white people perceived as being lazy and ignorant.

What this adds to the discussion... I don't know.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Originally posted by Serial Midget
white trash

n. Offensive Slang

1 Used as a disparaging term for a poor white person or poor white people.
2 Used as a disparaging term for a white person or white people perceived as being lazy and ignorant.

What this adds to the discussion... I don't know.

dumass.

this goes after the "oriental" thing in the other thread.

 

[ohio]

Originally posted by BurlySurly
dumass.

After everything rectums have been through in this country, I am appalled by your flippant use of that slur. The proper term is Anus-American.

 

[Serial Midget]

That's Mr DuMass to you... :angry:

 

[BurlyShirley]

Originally posted by ohio
After everything rectums have been through in this country, I am appalled by your flippant use of that slur. The proper term is Anus-American.

hehehe.

Those Anus-americans have been through alot of SH**. oh hahahhhaa...I Kill me