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Radon Swoop 170??

4130biker

4130biker

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Happymtb.fr

Happymtb.fr

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4130biker said:
Thanks for the link!
That does throw a bit of a wrench in my enthusiasm for pursuing this further. Oh well!
:D
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Sorry about that! :)
Gary said:
But aren't Air shocks progressive in nature?

Can the Vivid air be made to ramp up in the last part of the travel with rubber bands or something?

I've been hovering around the buy button on one of these for weeks.
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You can add spacer which will give you some ramp up at the end of the stroke but you will not be able to get more shaft speed (=more damping) toward the end of the stroke as you can get with a progressive leverage.
norbar said:
You do realize Demo's were flat in the times they were labeled Freeride bikes?
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Freeride? Is that some kind of pre-enduro marketing niche? ;)
 
Gary

Gary

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Happymtb.fr said:
You can add spacer which will give you some ramp up at the end of the stroke but you will not be able to get more shaft speed (=more damping) toward the end of the stroke as you can get with a progressive leverage.
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Sounds perfect to be honest. Never really been that huge a fan of anything other than light damping tunes.
Tell me more about these spacers? What are they and where do they go?
 
norbar

norbar

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Happymtb.fr said:
You can add spacer which will give you some ramp up at the end of the stroke but you will not be able to get more shaft speed (=more damping) toward the end of the stroke as you can get with a progressive leverage.
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A ton of the current crop of dh bikes are either slightly degressive or linear at the end of the stroke. End of the stroke is not a problem. I'd like some early travel progression but everything being linear after sag is ok.
 
Happymtb.fr

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norbar said:
A ton of the current crop of dh bikes are either slightly degressive or linear at the end of the stroke. End of the stroke is not a problem. I'd like some early travel progression but everything being linear after sag is ok.
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Agreed and excuse my mediocre english! We are actually one the same line, it's just hard for me to express myself! :) I was thinking of a completely progressive LR so that you get more and more shaft speed through the travel...
The dh bikes you refer to are progressive on the first 2/3 ofvthe travel, aren't they? But i agree with you that some flattening of the LR at the end of the stroke can be beneficial for air cans.
 
Udi

Udi

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It's the lack of any progression at the start of stroke that's an issue - you generally want a higher leverage value initially to counteract initial preload effects and breakaway forces that all shocks possess, particularly air shocks.

It would probably be okay with a DB coil or X2 coil, but really, there are much better frames out there.
 
norbar

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Udi said:
It's the lack of any progression at the start of stroke that's an issue - you generally want a higher leverage value initially to counteract initial preload effects and breakaway forces that all shocks possess, particularly air shocks.

It would probably be okay with a DB coil or X2 coil, but really, there are much better frames out there.
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I'm really curious about the Knolly Delirium but the GEO + Price is what make this thing interesting. A friend of mine has their dh bike nad it's rather rad.

Also Cube has a nice 180mm fr/enduro bike but their lighter bikes have been known to snap like twigs.
 
Gary

Gary

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Udi said:
you generally want a higher leverage value initially to counteract initial preload effects and breakaway forces that all shocks possess, particularly air shocks.
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Um... What?

Would you mind explaining this?
 
norbar

norbar

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Gary said:
Um... What?

Would you mind explaining this?
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High leverage means same force on the wheel equals to higher force acting on the shock. You need higher force acting on the shock because of the reasons Udi mentioned - preload, friction etc. You know the things that make it "plush" and "pick up leaves"
 
Gary

Gary

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norbar said:
You need higher force acting on the shock because of the reasons Udi mentioned
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But do you? (or is this a case of being super picky over numbers rather than just riding?)

the Swoops curve goes from around 2.85 down to 2.6 and sits around 2.75 at sag.

My old IH Sunday started at 3.2 dropped to 2,4 and ends around 2,5 but also sits around 2.7 at sag

I'm ignoring beginning leverage ratio completely as I've never encountered a long travel bike that doesn't hit sag point the second I step on.

will the Radon not feel similar when actually riding (possibly better due to less regressive ending) than my old Sunday.
'Coz TBF that's pretty much what I'd be after.

I'm interested in this bike as a rideable uphill DH bike.. Uplifts here book up 4 weeks in advance and my lifestyle means I can't ever commit to stuff that far in advance so a DH bike is kinda pointless other than for trips away.
 
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norbar

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Gary said:
But do you? (or is this a case of being super picky over numbers rather than just riding?)

the Swoops curve goes from around 2.85 down to 2.6 and sits around 2.75 at sag.

My old IH Sunday started at 3.2 dropped to 2,4 and ends around 2,5 but also sits around 2.7 at sag

I'm ignoring beginning leverage ratio completely as I've never encountered a long travel bike that doesn't hit sag point the second I step on.

will the Radon not feel similar when actually riding (possibly better due to less regressive ending) than my old Sunday.
'Coz TBF that's pretty much what I'd be after.

I'm interested in this bike as a rideable uphill DH bike.. Uplifts here book up 4 weeks in advance and my lifestyle means I can't ever commit to stuff that far in advance so a DH bike is kinda pointless other than for trips away.
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@Udi will probably explain it better than me since I am a bit retarded in explaining stuff and I tend to ramble but you do realize when you ride your bike doesn't stay in or below sag all the time? Preload is one of the reasons why solo air boxxers felt like total shit yet you can use the same "but i stay in sag" argument about them. You need high leverage in the back in early travel for the same reason why air sprung forks still feel worse than coils (as in their case there is no lever so it's either low friction and preload or you are SOL)
 
T

tabletop84

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why does everybody complain about solo-air boxxers? I didn't push a new boxxer yet but my pike was super smooth initially.
 
Udi

Udi

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Gary said:
Um... What?

Would you mind explaining this?

I'm ignoring beginning leverage ratio completely as I've never encountered a long travel bike that doesn't hit sag point the second I step on.
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1. You run a coil shock in your Sunday presumably, and if it's a DHX5, there are fairly minimal breakaway forces generated by the shock (small shaft = low air preload effects, no air can seal friction, etc). As a result there isn't a lot of bump force required to activate the thing. An air shock requires a greater leverage *change* over the first 1/3 of travel to mimic most coil shocks in bump absorption. If you compare the values you gave - the Swoop has delta of 0.1 in that region while the Sunday has five times as much change. So the Swoop needs more, and has less.

2. You can't just "ignore beginning leverage ratio completely" because while it hits sag "the second you step on", it also exits sag just as quickly every time you leave the ground, gap something in a rough section of trail, ride through any deep braking bumps, etc etc. While you might not appreciate these finer elements, the designer of your bike did and that's why it works as well as it does.

To put a scale on this (since I do realise I'm pickier than average) - if we wanted to classify bikes on a simple good/average/poor scale, I'd rate this as poor - i.e. enough that most people could notice the difference. You can probably do a lot better without looking very hard. It's 2016 and a lot of brands have figured this stuff out. If you want to see an example of "good" just look at any giant reign or trance frame from the last 5 years on that linkagedesign site.

tabletop84 said:
why does everybody complain about solo-air boxxers? I didn't push a new boxxer yet but my pike was super smooth initially.
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I think he means the older ones, the new boxxer feels pretty much the same as the new pike. Pretty good for air stuff and a lot better than previous.
 
Gary

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Ok. I sort of get where you're coming from but will it really be all that bad?
I'm finding it difficult to picture how it will actually translate to riding?

<EDIT> just seen Udi's replied.

Bear with me while I read.

Thanks @Udi If I understand correctly. This problem should mainly translate to how the rear end behaves when hopped, pre-loaded and jumped. ie. it will extend to top out faster?
Sorry. I'm still struggling to see why it's such a poor trait in actual riding situations.

I do know it's 2016... I just wound my pocket watch ;) unfortunately 2016 is right in the midst of PF BB/Carbon frame era. Neither of which interest me.
Otherwise the Capra and Reign might be in the mix...
 
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Udi

Udi

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No @Gary, it's to do with bump absorption!

It's not to do with hopping or preloading, moreso when the wheel hits a bump from a fully extended (or close to it) scenario - which I was just illustrating is actually very common. Far less of the bump is absorbed if you don't have the leverage to overcome inherent breakway forces in the suspension. That's why some progression in the first half of a leverage curve is desirable on any bike, but moreso on bikes with air shocks since they have more breakaway forces to contend with.

It's not that it'll feel like a hardtail, but it'll certainly feel harsher in bumps and hold less traction than a capra or reign (to use your own examples). I think an alloy reign is a pretty solid bike if you can move past the PF thing. If it helps at all, I've had no negative experiences with PF in alloy frames - just been using the cheapest Shimano BBs. I think the creaks are more common with carbon.
 
Gary

Gary

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Hmmm... so it will not absorb bumps so well in the first (pre-sag) portion of the travel and it won't grip so well in that portion either?
But once compressed past that point it's ok? or will it still not be very good at absorbing bumps?

This is confusing the hell out of me.

I kinda like to just jump on a bike and ride it to determine if it is for me but Radon don't have any Demo bikes outside Germany (I did enquire)
I'm not actually expecting DH bike coil shock performance out of this anyway.

Interesting to hear you say PF is alright in alu frames. I only have experience of their shittyness from my carbon road bike.
 
4130biker

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Sounds like @Gary and I are looking at the exact same bikes! @Udi, I like everything about the reign, accept I'm a bit worried about having to run an overly high shock pressure at 210 lbs Does the breakaway force increase as air pressure increases? Do coil shocks work well on the current reign?
 
Flo33

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4130biker said:
Sounds like @Gary and I are looking at the exact same bikes! @Udi, I like everything about the reign, accept I'm a bit worried about having to run an overly high shock pressure at 210 lbs Does the breakaway force increase as air pressure increases? Do coil shocks work well on the current reign?
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That's where the new gen air cans are aiming at. They feature a bigger negative chamber and a deeper equalisation point so the negative chambers pressure is counteracting the breakaway force pretty good. Debon air, Corset or Evol are the magic words.
 
H

herbman

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4130biker said:
Sounds like @Gary and I are looking at the exact same bikes! @Udi, I like everything about the reign, accept I'm a bit worried about having to run an overly high shock pressure at 210 lbs Does the breakaway force increase as air pressure increases? Do coil shocks work well on the current reign?
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Hi my name Brent and I don't like Giants. But now I own a reign, and it is a whole lot of fun. One of the best bikes I have riden full stop.

The rear shock is ok, it is plush off the top and ramps up nice with a few rubber bands in the can. But the lack of mid stroke support from the air spring is what I don't like and will push me into a coil, which I have been told will work well on the reign. Unless I replace it with 2017 trance
 
Gary

Gary

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Thanks @Flo33 .
So if these newer air shocks have come a long way to solving the need for high initial leverage ratio @Udi describes the Swoop 9.0 (comes with Vivid Air) shouldn't actually be all that poor performing at all?
Very few reviews floating around but of all the ones I've found the only mention of the shock not performing too well was in Dirt's* review where they said it had no support in the last 90% of travel. but that was with a Fox Float X (can a Vivid Air sort this by fitting the rubber bands mentioned earlier?)

Oh... my poor wee heid! Buying new bikes is hard :/

Seeing my bank manager in the morning but maybe I should just chuck one of those massive cassettes and a reverb on my old Sunday ;)

(* https://dirtmountainbike.com/bike-reviews/trail-enduro-bikes/radon-swoop-170-top-dog.html )
 
Udi

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4130biker said:
Do coil shocks work well on the current reign?
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Incredibly well. I think you'd be hard pressed to build a better trailbike than that combo.

They improve almost every trailbike currently on the market (since no one actually optimises incredibly well for an air shock aside from Evil - something the delta link allows - and probably makes their trail bikes better with air than coil) so I think as a general rule, if you don't mind the weight and messing around with spring rates, a coil is almost always superior.

Gary said:
Thanks @Flo33 .
So if these newer air shocks have come a long way to solving the need for high initial leverage ratio @Udi describes the Swoop 9.0 (comes with Vivid Air) shouldn't actually be all that poor performing at all?
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It just doesn't work like that.
Modern air cans improve air spring performance but they still aren't good enough to magically compensate a poor leverage curve, and the vorsprung/debonair/evol can equipped shocks still only offer performance approaching (not equating) coil on a frame that is solidly optimised for an air shock already.

By all means buy the bike if you must - but I do call a spade a spade. Find a Reign or a Capra (or a Rune, or anything with a bit more progression aggression in the first half of the stroke) and you'll have a bike that's noticeably superior to ride.
 
Flo33

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Udi said:
By all means buy the bike if you must - but I do call a spade a spade. Find a Reign or a Capra (or a Rune, or anything with a bit more progression aggression in the first half of the stroke) and you'll have a bike that's noticeably superior to ride.
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But, but... the MELTDOWN! :sarcastic:
 
norbar

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tabletop84 said:
why does everybody complain about solo-air boxxers? I didn't push a new boxxer yet but my pike was super smooth initially.
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How much do you weigh? My 2010 felt awesome as long as I was <70kg. Then it felt like shit so I talked to a few people - Craig at Ava, Udi, Steve M and the guys at TF Tuned and they all pointed out it has a serious design flat. TF tuned claims the piston that equalizes pressure between the springs is shit. Craig said over a certain pressure the fork creates excessive preload. I assume newer solo airs are a bit better but tbh when an avy cart boxxer feels worse than a SSV damped marzo you know something is wrong.


PS. Yes as has Udi said. 2010. Newer are better. TF Tuned still claims they are problematic but they are just not shit anymore.
 
T

tabletop84

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I weigh around 75kg rideready and I rode a few pre-charger boxxers which were set up by people without a clue or weird preferences. In short they felt shitty. I think the problem back then was the missing out-of-the-box lubrication and the tolerances which should be better since MY2015 or so.

One problem with the old boxxers being shitty is the lower cartridge-mount being crooked making the cardtridge bind on compressions. There is a guy on a german forum who solved it:

https://fotos.mtb-news.de/s/53774

He also has a pretty good custom cartridge for the boxxer now:

http://www.m-suspensiontech.com/federgabel/boxxer/
 
Dango

Dango

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Myself and two other riding mates have bought different versions of the Swoop this year. All of them have had no threadlock to any bolts or screws. Bike Discounts reply: its good practice to use this during assembly but we dont have to. I personally found this out the hard way when a shock pivot fell out. Have been without this part now for 8 days now as I wait for a replacement. I was told that EVERY bolt should be cheched EVERY ride. I would recommend anyone buying on of these great bikes takes it appart as adds some loctite to every fastener before something falls off. Just a heads up.
 
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