Rim width

Discussion in 'Downhill & Freeride' started by rpet, Jul 12, 2018.

  1. rpet

    rpet Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    18 / 156
    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2003
    Messages:
    2,510
    Location:
    El Lay
    what are the pros using (for racing)?
     

    Please register to disable this ad.

  2. Nick

    Nick My name is Nick

    Rep/Likes:
    257 / 1,994
    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2001
    Messages:
    12,487
    Location:
    behind you, don't wait up.
    I'm using 30mm on my trail bike, 31.6 on the DH.

    I don't know what the other pros are using.
     
    #2 -   Jul 12, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018
    • Funny Funny x 4
    • Like Like x 2
    • Winner Winner x 2
    • Useful Useful x 1
  3. Jm_

    Jm_ Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    132 / 852
    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    7,669
    Location:
    AK
    8
     
    • Useful Useful x 2
  4. mykel

    mykel Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    68 / 363
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2013
    Messages:
    1,353
    Location:
    sw ontario canada
    Actually nicely timed as I was just about to bring up rims.

    I have now folded two WTB I25's in the last couple of years so...
    I need some new rims for the DH bike. From what the cool kids on teh Interwebz tell me I need to go wide.
    So I'm thinking they need to be somewhere in the 30mm range. They also need to be available in 26 and 275 and easily run toobless, with weights under 550gm for the 26. Tires will either be trail-weight with cush-core or full DH with no inserts. I can't ride hard enough anymore to need a total bombproof setup, as I only flat once or twice a season anymore, and that is usually a pinched tube. (SG casing and whaterver the Wildrockr2 is)

    Did a quick look and Blunts and Stans both fit the bill, but there has to be more.

    What would you look at?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. 6thElement

    6thElement Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    58 / 1,095
    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2008
    Messages:
    2,599
    Aren't DT Swiss EX 471's fairly common?

    25mm internal
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Winner Winner x 1
  6. rpet

    rpet Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    18 / 156
    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2003
    Messages:
    2,510
    Location:
    El Lay
    Yea my 25s seem fine...
    I liked the old Flows for trail use, but the new ones are wider.

    I believe some pros are on 511s along with the 471s.

    Deemax are 28

    Looks like the Tues and V10 are specd with 31mm E13s

    I was hoping Pinkbike would have a recent pro rim widths listing but haven’t managed to google it up. Rims are a highly dentist-impacted product so it’s tough to cut through the BS.
     
    #6 -   Jul 13, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2018
  7. KenW449

    KenW449 something stupid

    Rep/Likes:
    20 / 162
    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2017
    Messages:
    1,604
    Location:
    Floating down the whiskey river...
    Im using 28, never folded. Tire is 2.4. Not sure what the DH bike has.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. mykel

    mykel Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    68 / 363
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2013
    Messages:
    1,353
    Location:
    sw ontario canada
  9. Kurt_80

    Kurt_80 Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    8 / 72
    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2016
    Messages:
    102
    Location:
    Perth, WA.
    Light Bicycle 27mm internal with the extra carbon dh layup. Been real good so far.
     
  10. slimshady

    slimshady Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    41 / 434
    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2007
    Messages:
    1,995
    Location:
    La Plata, Argentina
    Alex Rims Volar 3.0, 30mm ID. Have been holding up pretty well, considering I'm a 101 kg hack. Available from midget to Clydesdale wheel sizes, cheap and reliable. They went tubeless with just one loop of kapton tape.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Electric_City

    Electric_City The orangutans are loose!

    Rep/Likes:
    10 / 208
    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2007
    Messages:
    1,085
    Between 25 and 30mm internal width. In 2015 my DH bike was built with DT Swiss fr570 and I believe they're 27.5 mm. In 2017 my 6" bike was built with DT Swiss XM 481 and I think they're 30mm.

    I'm not sure this "wider is better" thing is always true. On the Spartan (481's) with 35psi in the back, I feel the rim hit quite frequently with 2.3" tires. Maybe if I go to 2.5 or 2.6 it would be better, but I thought the point of tubeless was this low pressure capability that seems impossible for me to run.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Gary

    Gary "S" is for "neo-luddite"

    Rep/Likes:
    36 / 476
    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    2,118
    Location:
    UK
    I've been using a 26" Volar 2.5 (25mm internal) on the rear of my Session all year. Despite being crazy light it's held up perfectly. Tubeless was a slight PITA as the rim well is not a great shape for Tesa tape to conform to. I gave up trying to get it to sit nicely and ended up using electrical insulating tape to seal the spoke holes then gorilla tape over the top and it's held air ever since. I don't ever run low pressures though. (38psi for a 2.35 DHF). I'm a bit lighter than you and fairly smooth.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. canadmos

    canadmos Mater Slayer

    Rep/Likes:
    199 / 3,134
    Joined:
    May 29, 2011
    Messages:
    7,532
    Location:
    Canaderp
    38psi.....

     
    • Like Like x 4
    • Useful Useful x 1
  14. slyfink

    slyfink Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    81 / 1,106
    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2008
    Messages:
    4,976
    Location:
    Ottawa, Canada
    If you can get past the name, have a look at the Spank Spike Race 33: https://spank-ind.com/products/spike-race-33-rim

    Pierron runs Spank so they must be good for you too right?!

    I ran Spank Oozy 295 for several years and they were great. Sometimes they can be a challenge to get to set up tubeless, but maybe these wider ones will be a bit easier. I'm pretty sure I will be giving these a try again.

    Then there's also the new WTB rims. They seem to have revamped their alloy composition and rim design. Maybe worth a look?
     
  15. slyfink

    slyfink Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    81 / 1,106
    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2008
    Messages:
    4,976
    Location:
    Ottawa, Canada
    he's already said he likes to slide around on the rear wheel... DHF SS + 38psi + mud = mucho slido.

    can't say he isn't consistent.
     
  16. Cerberus75

    Cerberus75 Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    3 / 19
    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2017
    Messages:
    101
    IMHO Spank makes some of the best alloy rims.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. Nick

    Nick My name is Nick

    Rep/Likes:
    257 / 1,994
    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2001
    Messages:
    12,487
    Location:
    behind you, don't wait up.
    I'll not go any wider than 30mm for any bike. 729s were about the best size rim for old 2.5 DHFs (IMO) and I run 2.4-2.5s on both the trail and DH bike. This new DD rear casing on the trail bike is working well with lower pressures. I was 27/30psi. Last two rides 25/25 but I think I'll bump the rear +1-2psi for peace of mind.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  18. SylentK

    SylentK Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    11 / 153
    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2004
    Messages:
    1,167
    Location:
    coloRADo
    I am currently running 29.5mm internal width on my GG Smash wagon wheeler (Stan's Flow Mk3). I use maxxis 2.4, 2.5 & 2.6" tires. All works really well. I do run Cush Core, too. I'm not pro, just Factory ;)

    I do have WTB Asym 35i for my 27.5+ setup. Maxxis 2.8 on those rims.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. jonKranked

    jonKranked Press Button, Receive Stupid

    Rep/Likes:
    338 / 2,879
    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2005
    Messages:
    50,249
    Location:
    media blackout
    i have a pair of spank 00zy rims as well (i wanna say the 260) and liked it a lot. not very wide though inner width is only 21mm. currently running enve M70's that are 25 itnernal.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. rpet

    rpet Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    18 / 156
    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2003
    Messages:
    2,510
    Location:
    El Lay
    Thanks for all the responses guys!

    That PB article is why I asked the question on here.
    :cheers:

    It’s not scientific, that guy is not a top pro (his times matter to no one) and how he interprets his test results just happen to line up perfectly with the current tastes of dentists and what the upgrade sellers are pushing. He seems to want to sell us 35mm but “The Clock Doesn’t Lie” and his 25 and 40mm times are faster, LOL! The article opens more questions than it answers.

    He might as well be a MTBR dude who “needs” 2.8-3.0 tires for his local Midwest XC loop, cause you know his traction needs are more extreme than a UCI racer.

    So far, I’m thinking rims over 32mm or so is hype.

    I’d like to hear if any 35mm rims are being run at Andorra... I’m guessing not.

    Also wondering if the mean is 30mm or if there is a greater Proportion of riders in the 25-28 range.

    Tracking rim width against rider weight would be interesting to me also.
    I’m getting old, but I’m still not fat!

    EDIT: ignore my 3rd paragraph.. I’m graphically challenged.

     
    #20 -   Jul 13, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2018
  21. mykel

    mykel Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    68 / 363
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2013
    Messages:
    1,353
    Location:
    sw ontario canada
    Fastest time was actually on a 35mm followed by a 30 then a 40.

     
    • Like Like x 1
  22. rpet

    rpet Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    18 / 156
    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2003
    Messages:
    2,510
    Location:
    El Lay
    You’re right, my bad.
    I’d say those last 6 runs may all be too close to call due to imprecision. Would you switch to 35 based on that graph?
     
  23. jonKranked

    jonKranked Press Button, Receive Stupid

    Rep/Likes:
    338 / 2,879
    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2005
    Messages:
    50,249
    Location:
    media blackout
    a graph on the internet is how i make all my bike purchasing decisions
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Funny Funny x 2
    • Useful Useful x 2
  24. slyfink

    slyfink Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    81 / 1,106
    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2008
    Messages:
    4,976
    Location:
    Ottawa, Canada
    I once asked about rim width on one of the tire threads here. I think it was @landcruiser, who designed tires for Specialized at the time (before the "purge"), that said that rim width does push the sidewalls out, changes the contact patch, and provides more sidewall stability. There is truth to this claim. However, the tradeoff is that the sidewalls deform in such a way as to become more prone to sidewall cuts, and especially pinch flats. Sidewall pinch flats have been my bugaboo. I'd slice at least 2 rear tires a year, well before they were worn out. I've solved this issue with DD casing. I am now wearing out corner knobs before tearing the sidewalls.

    A buddy of mine who was the first in my group to jump on the wide rim bandwagon (he's on Ibis rims) told me he has to set his tire pressure either for going fast downhill (higher pressure to avoid rim strikes) which negates the traction advantage on rolling/flat terrain, or for traction on the xc portion of the trail, but then he has to hold back on the descents. He's chosen to stick with the wide rim setup because he's faster over the whole ride and that's what he likes. Me, I don't care about being fast over the whole ride, I want to have fun and smash it on the descents. So that's what I prioritize.

    As a result, I've decided I'm now willing to try up to a 30i rim. Any more, and I feel I'd need a 2.5 tire to retain normail knob height, and I don't feel I need such a wide tire for trail riding. I've also dropped a fair bit of coin in custom suspension tuning (Vorsprung front and rear), so traction and stability are much improved on the whole, regardless of rim width.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  25. Gary

    Gary "S" is for "neo-luddite"

    Rep/Likes:
    36 / 476
    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    2,118
    Location:
    UK
    Is it the UK Matt Wragg? If so I'm fairly confidient OG mavic 719s and panaracer fire XC pros, held onto a 100mm hardtail with QR skewers could beat any of his times on the "graph of truth"

    FWIW I have one 35mm rim. (and absolutely loads of 25-30mm rims) I'd honestly prefer that 35mm rim to be 30mm as I never ever run larger than 2.5 tyres (infact it has a 2.3 on it just now and those sidewalls bulge very slightly further out than ideal)... but it was OEM spec on my stupid fucking Ebike. And the story told to Ebike noobs is they must use 2.8" super traction gnar rated tyres to deal with all those the AWESUMZ EXTRA POWERZ... In reality you really don't need bigger or stickier tyres than your normal bikes have.

    The PB article is almost a copy n paste of what loads of roadbike journalists wrote a few years ago when 25mm and 28mm tyres started to become more popular than 23s and manufacturers started selling wider road rims.
    Bikes honestly aren't that difficult to figure out but most bicycle consumers are dumb as fuck and only seem to get dumber the deeper their pockets.
     
    • Like Like x 4
    • Useful Useful x 2
    • Funny Funny x 1
  26. mykel

    mykel Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    68 / 363
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2013
    Messages:
    1,353
    Location:
    sw ontario canada
    ... and from all of what I have read / heard, the 30mm internal seems to be the sweet spot.
    ... hence my request for 30mm nominal size recommendations.
    You bozos seem to re-enforce / collaborate that thought when you read through all your chirping.

    So, what about symmetric vs asymmetric?
    The whole even tension seems to make more sense regarding wheel stability as opposed to uneven stresses on both spokes and rim.
     
  27. slimshady

    slimshady Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    41 / 434
    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2007
    Messages:
    1,995
    Location:
    La Plata, Argentina
    I use hubs with asymmetric flanges. Easier to find in my country than asymmetric rims, and seem to help with uneven spoke tension.
     
  28. Flo33

    Flo33 Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    16 / 188
    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2015
    Messages:
    737
    Location:
    Styria
    In one of the pit shot articles it was mentioned that a lot of the fast guys are bringing ex471 rims to Andorra instead of the also run ex511. So 25 mm instead of 30 mm internal width. Also Bruni runs them all year round.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  29. rpet

    rpet Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    18 / 156
    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2003
    Messages:
    2,510
    Location:
    El Lay
    Yea idk about Wragg. His follow up comments on that article make me even less likely to trust his opinions.

    In the roadie case, it seems the top tier have adopted wider tires. I don’t think UCI DH has upsized tires in the last... 15-18 years or more?

    https://www.bikeradar.com/us/road/gear/article/tires-of-the-tour-de-france-50337/

     
  30. roflbox

    roflbox Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    32 / 358
    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2017
    Messages:
    1,584
    Location:
    Raleigh, NC
    I am in the hunt for rimz for my new bike, I am planning on running maxxis 2.5wt tires, based on your statement above, I should get 30mm rims?
     
  31. Cerberus75

    Cerberus75 Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    3 / 19
    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2017
    Messages:
    101
    I dont see the need for more than 30mm. A little less in the back to help with rounding the tire and side wall protection might help.

    If you are going to go with carbon I'd stay clear of asym rims. They dont support the weight evenly and can cause rims to crack on hard hits. If you are using aluminum do you need lateral stiffness at the expense of the above?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  32. roflbox

    roflbox Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    32 / 358
    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2017
    Messages:
    1,584
    Location:
    Raleigh, NC
    ty! going with alu :)
     
  33. Gary

    Gary "S" is for "neo-luddite"

    Rep/Likes:
    36 / 476
    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    2,118
    Location:
    UK
    @rpet
    Except for the whole 27.5 and then 29 upsize. No? ;)

    2.35-2.5" tyres has been the sweetspot for DH since the 90s as it's the best compromise between grip/strength/weight and sidewall stiffness/support. 2.6" and above (plus) tyres become increasingly pressure sensitive between dodgy spacehopper handling and squirmy horribleness... aint nobody goin' properly fast on those things despite what we're told about their superiority.

    Don't read too much into what top teir of road pros use. plenty brands 25mm tyres measure up at less than 24mm and up to 2mm the other way round is also true with some other brands. I only just have clearance for 23mm tyres on my roadbike but funnily enough I've run a 25mm.
    This video if you can handle it is from is right around the time road began to push the wider tyres are faster bollocks:



    Those guys don't win because their tyres are a mm wider or narrower. They win because they're on the strongest team, have the best drugs trainers, climber or the best tow to launch their sprint off.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  34. Jm_

    Jm_ Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    132 / 852
    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    7,669
    Location:
    AK
    I agree with 30i it sets a nice profile for what I consider the most optimal tire width range for speed and maneuverability, around 2.3. Outside of this tire range the tires start to suck.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  35. rpet

    rpet Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    18 / 156
    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2003
    Messages:
    2,510
    Location:
    El Lay
    Fair points. I don’t ride or follow road at all, and thought 19mm tires were the norm.

    Ha I remember when we were told 29 tires didn’t need to be as wide as 2.3-2.5 since the contact patch was longer.

     
  36. Jm_

    Jm_ Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    132 / 852
    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    7,669
    Location:
    AK
    I generally find that 2.5 29er tires really start to get sluggish, worth it if it’s a minion DH casing for DH abuse, but it’s going to slow you down a bit. I generally find that 29er tires do provide better traction, but you can’t go to stupid silly narrow widths either like 1.8-2.0 and expect them to work worth a damn.

    I have no idea what they use on the road either, except that I use 305mm.
     
  37. Tantrum Cycles

    Rep/Likes:
    9 / 318
    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2016
    Messages:
    809
    Not Scientific....by a factor of infinty, give or take.

    Believe me, I am a TESTER. A backtobacktobacktoback tester. This includes lap/strava times, but the clock CAN lie. Absolutely.

    In my previous realm of F1/Indycars, we were dealing with .001 seconds, sometimes as the difference between being on pole or not.

    Which is actually, 100% IMPOSSIBLE to calculate, simulate or even verify by actually testing. (TAKE THAT, all you wanna be engineer by program/linkage, etc).

    The increments are too fine, so we look for larger increments, to make sure we're not fooling ourselves, backed up by driver/rider input.

    Motocross and DH mtb are worse, because conditions are more changeable, including rider. AND ability to recognize and communicate what is slowing them down.

    I have been testing all combinations of 27.5 and 29er and mixed wheel bikes form 125 to 165 mm of travel on my local test trails for over a year. I have set PR's on all of them at various times. I have suspicions as to which is ultimately faster, but am withholding my conclusion until even more testing.

    Back to the point of the OP, thru it all, I've settled on DT XM 1502 wheels with 30 mm internal with as my standard. Strong and light, I use Maxxis Minion and High Roller in 2.3-2.5 and they work well. this was the first combo that let me run below 30 psi.

    I have tried and will try again, 26-2.8 tires on 35 mm rims, but still think that is a limited application, rocks and roots.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  38. Jm_

    Jm_ Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    132 / 852
    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    7,669
    Location:
    AK
    I'm pretty sure the only way to test that accurately is with full on enduro pads, a fanny pack, a blue-tooth speaker, and a lot of session IPA.
     
    • Horns Horns x 1
  39. slimshady

    slimshady Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    41 / 434
    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2007
    Messages:
    1,995
    Location:
    La Plata, Argentina
    I'd say a hipster beard is also mandatory.
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  40. Bike078

    Bike078 Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    1 / 52
    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2018
    Messages:
    163
    2.4 DHR II on 30 mm internal width rim. Me likey so far.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1