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Road Tubeless

Silver

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
Four of five stages ago Frankie Andreu did one of those tech things...one of the French teams this year is running tubeless road tires and Mavic rims. Has anyone seen these, or heard anything about them? A little search on google brought up an article on Velonews, but that's about it. They must be close if they are using them at the Tour, I'd think.
 
Nitromike

Nitromike

Monkey
May 14, 2004
233
0
Some ghetto in Houston
Tech Report: A quick look at Michelin's tubeless road tires
By Andrew Juskaitis
VeloNews technical editor
This report filed February 6, 2004

With our 2004 Buyer's Guide entering the critical home stretch, I was hoping I'd be able to dodge this week's Tech Report, but this press release from Michelin was too important to overlook. As rumored for the past three years, tubeless technology is officially making the crossover to the road.

Here are some excerpts from Michelin's release:

Michelin is initially targeting the world of professional road racing in 2004 with three new products: the Michelin Pro Race Tubeless, the Michelin Pro Grip Tubeless and the Michelin Pro Grip Special Paves Tubeless. This year, Michelin-sponsored Division I Professionals road racers will help refine these ground-breaking new products in the most extreme racing conditions, in an effort to make them ready for the consumer market in 2005.

This new tubeless bicycle tire technology was developed in partnership with Mavic, a leader in designing and building world-class wheels, and with numerous European professional road racers. The first Michelin Tubeless road bicycle tires will be available to the general public in 2005, depending on wheel availability.

The Michelin Tubeless concept is based on two components: 1) A tubeless wheel with a special rim designed to hold the tire and bead in position to help ensure air-tightness at high pressure. 2) A Michelin Tubeless tire.

While the advantages of tubeless technology are readily apparent for mountain bikes (ability to run lower tire pressures for increased traction, less chance of pinch-flatting and, in some cases, decreased overall weight), what are the potential benefits for roadies? Once again, according to the Michelin release:

1. Michelin Tubeless road tires help reduce the occurrence of sudden flat tires caused by punctures. Tests with Michelin Tubeless road tires have confirmed that often the cyclist can have several minutes to come to a stop or to continue riding in a race while waiting for a support vehicle, or even to sprint to the finish! Tube-type clinchers or tubular tires, on the other hand, can often go flat in a matter of seconds!

2. Simple to mount: This new design helps reduce the risk of bead unseating due to incorrect fitting and eliminates the risk of pinching the inner tube - because there isn't one!

While this tubeless technology will only be available to pro racing teams in 2004, Michelin notes that product should be ready for public consumption by 2005. Here's the three-part, race-only line-up for 2004:

1. Suitable for all kinds of situations, the Michelin Pro Race Tubeless is designed for use in events such as the major cycling Tours. It affords an ideal balance of high performance characteristics, such as grip, rolling efficiency and durability.

2. The new Michelin Pro Grip Tubeless is designed for racing on wet roads, very cold conditions or muddy and uneven road surfaces. It boasts a rubber compound developed for Formula 1 and motorcycle GP rain tires. In other words, all of Michelin's expertise in racing is concentrated in this tire.

3. The new Michelin Pro Grip Special Paves Tubeless (especially designed for cobblestones) will be available with a section width of 24mm. It introduces an entirely new tread design made up of diamond-shaped points on the central band to break the film of water or mud on cobblestones. The lateral siped tread (previously tested on the rain tires used by Valentino Rossi, 2003 World Motorcycle GP Champion) makes it possible to lean with confidence into the corners in the often-inclement conditions of the classic races of northern Europe.

Those of you who have any experience with UST standard mountain bike tires undoubtably have some questions regarding this technology. I'll be in contact with Michelin's Steve White within the next few days to find out more about this innovative technology and just how user-friendly it might be. Some of the questions that come into my mind include:

* How easy will it be to seat a tubeless road tire? Mountain bike tires can be notoriously finicky to seat onto a UST rim and often require compressed air or a high-volume pump to create the critical airtight seal. I'm curious how regular riders might be able to patch and reinflate tubeless road tires out in the field.
* Will the tires be lighter than conventional tires? Because tubeless tires need to form an airtight seal, manufacturers must coat the inner walls of the tire with additional rubber. With mountain bike tires this can add 100-200 grams per tire, often making a overall tubeless system (including rim) comparable in weight to a conventional tire and tube.
* Will riders be able to run sealant in these tubeless tires? Run a tubeless mountain bike tire without sealant and you're missing out on a huge advantage of tubeless tires - they are able to seal themselves much more effectively than an inner tube (filled with Slime, for example). Although air volume in a road tire is often a third that of a mountain tire, tubeless road tires might be able to seal themselves quickly enough that a rider might not experience noticeable performance loss.
* How different will the new tubeless rims be from current technology? Current Mavic rims (such as Ksyrium) don't have internal spoke holes, which effectively makes them tubeless compatible right now. Will the new rims feature significantly more-aggressive bead locks, or will customers be able to use their current wheels with the new tires?
 
Serial Midget

Serial Midget

Al Bundy
Jun 25, 2002
13,053
1,896
Fort of Rio Grande
The only reason I would go tubeless on a road tire is to be able to run super high PSIs - so far the fastest rolling tire I have tried maxed a 140 but had no grip and wore very fast.
 
O

oldfart

Turbo Monkey
Jul 5, 2001
1,206
24
North Van
Super high psi is not necesarily faster. The road surface has to be really nice and smooth. If its at all bumpy or even rough, high pressure is going to beat you up and the tires will role slower because instead of the tire deforming and soaking up the bump, the entire bike with you on it has to go up and over whatever bump. Try lifting someone while on a bike even a millimetre and that's the energy loss.

From what I've read, the pros using tubeless are impressed with the ride quality. The lack of a tube and the friction you get between the tube and tire casing equals a smooth fast rolling tire. But the weight will have to be the same as tubed or tubular to sell I think. Time will tell.
 
Serial Midget

Serial Midget

Al Bundy
Jun 25, 2002
13,053
1,896
Fort of Rio Grande
oldfart said:
The road surface has to be really nice and smooth.
Click to expand...
I'm my dreams every road is really nice and smooth... however - in the chipseal around hear I do run 110. :mumble:

My fastest times have been with high PSI on buttery smooth goodness.

Weight would be another consideration since I can no longer afford new tires every 400 miles... the wieght of my mtn tubless tire is significantly heavier than the tire/tube combo I upgraded from - however, the ride is sweet. :D
 
Serial Midget

Serial Midget

Al Bundy
Jun 25, 2002
13,053
1,896
Fort of Rio Grande
oldfart said:
Blah, blah, blah...
Click to expand...
I forgot to say that I follow your technical posts all the time because I can always learn something from your response - you are a wealth of bikey smarts.

I run low PSI in chipseal not because of what you mentioned but because of comfort - I didn't know what you mentioned but now that I do I will casually mention it during our next club run so as to impress the locals with my deep seated knowledge. :oink:
 
O

oldfart

Turbo Monkey
Jul 5, 2001
1,206
24
North Van
Well thanks sm. I like to think I have learned from my mistakes. Sometimes I make the same mistake several times before it sinks in. I did in fact run too high a pressure for a 40K provincial tt championship. A good part of the course was on a rough surface. No cracks or potholes but the finish was course granular pebbles. 130 psi when I weighed 133 beat the crap outa me and I was even slower than I usually was. Never again.

I think the Stan's rim strips and sealant have been tried but the high psi blows a regular tire off the rim. I guess the strip decreases the grip that the tire bead has and at high road pressures it can slip off. I'll bet they make a special road strip if the UST road works out though.
 
T

TheMontashu

Pourly Tatteued Jeu
Mar 15, 2004
5,549
0
I'm homeless
there called sew up wheels there lighter and have less rol resistance than regular rims its basicly i tire/tube that glues on the rim. but there expencive and evory time you get a flat you need a new tire
 
Silver

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
TheMontashu said:
there called sew up wheels there lighter and have less rol resistance than regular rims its basicly i tire/tube that glues on the rim. but there expencive and evory time you get a flat you need a new tire
Click to expand...
Yes, we know about tubulars. They still have a tube though, this is different.
 
-B-

-B-

Chimp
Jun 10, 2004
41
0
Northshore of Boston (sin city)
I don't think tubeless will ever take the performance edge away from tubules Velo flex and Hutchinsons/Gomitallia have some of the supplest tires out on the market and easily take high pressures above 140 psi. Remember tires are rated to blow at 3 times the recommended inflation. I have not used a new TUFO( my last pair is almost 8 years old) lately but they used to have the highest rated psi.
 
O

oldfart

Turbo Monkey
Jul 5, 2001
1,206
24
North Van
They blow at about twice the max recommendation not three times. High pressure is a marketing ploy as many people wrongly believe that high pressure is good and higher is better. Maybe. It is true that on a dead smoth surface like a board track that really high psi is fastest, on the road where its bumpy that is not the case. I'm light at 140 and if I run 100 in my front there is almost no casing bulge from body weight. If I ran 140, all I get is a really rough ride. That's what I look at. Not the actual PSI but how much the tire distorts from body weight, plus ride quality.
 
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