I had recently sold my 810s in order to get a set of 820s, pretty much for the new lever which I love on my trail bike. I'm going to try the XT's (with 8" rotors) on the DHR and see how well they work for me.
Saint 820 brakes inconsistent bite point - any fixes or solutions yet?
- Thread starter rscecil007
- Start date
rode 2 years on a early pair of m810s and had very minor issues with them..ie rear brake fading towards end of tracks (in morzine only)
upgraded to the m820s last spring and have not looked back...the bleeding pot is an essential investment and i.m.o shimano should really provide them with every pair even though the retail for around 6 euro.
i think its worth mentioning that in reality brakes require far more work than people would imagine...bleeding,pad replacement and even hose lengths are issues which people have mis-conceptions about
upgraded to the m820s last spring and have not looked back...the bleeding pot is an essential investment and i.m.o shimano should really provide them with every pair even though the retail for around 6 euro.
i think its worth mentioning that in reality brakes require far more work than people would imagine...bleeding,pad replacement and even hose lengths are issues which people have mis-conceptions about
Ok got a ride out today with the XTR levers mated up to the Saint Calipers, same thing. No difference at all.
Bummed, but at least I know I suppose.
Bummed, but at least I know I suppose.
Are you having the problem on both brakes?
I've read through the thread and didn't notice anyone post this.
One more thing to try anyway. Also, you asked earlier if the standard XTR calipers were strong enough for DH. A friend of mine has been running them for a couple seasons now and they've been plenty powerful for his 180lbs. He's got 203mm rotors front and rear...
Yeah, both brakes.
Haven't tried that, but all 4 pistons on all teh brakes look to be firing equally when I pulled the pads and checked them.
Good to know on the XTR's on the DH, thanks for that. I'm a bit heavier but should be ok.
Haven't tried that, but all 4 pistons on all teh brakes look to be firing equally when I pulled the pads and checked them.
Good to know on the XTR's on the DH, thanks for that. I'm a bit heavier but should be ok.
My pair of M820's just arrived today in the shinny box... I wonder WHY 'TF is it that I always read about products I just bought exactly AFTER I bought them. I mean, I creep forums for ages, don't see the topic, I get the crap I payed tons for, bam! the topic with all the crap about it... thnx karma!
P.S. I rode a pair of M810's for ~2 years, about 15-20days/year and didnt have any problems with them, just had to bleed them because the rear one was crapping out (noob braking).
P.S. I rode a pair of M810's for ~2 years, about 15-20days/year and didnt have any problems with them, just had to bleed them because the rear one was crapping out (noob braking).
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Well to be honest Udi, I've got a set of the new Saints on two different bikes, and both do it. But they did arrive together, so maybe from the same batch of faulty ones?
I know bikeradar.com noticed the issue in their review: link
And Dirtrag mentioned it briefly as well (very bottom of brake section): link
I've also talked to someone who was at Whistler during the Saint launch, and said a bunch of the people on hand (reporters, etc) that he spoke to also noticed it.
So if it wasn't for all these instances, I'd def lean towards me having a faulty set. But all this leads me to believe it's something more.
I know bikeradar.com noticed the issue in their review: link
And Dirtrag mentioned it briefly as well (very bottom of brake section): link
I've also talked to someone who was at Whistler during the Saint launch, and said a bunch of the people on hand (reporters, etc) that he spoke to also noticed it.
So if it wasn't for all these instances, I'd def lean towards me having a faulty set. But all this leads me to believe it's something more.
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Just didn't want to tarnish their reputation unfairly in public, but judging by those reviews I think you're absolutely right and Shimano needs to get themselves together. I wouldn't be buying their brakes again until I knew the problems were all fixed. It seems like they've actually gone a step backwards in reliability each iteration (800, 810, 820).
They USED to be an engineering company that made immaculate, faultless products - a rarity in MTB. Now it seems they've taken a page out of everyone else's book and decided that mediocrity is acceptable. Combining excessive lever throw with (judging by your links, regularly) unreliable/varying lever throw is not good.
Bit of a shame, I hope someone from Shimano is reading.
They USED to be an engineering company that made immaculate, faultless products - a rarity in MTB. Now it seems they've taken a page out of everyone else's book and decided that mediocrity is acceptable. Combining excessive lever throw with (judging by your links, regularly) unreliable/varying lever throw is not good.
Bit of a shame, I hope someone from Shimano is reading.
Question, Is there a mod/ ghetto /DIY version of *Charre's saint brake set up for us saint brake users and Aaron gwin/Monkey/CG can copy?
air supply -> pneumatic hose goes into the fluid reservoir thru the cover.
*Pressurized fluid = consistent brake lever feel! = World's Gold.
air supply -> pneumatic hose goes into the fluid reservoir thru the cover.
*Pressurized fluid = consistent brake lever feel! = World's Gold.
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Unfortunately that wouldn't even fix the problem rscecil was having / what was discussed in the reviews he linked, because the reservoir is cut off from the hydraulic system when the lever is activated.
The only thing Charre's setup would fix is the long throw, as it would mimic the overfilling people do to maintain reasonable throw levels and allow you to quickly fix excess throw by adding a little pressure. I presume her caps had an improved sealing setup of some sort.
The only thing Charre's setup would fix is the long throw, as it would mimic the overfilling people do to maintain reasonable throw levels and allow you to quickly fix excess throw by adding a little pressure. I presume her caps had an improved sealing setup of some sort.
I would be willing to bet that the issue lies with the free stroke (throw) adjuster. Every single brake that has this feature, ever since the original Juicy 7 brought it to market, has had similar issues to varying degrees, and it is only since Shimano have also adopted the free stroke adjustment that they have run into such issues - their lower end brakes that do not have this adjustment also seem not to have these issues. Notably, Avid's brakes without the bite point adjusters are also substantially more reliable than their more adjustable models. I believe this may be due to two things:
1. Air getting trapped in the free stroke adjustment mechanism that is extremely hard to bleed out (definitely the case in my experience with M810 levers)
2. Slight inconsistencies/backlash in the free stroke adjustment mechanism that prevent oil transferring freely/consistently between the reservoir and the pressurised system when the lever is at a "soft topout", particularly when the lever is run at minimum throw.
Therefore, this hypothesis would predict that the Zee and SLX brakes (neither of which I have ridden) do not have these issues. Anyone out there got a set of Zee's that can confirm or deny this?
1. Air getting trapped in the free stroke adjustment mechanism that is extremely hard to bleed out (definitely the case in my experience with M810 levers)
2. Slight inconsistencies/backlash in the free stroke adjustment mechanism that prevent oil transferring freely/consistently between the reservoir and the pressurised system when the lever is at a "soft topout", particularly when the lever is run at minimum throw.
Therefore, this hypothesis would predict that the Zee and SLX brakes (neither of which I have ridden) do not have these issues. Anyone out there got a set of Zee's that can confirm or deny this?
So would winding the free stroke all the way out (opposite of how shimano recommends when bleeding) when doing a bleed make a difference here?
Zee levers on m10 saint calipers: don't do it, calipers with old m10 levers did do it but eventually quit doing it
Slx calipers and levers: don't do it
XT calipers and levers: two pair....both work work flawlessly
I've found that the free stroke adjuster had zero noticeable effect on anything, on every Shimano brake I've owned with the feature. Do any of you see any real value in this gizmo??
semi-random: my old 755s paired to 775 levers were the best brake combo evar. (and they're still in use on my neighbor's g/f's DH bike.)
semi-random: my old 755s paired to 775 levers were the best brake combo evar. (and they're still in use on my neighbor's g/f's DH bike.)
Not in my experience with M810s. The best bleed I got out of them meant winding the free stroke screw all the way in AND all the way out at different points during the bleed. That helped get the air out, but the issues (in my case fortunately very minor) with fluid not freely transferring between the live (pressurised) system and the reservoir still occurred.
Sweet, thanks. I take it you're referring to the current generation of XT brakes? It seems to me that while not ALL the levers with the free stroke adjuster suffer (it may only be 1 in 5 or something), the ones that don't have the adjuster definitely do work. If anyone here has solid information to the contrary, please let us know, because to me it seems that the apparent solution is to use Zee/SLX levers (or whole brakesets) to get the same power with none of the BS.
Yeah the new XTs for sure.
I still think it's the damn calipers since I've never had it happen with any incarnation of any model of two pot setup, regardless of the levers being used (including 810 saint levers......they worked fine on some xt calipers, just not on saint ones).
I still think it's the damn calipers since I've never had it happen with any incarnation of any model of two pot setup, regardless of the levers being used (including 810 saint levers......they worked fine on some xt calipers, just not on saint ones).
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Similar things happen on plenty of two pot brakes (especially Elixirs, and I have heard several reports of XTs doing similar stuff), and the old XT 4-pots don't do it, nor do Code 5s (without the throw adjustment - unlike the Codes which did have the throw adjustment, which were horrendous). It's hard to work out exactly where the issue lies (if there is only a single issue causing this - there may be several) without getting enough data from enough brake sets.
what's an elixir or a code?
I thought we were talking about mountain bike brakes, not things that vaguely slow down your beach cruiser.
I thought we were talking about mountain bike brakes, not things that vaguely slow down your beach cruiser.
I think that ^^^ probably has something to do with it. My experience with Avid brakes with the contact adjust has been similar- they seem to get air in the system that's impossible to remove, whereas the cheaper non-contact-adjust units seem to have less problems.
As an additional data point, I've been using the current generation of SLX (M666 I believe, brake of the beast) on my DH bike since July 2012 and they have yet to give me any grief.
I haven't had a set of Shimano hydros since their first XT 4 pots back in 1998-99 or so. And I loved them! Best brake ever. Since then I've used a lot of Avids and a little bit of Hayes.
I now have a set of Saints/820 and XT/785 and have used them for a solid season now. I was hoping the inconsistencies or "brake pump" (where the bite point is suddently super quick, or at a different point all together) would disappear after a good monster bleed. I was also hoping that a good bleed or trick bleed would change the Saints long lever throw.
After having reading this thread...I'm not so sure. Granted, the brake pump seems to only happen on sustained high speed rough stuff. But still...that's exactly where I don't need my brakes feeling funny and inconsistent. As for the Saints...I may just replace them w/ XTs. But first we'll see if bleeding doesn't help.
I now have a set of Saints/820 and XT/785 and have used them for a solid season now. I was hoping the inconsistencies or "brake pump" (where the bite point is suddently super quick, or at a different point all together) would disappear after a good monster bleed. I was also hoping that a good bleed or trick bleed would change the Saints long lever throw.
After having reading this thread...I'm not so sure. Granted, the brake pump seems to only happen on sustained high speed rough stuff. But still...that's exactly where I don't need my brakes feeling funny and inconsistent. As for the Saints...I may just replace them w/ XTs. But first we'll see if bleeding doesn't help.
Just a quick update, had a few rides now on the trailbike with my XTR Trail's that I got under warranty for my Saints.
So far they are rock solid and no issues with the bite point, etc. Lever pull/bite point is consistent and always at the same spot.
So far they are rock solid and no issues with the bite point, etc. Lever pull/bite point is consistent and always at the same spot.
Anyone have any updates on all this? I finally got around to shortening my brake lines and doing a very thorough bleed on my XTs and Saints. Parking lot test feels good...
I just saw the feature on Graves and his week racing enduro up in Punta Ala on Vital. It says he is running XTR levers with Saint calipers. Interesting...
I just saw the feature on Graves and his week racing enduro up in Punta Ala on Vital. It says he is running XTR levers with Saint calipers. Interesting...
a few followup questions: I have 810's, and I have also had a somewhat persistent problem with the rear brake being inconsistent. I'll bleed it, it lasts for a few weeks, then starts getting inconsistent again. Being that I'm lazy, I'll just deal with it, but on my last ride it was pulling all the way back to the bar without doing anything and decided enough was enough.
I'd like to fix this in the most frugal fashion possible while maintaining good braking power and low maint. I don't want to bleed it once a week to keep it in good form, aint nobody got time fo dat.
Two options:
New levers (would that help? sounds like its more of the caliper then the lever, although it may be the bite point adjustment?) Sounds like kidwoo has had luck with the zee levers to 810 calipers, but he pointed out those have been broken in and may not be doing it anymore anyway.
Or new brakes. I'm inclined to go this way - buy once, forget. Cost a little more up front (alot more) but no worries of a headache down the line. If I go this route, I'll probably get XTR/XT/SLX - is there any difference in strength, or is it just weight? I see no reason to spend the extra on XTR or XT if they're the same as the SLX, just lighter. Also, sounds like they'll be plenty strong for me at 170-175, but do I need to go icetech rotors? Its a fair amount of extra scratch - is it worth it? Do they make a big difference?
I'd like to fix this in the most frugal fashion possible while maintaining good braking power and low maint. I don't want to bleed it once a week to keep it in good form, aint nobody got time fo dat.
Two options:
New levers (would that help? sounds like its more of the caliper then the lever, although it may be the bite point adjustment?) Sounds like kidwoo has had luck with the zee levers to 810 calipers, but he pointed out those have been broken in and may not be doing it anymore anyway.
Or new brakes. I'm inclined to go this way - buy once, forget. Cost a little more up front (alot more) but no worries of a headache down the line. If I go this route, I'll probably get XTR/XT/SLX - is there any difference in strength, or is it just weight? I see no reason to spend the extra on XTR or XT if they're the same as the SLX, just lighter. Also, sounds like they'll be plenty strong for me at 170-175, but do I need to go icetech rotors? Its a fair amount of extra scratch - is it worth it? Do they make a big difference?
I'm about the same size as you and have been running SLX with Ice Tech rotors for about the past year in my DH bike. It's seen a lot of use with racing, a week in Whistler, Bootleg canyon, been lent out on a bunch of demo rides, racing for 12 hours at Angel Fire, and they're still working great. I bled them once over the winter.
I think the RT86 Ice Tech rotors do help quite a bit- a friend has SLX with SLX rotors and they are prone to be noisy.
I think the RT86 Ice Tech rotors do help quite a bit- a friend has SLX with SLX rotors and they are prone to be noisy.
I love my XTs. They're really great brakes, and also cheap. They are not just "Good brakes for the money". I'd label them as slightly less powerful than my 810s, but otherwise similar, and the complete set cost me the same as one 810 when I bought them.
The difference in XT/XTR/SLX is that XT has the bite point adjuster, a cast vs. forged lever blade, and is slightly lighter than SLX. XTR ups the bling from there. You miss out on virtually nothing with SLX vs. XT, but be careful where you buy them from; some places have resin rather than metal pads, and other places have no radiator fins where others do. I bought mine from Jenson, and they had metal pads with radiators.
The radiators do get hot, but not scary hot.
The difference in XT/XTR/SLX is that XT has the bite point adjuster, a cast vs. forged lever blade, and is slightly lighter than SLX. XTR ups the bling from there. You miss out on virtually nothing with SLX vs. XT, but be careful where you buy them from; some places have resin rather than metal pads, and other places have no radiator fins where others do. I bought mine from Jenson, and they had metal pads with radiators.
The radiators do get hot, but not scary hot.
I had an XT brake go completely blank a few days ago. Middle of a descent, nothing wierd just some high speed bumpy stuff. Not a big deal because it was the rear and nowhere consequential but if that had been on something steeper and been my front brake, I'd have been throwing a fit.
After talking amongst my peers all of whom own some sort of current shimano brake, it sounds like the XTs have a problem that shows up after a good season (year?) of use. Everyone bought them last year and a lot of them now having problem like this show up right about now. Kinda shoots down my thoughts of the XTs/two pot caliper system being the holy grail. Still have another pair on another bike that have been flawless but I'm going to bleed them for the hell of it. I DID pull some air out of the funky one when I went to bleed it. Air that definitely wasn't there when I put them together last year.
A buddy and I have been talking about it and he's pretty sure the heat generated by these newer brakes has something to do with it. What's it take to make mineral oil off gas? Not necessarily boil but at least break down in a way that gasses start coming off.. I know bleeding these things the oil has been pale after a year whereas previous generations would keep the oil looking like it was new two seasons deep.
Got some brand new saints this year but I haven't ridden them enough to suss out any weirdness. Had the bleed them like 8 times each to get a completely solid fill. We'll see.
After talking amongst my peers all of whom own some sort of current shimano brake, it sounds like the XTs have a problem that shows up after a good season (year?) of use. Everyone bought them last year and a lot of them now having problem like this show up right about now. Kinda shoots down my thoughts of the XTs/two pot caliper system being the holy grail. Still have another pair on another bike that have been flawless but I'm going to bleed them for the hell of it. I DID pull some air out of the funky one when I went to bleed it. Air that definitely wasn't there when I put them together last year.
A buddy and I have been talking about it and he's pretty sure the heat generated by these newer brakes has something to do with it. What's it take to make mineral oil off gas? Not necessarily boil but at least break down in a way that gasses start coming off.. I know bleeding these things the oil has been pale after a year whereas previous generations would keep the oil looking like it was new two seasons deep.
Got some brand new saints this year but I haven't ridden them enough to suss out any weirdness. Had the bleed them like 8 times each to get a completely solid fill. We'll see.
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modulation on my set is comparable to a (working) set of saints.
I guess the newer ones are better but 'problem free' wasn't something I associated with formula for a while.
Shimano brakes are like crack. Worth making it right.
Shimano brakes are like crack. Worth making it right.
I just clicked this thread as I have been assembling a few new bikes for mates and they have all had Zee and SLX brakes and they all have a really horrid lever feel. Also on some of the SLX brakes the pads seem to move around in the calipers more than others, I know a screw in pin fixes it a bit but it still seems odd that they seem to vary so much.
I recently bought some Maguras as I didn't like the feel of the Shimanos but they aren't super powerful so I have been thinking of trying a Zee caliper frankenbrake to see if it makes a difference.
Does anyone know the diameter of the caliper pistons for Saints?
I recently bought some Maguras as I didn't like the feel of the Shimanos but they aren't super powerful so I have been thinking of trying a Zee caliper frankenbrake to see if it makes a difference.
Does anyone know the diameter of the caliper pistons for Saints?
Funny that I find this thread now. I got a new set of m810s last year, and they were great last season. This year however I'm having some issues. Lost the rear the other day, just pulled to the bar right in the middle of a manual that ended up with me on my backside. After a big bleed it feels ok again, but then yesterday I grabbed a handful of brake coming into the tight section on Aline and the front did nothing, resulting in some tree hugging.
The brakes seem to be turning schizophrenic! I'll do a heavy duty bleed on the front too, hopefully that will fix it.
Should I wind the throw adjustment in all the way when bleeding? I've always just left it, perhaps that is the issue
The brakes seem to be turning schizophrenic! I'll do a heavy duty bleed on the front too, hopefully that will fix it.
Should I wind the throw adjustment in all the way when bleeding? I've always just left it, perhaps that is the issue
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I have 810's from 2010, bled 4 or so times, as many pad swaps; when the pads get low on material they get erratic with the throw, but with a good bleed and healthy pads they're pretty consistent.
I hear what you're saying 'woo but IME they've come a long way. http://www.bikeradar.com/mtb/gear/category/components/disc-brake-systems/product/review-formula-ro-12-46051 is a pretty balanced review and points out the improved modulation.
I haven't had to touch my R0's since installing them about a year ago. Based on my experience w/ Ones, down the road I might eventually need to q-tip clean the sides of the pistons & lightly coat w/ oil but that's a quick and easy thing to do once a year so no big deal.
I like the feel of shimano brakes but it just seems like the holy grail shimano brake keeps appearing to be just around the corner.
I haven't had to touch my R0's since installing them about a year ago. Based on my experience w/ Ones, down the road I might eventually need to q-tip clean the sides of the pistons & lightly coat w/ oil but that's a quick and easy thing to do once a year so no big deal.
I like the feel of shimano brakes but it just seems like the holy grail shimano brake keeps appearing to be just around the corner.