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Screw imba.

Electric_City

Electric_City

Torture wrench
Apr 14, 2007
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You don't advocate for a purpose and then turn around and speak against what we pay you to advocate for.

96% of mountain bikers are FOR opening up Wilderness areas.

https://www.singletracks.com/blog/trail-advocacy/imba-testifies-proposed-us-bill-allowing-bikes-wilderness/

The president of imba has the balls to use the term "the big picture". The big picture is what he's missing. When imba loses members who are just as pissed off at them for speaking out against us, they won't have any power. Fuck them.
 
Jozz

Jozz

Joe Dalton
Apr 18, 2002
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I think the bill scope is way larger that just opening wilderness to mountain bike. It would also open wilderness to motorized use as well as commercial usage such as forestry, mining and drilling for oil...

If I understood correctly, that is why IMBA is against the bill in its current form.
 
johnbryanpeters

johnbryanpeters

Hero
Sep 27, 2001
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Making moss sad in New Haven, Vermont
Jozz said:
I think the bill scope is way larger that just opening wilderness to mountain bike. It would also open wilderness to motorized use as well as commercial usage such as forestry, mining and drilling for oil...

If I understood correctly, that is why IMBA is against the bill in its current form.
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If so, they're failing to communicate this effectively to their membership. And, they're doing a rotten job of communicating, negotiating, and coordinating with other organizations that are pursuing similar goals.
 
Jozz

Jozz

Joe Dalton
Apr 18, 2002
5,873
7,403
SADL
johnbryanpeters said:
If so, they're failing to communicate this effectively to their membership. And, they're doing a rotten job of communicating, negotiating, and coordinating with other organizations that are pursuing similar goals.
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Totally. I could not find reference to what I'm saying in the article. Jerome is the one who did the digging for info. Make sense though that such a bill would not only be for the use of mtb in the wilderness.
 
Full Trucker

Full Trucker

Frikkin newb!!!
Feb 26, 2003
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johnbryanpeters said:
If so, they're failing to communicate this effectively to their membership. And, they're doing a rotten job of communicating, negotiating, and coordinating with other organizations that are pursuing similar goals.
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Agreed. The testimony is written in 17 layers of nuance and politispeak garbage... but the IMBA version of the story I am getting through our ED is the way the bill is currently worded, in conjunction with the current political climate, make it (the bill) a dicey proposition at best. I've been an "IMBA apologist" for a long time, always trying to see both sides of an issue, the larger picture, and have an understanding the nuance of all this type of shit... but it's getting more and more difficult when the sound bites seem so black and white.
 
Full Trucker

Full Trucker

Frikkin newb!!!
Feb 26, 2003
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Electric_City said:
I looked it up and came up with this-
https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/1349

I'm not really seeing any loopholes though opening the flood gates for quads/jeeps.
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I think some of the "flood gates for quads/jeeps" paranoia is conjecture, based on which politicians submitted and are supporting the bill. I also think there is some concern that the language of the bill has changed from giving the local field office the option / power to determine / decide whether or not bicycle access is appropriate to a blanket opening of all trails to bikes. Again, nuanced language, but to a lot of folks it's a black and white decision. I don't really have an opinion either way here, I'm not a "F--k IMBA" guy as I think they've done and are doing good for mountain biking, but I also think they're on the wrong side of this issue for a lot of riders.

As odd as it sounds, so far the Wilderness thing doesn't REALLY affect me too much, there's still a veritable shit-ton of high country and backcountry riding in Colorado I have access to. Would opening up Wilderness give me more? Sure, on the CT alone. But we don't have any trails getting closed as part of new Wilderness, at least not nearby. That said, I also think that Idaho Boulder-White Clouds bullshit is just that... bullshit. Freaking travesty right there. And from what I can tell, IMBA was on the right side of that one and got screwed along with the rest of mountain biking.

All that aside, the BS the current administration is pulling with shrinking national monuments a.k.a. public lands has me more concerned than whether or not I can ride a bicycle in Wilderness.



EDIT: previously referenced Montana bullshit, was thinking of Idaho bullshit. Corrected.
 
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Full Trucker

Full Trucker

Frikkin newb!!!
Feb 26, 2003
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It should be noted that Michael Kelley hasn't been on the IMBA staff for quite some time. And in the interview linked above he states: "I’m not representing IMBA in this at all."

This is not a defense of IMBA, it is a defense of factual information.
 
jonKranked

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
85,926
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media blackout
Full Trucker said:
It should be noted that Michael Kelley hasn't been on the IMBA staff for quite some time. And in the interview linked above he states: "I’m not representing IMBA in this at all."

This is not a defense of IMBA, it is a defense of factual information.
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IMBA probably wasn't extreme enough for him. extreme trail neutering.
 
SkaredShtles

SkaredShtles

Michael Bolton
Sep 21, 2003
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In a van.... down by the river
Full Trucker said:
<snip>
As odd as it sounds, so far the Wilderness thing doesn't REALLY affect me too much, there's still a veritable shit-ton of high country and backcountry riding in Colorado I have access to. Would opening up Wilderness give me more? Sure, on the CT alone. But we don't have any trails getting closed as part of new Wilderness, at least not nearby. That said, I also think that Idaho Boulder-White Clouds bullshit is just that... bullshit. Freaking travesty right there. And from what I can tell, IMBA was on the right side of that one and got screwed along with the rest of mountain biking.
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The Boulder-White Clouds incident, along with *current* Wilderness and Wilderness Study Area sheninigans currently going on in Montana should be a WARNING for those of us around here that we really shouldn't take our "shit-ton of high country and backcountry riding" for granted. It has been awhile since new Wilderness has been designated here in CO, but just for reference - since the 1984 administrative ruling that effectively banned bikes, over 1.3 *million* acres has been closed to bikes. And don't be fooled - the Wilderness crowd has their eyes on some prime real estate, including the Cataract Ridge section of the Colorado Trail, the "Gems" stuff up in the Summit/Vail/Eagle areas, etc.

Wilderness_areas_CO.jpg


All that aside, the BS the current administration is pulling with shrinking national monuments a.k.a. public lands has me more concerned than whether or not I can ride a bicycle in Wilderness.
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Wouldn't it be nice, though - if we could have protected those areas as Designated Wilderness instead of Nat'l Monuments? Because once you've designated it as a Wilderness Area (legislation by Congress) it is almost impossible to undo. Unlike Nat'l Monuments, which as we have seen can be created AND undone with the mere stroke of a pen.

I would support almost any Wilderness Area legislation if it didn't mean permanent (all current AND *future*) shutdown of bicycle access.
 
rockofullr

rockofullr

confused
Jun 11, 2009
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East Bay, Cali
I really enjoy backpacking in the wilderness areas in CA and I don't mind not being able to ride them.

Once you're more than 10 miles in you don't see many people and it's great. Just me and the birds. That would change if you could ride bikes. Some places should be hard to get to.
 
SkaredShtles

SkaredShtles

Michael Bolton
Sep 21, 2003
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In a van.... down by the river
rockofullr said:
I really enjoy backpacking in the wilderness areas in CA and I don't mind not being able to ride them.

Once you're more than 10 miles in you don't see many people and it's great. Just me and the birds. That would change if you could ride bikes. Some places should be hard to get to.
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This won't eliminate any of that. Hikers/backpackers have *always* been allowed to go ANYWHERE in Wilderness Areas - trail or no. Hell - if you go off trail almost anywhere here in Colorado it'll just be you and the birds. Bikes are limited to established trails.

Hell - I'm pretty sure equestrians can also go anywhere they want as well in Nat'l Forest, BLM, and Wilderness Areas. Trail or no...

The bottom line is that there is a LARGE constituency that doesn't really WANT to oppose Wilderness protection, but they do because their preferred human-powered use has been unfairly excluded.
 
rockofullr

rockofullr

confused
Jun 11, 2009
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East Bay, Cali
SkaredShtles said:
This won't eliminate any of that. Hikers/backpackers have *always* been allowed to go ANYWHERE in Wilderness Areas - trail or no. Hell - if you go off trail almost anywhere here in Colorado it'll just be you and the birds. Bikes are limited to established trails.
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Yes it will change that. Bikes will allow more people to get further into the wilderness more easily.

SkaredShtles said:
Hell - I'm pretty sure equestrians can also go anywhere they want as well in Nat'l Forest, BLM, and Wilderness Areas. Trail or no...
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Fuck equestrians. If anyone needs to fuck off it's fucking equestrians. Those rich ass motherfuckers don't belong anywhere near a wilderness. Take your big shitting everywhere beasts of burden somewhere else.

SkaredShtles said:
The bottom line is that there is a LARGE constituency that doesn't really WANT to oppose Wilderness protection, but they do because their preferred human-powered use has been unfairly excluded.
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It's not that unfair at all. Other than the horse shit :rimshot:

Lets get rid of the horses and then it's fair. No one gets to go except on their own two feet.
 
Full Trucker

Full Trucker

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Feb 26, 2003
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@SkaredShtles: point(s) acknowledged. But also agree with @rockofullr that allowing bikes into Wilderness *will* change what the Wilderness experience is. Thing is, we can spew all we want about science and trail surface damage and etc. etc. but if there are more people in Wilderness, then the experience will change. I'm not postulating if it's better or worse, but it will be different. My sense is that is what many people who are opposed to allowing bikes in are actually opposed to: it would change their experience in ways that they perceive to be negative.

I think about the CT thru-hiker that stoney and Nick and Adventerous saw last summer... literally plugging her ears and walking with her head down eyes on the ground as we all passed. We were disturbing her *experience* and she wasn't having it. I think one or more of us even tried to be friendly with her and she told someone to leave her alone, or something to that effect. And what's even more laughable to me, is this was on a *motorized* section of the CT. Like, didn't you do your homework, lady? Or did you just read the CTF brochure that talked about all the solitude you'll experience on your amazing Zen-filled thru-hike?

Again, not saying I agree with this, but this is the mentality, and in some ways it's tough to argue against it because it's true—even if it's only true for them. Personally, I see people with that attitude as being selfish pricks. But if I have that opinion, then aren't I being a seflish prick for wanting to take *away* that experience from them to have the experience *I* want?
 
SkaredShtles

SkaredShtles

Michael Bolton
Sep 21, 2003
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Full Trucker said:
<snip>
Again, not saying I agree with this, but this is the mentality, and in some ways it's tough to argue against it because it's true—even if it's only true for them. Personally, I see people with that attitude as being selfish pricks. But if I have that opinion, then aren't I being a seflish prick for wanting to take *away* that experience from them to have the experience *I* want?
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Probably. But the thing is that for 20 years we cyclists *were* able to use Wilderness Areas. For sure, most of us were in diapers or flinging poo in middle school/high school when the (IMO arbitrary) ban hammer came down. And there wasn't anyone to really advocate for us then. Hell - there wasn't really any "us" to speak of back in '84.

IMO it's time to revisit this topic, and I'm glad that it's getting press. I'd bet a LOT of people didn't even know that non-motorized bicycles weren't allowed in Designated Wilderness.
 
rockofullr

rockofullr

confused
Jun 11, 2009
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East Bay, Cali
SkaredShtles said:
Probably. But the thing is that for 20 years we cyclists *were* able to use Wilderness Areas. For sure, most of us were in diapers or flinging poo in middle school/high school when the (IMO arbitrary) ban hammer came down. And there wasn't anyone to really advocate for us then. Hell - there wasn't really any "us" to speak of back in '84.
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No one cared where bikes went when there were only 2 of them and they couldn't actually get anywhere? Surprise!

SkaredShtles said:
IMO it's time to revisit this topic, and I'm glad that it's getting press. I'd bet a LOT of people didn't even know that non-motorized bicycles weren't allowed in Designated Wilderness.
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These are most likely the same people who have never visited a wilderness area and have no intention of doing so cause they can't drive through it in an RV.

I don't want bikes in wilderness areas for the same reason I don't want e-bikes on my trails (interestingly enough both situations have fucking horses where they shouldn't be). The last thing I need is more people getting to the places in the woods that i like. The whole "getting more people out on the trail is good" is a complete fallacy being pushed by either industry types or idiors. When was the last time you were riding or hiking and thought, "shit, I sure wish there were more people here!!".

Is that selfish? Fuck Yeah! But there are plenty of other people who want to enjoy a little time not surrounded by the billions of assholes we call the human race.
 
SkaredShtles

SkaredShtles

Michael Bolton
Sep 21, 2003
65,687
12,731
In a van.... down by the river
rockofullr said:
<snip>
Is that selfish? Fuck Yeah! But there are plenty of other people who want to enjoy a little time not surrounded by the billions of assholes we call the human race.
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I honestly hope that they never close your preferred trails to cycling due to Wilderness designation. Because it DOES happen, and once it does, under the current rules, there's fuck-all you can do about it.

This legislative effort does not carte blanche open Wilderness to bicycles, but it DOES give land managers the discretion to consider bicycle use.
 
rockofullr

rockofullr

confused
Jun 11, 2009
7,342
924
East Bay, Cali
SkaredShtles said:
I honestly hope that they never close your preferred trails to cycling due to Wilderness designation. Because it DOES happen, and once it does, under the current rules, there's fuck-all you can do about it.
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I agree and I hope that doesn't happen to your trails either.

I just don't want any more people hanging out in the places I go to get away from people :weee:
 
Montana rider

Montana rider

Turbo Monkey
Mar 14, 2005
1,756
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The problem in MT (and elsewhere) is not in Wilderness areas per se, but in Wilderness Study Areas which as a result of lawsuits are now defacto managed as wilderness, despite NOT being wilderness and in some cases having 30+ years of biking history

rockofullr said:
only two of them they couldn't actually get anywhere? Surprise!
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People were riding the (WSA) Gallatin Crest for decades but Judge Malloy sided with the antibikers and we lost access to this ride, which is THE BEST high Alpine ride in SW Montana.

I rode it the last summer it was legal

PDF pixels and words here
https://mega.nz/#!9uAiGLCS!NfXtShDsWs0EaMySB3P5N43TZun_MMR7OyJJ6sS-0oU

Backstory
https://www.bikemag.com/lines-in-the-dirt/montana-access/

As I did when they closed WHite Clouds/Antz Basin 2 years back (Idaho)

Ride it while you can and fight like hell to protect access.

/End rant
 
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jstuhlman

jstuhlman

bagpipe wanker
Dec 3, 2009
16,691
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Cackalacka du Nord
maybe a dumb question: what happens in your area of you ride “off limits” trails? does the forest service honestly have enough staff to camp out everywhere and catch/ticket you? most of the trails we ride in the wilson creek area are either “not on the map” or off limits, but there’s really nothing to stop you (there’s maybe one or two rangers for the whole eastern part of the district), and unless you ride the most popular trails on the weekend, there’s little chance of hiker interaction. even if there is, if you’re not a dick and trying to run them over 99% of the time they’re cool. maybe other areas are more crowded?
 
Jm_

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
18,991
9,646
AK
jstuhlman said:
maybe a dumb question: what happens in your area of you ride “off limits” trails? does the forest service honestly have enough staff to camp out everywhere and catch/ticket you?
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Yes, in this case it's state government, but I've seen them out enforcing trails in the winter that are ski-only. Waiting at the bottom with a snowmachine for a fatbiker to pop out. As a government employee, I can tell you that if it becomes a bigger problem, the government will allocate more resources towards it.
 
johnbryanpeters

johnbryanpeters

Hero
Sep 27, 2001
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Making moss sad in New Haven, Vermont
jstuhlman said:
maybe a dumb question: what happens in your area of you ride “off limits” trails? does the forest service honestly have enough staff to camp out everywhere and catch/ticket you? most of the trails we ride in the wilson creek area are either “not on the map” or off limits, but there’s really nothing to stop you (there’s maybe one or two rangers for the whole eastern part of the district), and unless you ride the most popular trails on the weekend, there’s little chance of hiker interaction. even if there is, if you’re not a dick and trying to run them over 99% of the time they’re cool. maybe other areas are more crowded?
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I thought I heard that rangers down your way will actually confiscate bikes. Is that so?
 
jstuhlman

jstuhlman

bagpipe wanker
Dec 3, 2009
16,691
13,039
Cackalacka du Nord
johnbryanpeters said:
I thought I heard that rangers down your way will actually confiscate bikes. Is that so?
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Only case of that happening in Wilsons that I’m aware of is maybe 15 years back when some guys built a north-shore style freeride trail. Other than that, rangers will occasionally turn people around if they see you going into a trail you shouldn’t; there was a rumor that they were parked at the bottom of that same trail a few weeks back giving out tickets...maybe it happened down in Brevard? But again, I haven’t heard of it recently...
 
6thElement

6thElement

Schrodinger's Immigrant
Jul 29, 2008
15,959
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Rode Antz Basin a couple of days before I got married and loved it, wanted to head back to that area for more White Clouds goodness. Bummed me out when it all got closed to bikes :(
 
johnbryanpeters

johnbryanpeters

Hero
Sep 27, 2001
36,089
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Making moss sad in New Haven, Vermont
jstuhlman said:
Only case of that happening in Wilsons that I’m aware of is maybe 15 years back when some guys built a north-shore style freeride trail. Other than that, rangers will occasionally turn people around if they see you going into a trail you shouldn’t; there was a rumor that they were parked at the bottom of that same trail a few weeks back giving out tickets...maybe it happened down in Brevard? But again, I haven’t heard of it recently...
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I heard it in regards Brevard.
 
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