economics 101 - what something costs to make does not affect selling price, only whether to sell it or not. ![Clue :clue: :clue:](/images/smilies/xclue.gif)
![Clue :clue: :clue:](/images/smilies/xclue.gif)
well first tings first is the design, craftsmanship, and the fact that they are relatively small companies would make them expensive. and i dont see how you can make this argument for just single pivots oranges and morewoods are priced quite relatively to other top end dh bikes out there and i think they carry the same level of design as well.erikkellison said:I know shocks make a difference, but that's the case with any bike. I'm asking why people pay so much more for a stiffer rear and +20% travel.
And I wouldn't liken an SGS to a Demo because they are visibly different, with different length bars and differently located pivots. Izumu's and 224's have a design that is very similar to a Bullit; pivot location, swingarm design and shock mounting are all quite similar.
binary visions said:The top quality in any niche isn't even remotely good from a bang-for-the-buck perspective. That goes for cars, audio, computers, skiis... anything. Getting the best is a matter of an exponential increase in price snaring you an incremental increase in performance.
these hammers hit the nail on the head. this issue is ripe with economic issues, including diminishing marginal utility. the bullit is a good design. the cost to move up from a good design to a great design translates to a retail premium above and beyond the $/hour rate of the engineer multiplied by the number of extra hours spent on the the design.dante said:economics 101 - what something costs to make does not affect selling price, only whether to sell it or not.![]()
money can't buy love, but that won't stop people from throwing money at it.OGDMFG said:More love goesinto the finished product,
ditto.dante said:economics 101 - what something costs to make does not affect selling price, only whether to sell it or not.![]()
overpricedMikeT said:Sure, when you buy a Morewood or Orange, you are paying for a premium brand name, and for a premium 'race' bike, but that doesnt mean it is not rediculously overpriced, especially when comparing to how much more work DW put into his designs, and how much the frames he designed go for.
Look, if you guys want to turn this into a nitpicking discussion of whether or not an Orange is worth its specific sticker price, that's fine.MikeT said:Sure, when you buy a Morewood or Orange, you are paying for a premium brand name, and for a premium 'race' bike, but that doesnt mean it is not rediculously overpriced
I wasn't refering to 'fsr vs vpp vs single pivot.. etc', when i say 'suspension design' I mean how much work and testing went into the DESIGN of the system - it's characteristics: there are so many elements to a suspension system (rising/falling rates, squat, wheelpath, etc), and usually in a multi-pivot system, those charactersitcs can be tuned better- again depending on how much work you do(e.g. IH sunday vs. kona stinky)binary visions said:...
Suspension design can affect price, but it does not determine it. A single pivot can be better made, better designed, and have better features than the most exotic suspension design ever conceived - the existance of an exotic suspension design doesn't mean the frame is worth more money...
marketing budget is a qestionable factor. you would think more marketing = higher cost = higher bike price. however, most compaines with higher marketing budgets are selling more units and get economies of scale on the production side. i cannot say for certain how much one offsets the other, but i am willing to bet that the lower production cost per unit balances out the marketing budget.no skid marks said:Brainy visions in your equation again you overlook marketing budget in cost.
that's what good marketing is trying to achieve, gain higher volume through marketing; if marketing is mearly raising your overhead with no net gain like No Skids suggests, then theres no point in the marketing at all or the campaign is an utter failiure (No Skids needs some buisness classes i think :teacher: ).mandown said:i cannot say for certain how much one offsets the other, but i am willing to bet that the lower production cost per unit balances out the marketing budget.
plus i bet they can only take premium breads too....mandown said:is the toast done any faster? no. does it taste any better? doubt it.
zedro said:plus i bet they can only take premium breads too....
Meansnoskidmarks said:'Bascically the bottom line is they'll sell them for the balance cost of how much they can get away with and how many they can produce.Mainly though how much they can get away with.'
then he should just ride his bullit that he thinks is so great and quit crying about how much the other kids are paying for their toyserikkellison said:He is probably just feeling hurt by the high MSRP on most bikes.
doubt it. i find it hard to believe the porsche CEO said "lets take some of our engineers and put them to work on this lucrative toaster project which will push the envelope of technology and help our cars win races and performance awards." at best, the marketing department commissioned a kitchenware company to build it for them. what the hell to auto engineers know about toasting bread anyway? i wouldn't buy a toothbrush from intel, or a pair of shoes from a company that makes sunglasses... ooops.erikkellison said:Oh, and the deal with the Porsche stuff is that a lot of it (I think all of it) has been designed in all or part by Porsche designers. That toaster isn't available without the Porsche label on it because it was designed by them. Same goes for most of their stuff.
you diderikkellison said:First of all, who said anything about engineers?
erikkellison said:Oh, and the deal with the Porsche stuff is that a lot of it (I think all of it) has been designed in all or part by Porsche designers.
good for them. i have no problem with this.erikkellison said:They make money off the endeavor. Why not? They made a name for themselves, and now they are continuing to do so.
yes. porsche is known for making cars. not toasters. not golf clubs. not luggage. not toothbrushes. "porsche designers" is code for "the people we paid to make this stuff for us." the porsche company has final say over the final marketed product. however, the people that build the cars are not the same people who design the tchotchke. if you expect that toaster was conceived in the mind of or even touched by the hands of the the people who design the cars, you are dreaming.erikkellison said:Check out www.porsche-design.com. You really think those are completely outsourced, at best?
i have no problem with this. obviously you don't either. i am happy you got your answer.erikkellison said:People pay the money for that stuff because of the artwork factor. Something I don't see necessary with bikes, but I am definitely a function-over-fashion kind of person.
And noskidmarks wasn't crying, and neither am I. I can't speak for him, but I was curious as to why some people pay so much more for similar bikes. And I think I've gotten my answer: better craftmanship, reliability, lighter weight (functionally comparing), more refined engineering/design, and some level of artwork. But, for me, since the Bullit was good enough craftsmanship, reliable enough and light enough, I would be paying solely for the slight relocation of pivots, the slight change in angles and lengths, and the art factor - I think I'll stay away from boutique until I get a new job and can afford to support the arts.
Short history lesson: Ferdinand Porsche designed the VW (there was only what later became known as "the beetle" then). His design was picked up by the Nazi propaganda machine and touted as the "peoples wagon" ("Volkswagen"). VW also made the Nazi equivalent of the Jeep, later marketed as the VW "Thing". Lots of early VW ads feature swastikas all over the place.erikkellison said:Anyway, didn't Porsche have their engines made by Volkswagen for a number of years?
or when you can get a fancy linkage frame for $600rigidhack said:More to the point - why are you riding a Bullit when Haro makes an nearly identical single pivot frame?
yup. it is called elasticity. demand is not just a function of how many people want a product, but how intensely they want it in terms of willingness to plunk down the benjamins.no skid marks said:But most importantly they'll charge what they can get away with(and the marketing they spent on it will raise this price,so in effect your paying for the marketing(in theory).
Yawn.