Snowshoe update

JeffD · Mar 1, 2007

So...race fee won't cover any lift time? (I.e. race will cost $62 for one day of riding if you don't have a season pass?)

Edit: Also - any word on if the Western territory lift will be open any non-race weekend?

JeffKill · Mar 1, 2007

Are you guys opening on Memorial Day weekend again? Also, do the 1 & 3 day passes give you access to the whole mountain at those prices?

SK6 · Mar 1, 2007

How does one go about the purchase of said item? An in the same line of questioning, what are the methods of payment that shall be accepted?

skatetokil · Mar 1, 2007

not too bad. If I were running the mountain I'd have a back door for the season pass though. Might encourage people who come out and aren't sure before the first time they ride the mountain. Like have a rider card and keep track of visits and let people upgrade to a season pass for a lower price after they hit 5 visits and make the rest of their season free after 10. or just have people keep receipts and deduct past lift tickets from the cost of a season pass if they decide to do it later.

profro · Mar 1, 2007

If I read that correct you are going to charge $37 for a lift pass to practice on Saturday and another $37 to practice on Sunday and $25 to race. So total will be $99. It jumped from $45 to $99?!?!?!?!

Will you pay out more than the top 5?

That makes making all 3 very difficult to justify. Lets hope I am reading that wrong.

turnerdhr · Mar 1, 2007

yea so we pay 25 bucks to race and then 37 for each day we ride/practice added to that.. i hope thats not the case

denjen · Mar 1, 2007

looks like you've covered a bunch of things on my wish list already. The lift runing every weekend for 2 months is awesome. couple other things I would like to add.
1- extend a trail from power line up to STP road. doesnt even have to be a jump trail. Just another option to get to sweet dreams and power line besides the one thats there.
2- Let season pass holders ride the race course on race weekends, even if we arent racing.

JeffD · Mar 1, 2007

profro said:
If I read that correct you are going to charge $37 for a lift pass to practice on Saturday and another $37 to practice on Sunday and $25 to race. So total will be $99. It jumped from $45 to $99?!?!?!?!

Will you pay out more than the top 5?

That makes making all 3 very difficult to justify. Lets hope I am reading that wrong.

Word, that's what I'm saying. Dayum.

Taz · Mar 1, 2007

profro said:
That makes making all 3 very difficult to justify. Lets hope I am reading that wrong.

Agreed! For those of us that have a far distance to travel that makes the race weekends totally not worth the drive. I love to race but I like to ride more.

skatetokil · Mar 1, 2007

yeah, that was always my biggest problem with racing. poor money to saddle time ratio.

skatetokil · Mar 1, 2007

oh, and getting my ass kicked.

Bearmntpicnic · Mar 1, 2007

hey im happy that having a season pass and racing isent a rip off

metalMTB · Mar 1, 2007

are you serious? lifts aren't included in race entry? I hope I'm just misunderstanding...

BKQuill · Mar 1, 2007

To quote a great wise man....

"If there isn't come catch to the posted prices, they'll price themselves out of the race scene."

KevinR86 · Mar 1, 2007

Hey, sounds good! I am stoked on the lift schedule, Definately Can't wait to get up there opening weekend! Also cant wait to ride some new trails, May can't come soon enough!

CLos · Mar 1, 2007

Any new trails?

wannabeabonedoc · Mar 1, 2007

CLos said:
Any new trails?

any new developments on "powerline"?

Hulkamaniac · Mar 1, 2007

In all honesty, I think the $70 for a two-day lift pass plus the additional $25 for a race entry fee is quite steep! I can easily justify $70 for two days of lift serviced riding and a race entry fee included in that, but to add the additional $25 for just the race fee alone is a bit of a slap in the face to the racing enthusiasts that show up and show support.

The $45 entry/lift fee was an amazing deal, it was well noticed and appreciated by the racing community......not to mention got the word out that Snowshoe was serious about the series. It was good while it lasted and I expected an increase in the price, but not that much of an increase.

I agree with the guys wanting more out of their season passes, they have a valid argument....but trying to make up for that loss by charging more of the guys that are only able to make it up just for the races, your going to start pricing yourself out of the market! I'm a huge fan/proponent of Snowshoe and the effort (you know that Trevyn!), but justifying the price increase and convincing others of it's validity isn't easy when it's a huge increase!

For that price, especially if others follow Snowshoe's lead, I may just hang up the dh bike for good and start riding the moto more!!! Dh is expensive enough already, don't alienate the Snowshoe faithful by nickel and diming them at every opportunity.

Hulkamaniac · Mar 1, 2007

ATOMICFIREBALL said:
Moto is more expensive IMO. Plus more dangerous.A freeride bike you can ride anytime really.
Been there dude with the moto is IT idea..!

Honestly, and not to get away from the real subject of this post, but in my experience since getting back into moto....a typical moto weekend outing is cheaper!!! I can load up the KTM (gear, gas, etc), drive to a riding spot, play around riding nearly all weekend until I am physically blown out, pack up and be back home with money still left in my wallet.

It's rare that I can come home after a weekend at Snowshoe or other races at like resorts and still have money left over. It's part the setting/environment...it doesn't help that your paying top dollar for lodging, your isolated in nowhere WV where everything is expensive, and alcohol is usually involved making everything seem acceptable.....and part the fact that dh is super expensive!

drt_jumper · Mar 1, 2007

I was really looking forward to get back to snowshoe a bunch this year, but the higher ups (not trevyn etc.) have priced that right out of the question. Once you figure in 3 things (conservatively) You are talking about over $900.00 for just 3 races.
$100 for lift/entry fee
$100 for lodging (if you dont camp obviously)
$150 min for food and gas (not to mention beer) and that is if you live fairly close (within 5 hours or so)

Sorry but that is just too expensive for me, I dont know about everyone else but almost charging twice as much for a race weekend feels like a slap in the face. I mean I understand raising prices and all but that is excessive. I though NORBA was bad, I am starting too look at their races as a bargain.

chrismac · Mar 1, 2007

The way the mountain is wanting to lay it out is to seperate your race entry from your trail pass. This is how every event in the winter and summer is setup. Most often at winter events, competitors are purchasing a lift ticket at 65.00per day on top of entry also. Last year the trail access and race entry was 45.00. This was a great deal for ya'll and hopefully allowed us to prove our efforts and quality product and events. It is a big jump from last season I aggree, but last year we took a bit of a hit in the hopes of some return down the road. Hopefully not to rough of a road though... We are being pressured a bit by management to run with this, hence why I am looking for some feedback. People don't think much about spending 70.00 for 2 days of lift access... And 25.00 on top of that or a one day pass for a buffed and intensley constructed course, free-bies, happy hours, exclusive course access, and a timed run with a chance at prizes and glory. Consider this value and give me your honest opinion.

I would have to agree that $45 entry fee and trail accses for two days was a good deal, but i would have to say that in effect DOUBLE the price over the course of one year will aprear outrageous to most riders, including me.

Any time there is a price increase, most people tend to try and justiy the value of more cost.. look at what many have already asked about here; trail improvements. Rising accses fees is something all riders will have to deal with, but the races bring many people, many riders, many people enjoying trail improvements, which in turn spawns a great avenue for a mountain to gain a rep and promote the product.. somthing i have a hard time bitting the bullet for in having to now pay double from last year. Last years courses were better, and i think many riders appreciat the effort, but that doesn't seal the deal.

Sure in the winter you have ticket cost higher than the summer, but you also have more destination customers, so without the races/events theres still revenue from the recreational users.. and the families! (in droves compared to mtb). I would be curious what snowshoe would bring from just recreational cycling, versus recreational AND race events over the course of the summer..?

Its my opinion races are a big part of why mtb'n has established a foothold at mountains like snowshoe, don't penalize racers with double the price with little improvements over the year before, (i guess yet to be seen, but how long have people been talking about additions routes to and from Powerline?) at least not yet. I'm fine with an increase, but shazzam, twice the green at about a hundy! Maybe cut the racers a discounted pass, like $45-$50 for two days, plus the $25 for the race and now your at $70-$75 which is on par with other mountains. Then maybe once the trail improvements are bringing more riders and their vacationing families (which is difficult; needs more interest and beginner terrain) you can charge the racers what it cost to host the event.

For the time being, when there is overlapping events, that extra $25-$30 will sway my decision! (as frugle as it seems) Don't forget too, sport racers (and most the open class) aren't racing for much more than competative sprit or some free tires. With more money, open riders are gonna be looking for deeper payouts.

most likely i'll be there to wallow in the mud and sing in the rain.. my honest opinion.

Jeremy R · Mar 2, 2007

That setup is a good deal for guys that are more local.
They can just buy a season pass, ride all year and race for cheap.
But it totally screws somebody like me who can only afford to come up for the races.
Last year, it was taking me and Herndon 6 1/2 hours to get to Snowshoe. So of course, I can only come up for the races, but I planned to go to all three of them. I really like what you guys have done there and support it 100%.
But IMO, under this pricing structure, you are going to eliminate the racers that have to travel from long distances. I know last year, you had guys coming up from Florida all the way up to high in the Northeast.
For someone who is only going to come up for 3 weekends, you get hammered no matter how you add it up.
It would be nice if you guys had a set price for a race weekend.
I realize it needs to be higher than the $45 last year, but not over double higher.
If the racers do not show, not only does the mountain lose the race fee money, but they also lose the lodging and all the $10 cheeseburger money.

profro · Mar 2, 2007

Sorry, but $70 for a 2 day pass and an additional $25 to race is just way too steep.

There is no way I can drive 6+ hours, 3 times a year for a race fee in effect of close to $300.

If this price stays, you lost me as a racer, a food eater, and my wife as a shopper.

spoke80 · Mar 2, 2007

profro said:
Sorry, but $70 for a 2 day pass and an additional $25 to race is just way too steep.

There is no way I can drive 6+ hours, 3 times a year for a race fee in effect of close to $300.

If this price stays, you lost me as a racer, a food eater, and my wife as a shopper.

Ditto, except for the wife but you can substitute drinker instead.

lthumbsdown:

Dhracer3 · Mar 2, 2007

Even for pros it will be difficult to attend all 3 races?... I cant afford $100 per race! plus traveling out to the venue and then accomodation.

Castle · Mar 2, 2007

Ouch! Trevyn, those guys up there are making your job harder and harder; I feel for ya man!

You guys are gonna have to kick some serious ass like never before to make people think it's worth the extra coin. I could hardly afford the trips before, I think Hulk is right, they may be pricing themselves out of the market.

Are you hiring more trail workers, is the extra money spent on passes going to be fed back into the trails, will there be a vast amount of new trails/additions? I mean it's gonna take some serious selling/marketing to compensate for this rise in price to get people on the hill.

on a side note: Are they opening back up to trading trail work for season passes?

spoke80 · Mar 2, 2007

Castle said:
Ouch!
Are you hiring more trail workers, is the extra money spent on passes going to be fed back into the trails, will there be a vast amount of new trails/additions? I mean it's gonna take some serious selling/marketing to compensate for this rise in price to get people on the hill.

on a side note: Are they opening back up to trading trail work for season passes?

Great questions!

denjen · Mar 2, 2007

Also why is a two day pass needed? I can see it for practice on Saturday, but on race day you only get a couple of runs including your race run in. Not worth two full day pass's

VT Mtbkr · Mar 2, 2007

It seems there are a lot of people who are willing to travel the longer distances for the races 3 races. Have you thought about offering a 3 race pass for those planning on racing the full series? Maybe offer it at a discounted $60-70 per race if you are willing to commit to pay for all three races at once?

bizutch · Mar 2, 2007

I think the tough thing for me to swallow about the increased price is there isn't a justification for as compared to the competitors in your surrounding market. Trevyn talked to me over the winter about how they are having to re-vamp their approach to trails there because the old system is not sustainable long term and cost them too much to maintain versus the return on the investment.

In fairness to Trevyn, he's told me they are investing heavily into trailbuilding MACHINERY for the coming year to bettter develop the trail system. Snowshoe also paid for Brad Stone to attend Whistler Gravity Camp www.whistlergravitycamp.com to get the trail system better structured.

So, the resort is spending alot of money and investing big bank on making their trail system better. So that, in a sense, justifies price increases to compensate.

But I think the thing that is going to make it a tough pill to swallow for the riders and racers is that the mountain is passing money burned in the growing process and from mistakes in their learning curve straight to the riders.

It would be easier to understand if this happened next year, AFTER riders and racers see and ride trails from the dollars Snowshoe is spending to build a better mousetrap. For now, it's sort of like saying...we've been trying to get this thing down pat and lost a lot of money because we made mistakes along the way...so you're gonna pay alot more for our mistakes in the past.

Personally...I'd skip the first race and put the money in my gas tank and another 6 hour drive to go pump out runs on Dominion to Alpine and hear back from riders as to whether or not the trails were worth the extra pop now.

denjen · Mar 2, 2007

Just wondering what is the entry fee at most other races?

Taz · Mar 2, 2007

spoke80 said:
Ditto, except for the wife but you can substitute drinker instead.lthumbsdown:

12 hour drive to Snowshoe and $100 race fee. As much as I love Snowshoe, as I do think it is one of the best venues on the east coast to have races - the villlage rocks, I think I'll just buy a NORBA license and race Snowshoe and Massanutten. Spend the money left over on Windrock trips

Using winter season as a justification for increased cost of summer season just doesn't isn't fair to the mountain biking comunity. Skiing is an industry that has a TREMENDOUSLY higher volume of money per year that flows through it. Skiing has a gross product in one quarter that equals the yearly of mountain biking as a whole - not to mention the larger public involvement.

psychobiker · Mar 2, 2007

attention snowshoe.....you have a great facility, great trail, and great employee's....this is who will be hurtin at the end of the season with prices like that.

jrfor0 · Mar 2, 2007

denjen said:
Just wondering what is the entry fee at most other races?

the entry for most other races is $50-$80.

i am curious, in years past the lift ticket was broken down, the stunt side, the western territory and both sides at a slight discount. are you going to be doing this again for 2007?

if so then people don't really need to buy the full ticket, just the western territory side of the mountain and this should make the race weekend cheaper by at least $20 a weekend.

grom-dom · Mar 2, 2007

damn that price got jacked. i was gonna race, but im 13, i pay fro all the race fees and stuff, i cant afford to lay down 300 minimum and drive 6+ hours for a day and a half of racing/riding and im gonna hafta rent a dh rig till i can get my own, as much as i like the place, i just can't afford that! looks like diablo is a go though, cheaper and some better stuff. i think i'll go butch's route and maybe skip the first race and see how people like it. i understand the price jack to cover the trail building stuff but we're not all brian lopes and the like, we dont have near enough money to make the trek out there and lay down money out the ass to hit the trails and ride for a couple days. i think the lift ticket would at least be included in the entry fee :-/

profro · Mar 2, 2007

denjen said:
Just wondering what is the entry fee at most other races?

For semi-pros the NMBS are in the $80 range and you can see how well those races are going.

Most others are just below or around $50.

The most expensive race I've ever done was a Bootleg race that was $75, but they payed pretty deep and I won back my entry fee and then some.

$100 would have to be the most expensive race I've ever heard of.

BTW, drop the t-shirts and goody bag and pass those savings along to the racers.

Trails have been built for a long time with just shovels and rakes. No need to drop the price tag of machinery on racers. I don't doubt that new machinery and Brad's Whistler knowledge will make great things happen. But its not worth the price increase to me, who lives 6+ hrs away. I can ride my own trails for a lot cheaper.

jrfor0 · Mar 2, 2007

VT Mtbkr said:
It seems there are a lot of people who are willing to travel the longer distances for the races 3 races. Have you thought about offering a 3 race pass for those planning on racing the full series? Maybe offer it at a discounted $60-70 per race if you are willing to commit to pay for all three races at once?

that is a very good idea!

Snowshoe update

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