[Toshi]

it turns out that all this ill-formed blather in my head about wanting a neighborhood where everything was within walking distance and alternative transport options such as bike, bus, or train were feasible has an official document:

THE AHWAHNEE PRINCIPLES: Toward More Livable Communities.

it really sums up what i've been yearning for and what other metrics (such as walkability) measure only poorly. here are its goals:

Rather than designing towns so that we could walk to work or to the store, we have separated uses into homogeneous, single-use enclaves, spreading out these uses on ever-increasing acres of land. Housing of similar types for similar income levels were grouped together. Retail stores were clustered into huge structures called malls, surrounded by endless acres of parking slots. Businesses imitated the mall - creating "business parks", usually without a park in sight, and with people working in clusters of similar buildings and parking spaces. At the same time, public squares, the corner store, main street, and all the places where people could meet and a sense of community could happen were replaced by the abyss of asphalt.

Even people are segregated by age and income level. And those who cannot drive or who cannot afford a car face an enormous disadvantage. In the words of Pasadena's Mayor Rick Cole, "there's a loss of place, a loss of hope, and it's killing our souls."

The effects of single- use, sprawling development patterns are becoming increasing clear. And, with that has evolved a realization that there is a better way. Towns of the type built earlier in this century - those compact, walkable communities where you could walk to the store and kids could walk to school, where there was a variety of housing types from housing over stores to single-family units with front porches facing tree-lined, narrow streets -these towns provided a life style that now seems far preferable to today's neighborhoods. Thus we have seen an increasing interest in a number of concepts that would bring us back to a more traditional style of development and a style of planning that would be more in tune with nature including "neotraditional planning", "sustainable development", "transit-oriented design", the "new urbanism", and the concept of "livable" communities.

here are their principles: http://www.lgc.org/ahwahnee/principles.html

i really hope that i can settle down once residency and fellowship is over in such a community. from this perspective long island is hell, as it exemplifies car-based development in all of its strip mall + residential neighborhood "glory".

oh yeah, this thread had a point, or at least half of one: where can i find such communities?

i know many neighborhoods within portland are laid out in a "sustainable" manner but i also know that many cities that people vigorously recommend are also far from this particular ideal. (perversely NYC itself meets the ideal apart from the ugliness and general despair, although i guess that wouldn't be an issue if living in a nice, walkable neighborhood...)

 

[Serial Midget]

Butte - Montana, everything is within walking distance.

Pocatello, Idaho - I'm being serious with this one.

 

[jdcamb]

Ever been to Rockville Centre NY. A lot of what you describe can be found in the small cities of Eastern PA also.

 

[jonKranked]

Sounds like Socialism

 

[TN]

everything in my neighborhood is within walking distance. if i didn't work where i did i would only drive when I wanted to go out of town.

 

[jimmydean]

Portland, OR. But you knew that.

 

[ire]

Some of the older sections of Salem, OR are that way. Unfortunately the new housing developments are nothing more than urban sprawl, miles from the nearest store.

 

[Toshi]

Butte - Montana, everything is within walking distance.

Pocatello, Idaho - I'm being serious with this one.

interesting. i'll have to check out butte.

on pocatello i have to respectfully disagree...

 

[jimmydean]

Some of the older sections of Salem, OR are that way. Unfortunately the new housing developments are nothing more than urban sprawl, miles from the nearest store.

My house was middle of the road. Less than a mile away I had Subway, 7-11, and an Asian market. A little further I had a couple restaurants, and just past those was Costco. Not that you would WANT to walk to Costco because you couldn't carry anything home. But I was about 150 yards from the MAX and a half mile from the bus. I was also 3 miles from the office.

Oddly enough, I think I drove more living there than I did in Forest Grove. I could walk all over town in Forest Grove including Safeway (didn't shop there for large trips). I was only a block from the bus and rode that to work for 3 years. Downtown FG has free wifi, too and cheap as hell public utilities.

Nothing to the level of support that living in downtown Portland would cover, though.

 

[mandown]

what are you talking about. the internet makes everything walking distance. click on the grocery store and walk to my door for the delivery truck. click on the everyone's-LBS link and walk to my door for brown santa. facebook my friends so nobody needs to drive. telecommute and walk from my bed to my desk. don't need a car, or a bus, or shoes. just slippers and a robe. i'm like The Dude, without the bowling ball (I just had BestBuy.com UPS over a Wii with the bowling game), I even ordered a rug that pulls the room together that I found on craigslist and negotiated a drop-off with the seller; just gonna walk to my door now to get it.

 

[MMike]

interesting. i'll have to check out butte.
..

I'll BET you will.......

Hee hee hee hee hee hee

 

[skinny mike]

oh yeah, this thread had a point, or at least half of one: where can i find such communities?

whittier, alaska. everyone lives in the same big building and in that building is the school, grocery store, and anything else people might need in the winter.

 

[Leethal]

Portland... seemed nice if you can afford a $450,000 house

 

[Westy]

A lot of "sustainable" communities only seem that way. There are a few small area's like that around here but the reality is it only seems sustainable from the point of view of the rich people that live there. All the lower income people are forced to live far away and drive in.

Realistically the only complete towns like that are places that saw all their population growth before WWII. Small dense housing, with farms in and around town. Of course towns that saw all their growth that long ago aren't all that desirable.

 

[mandown]

I'm aware of a community in the SoCal area that was developed, where there all sorts of nice food and retail locations and very nice housing, but there was no cheap housing (even rental). Once the construction was finished and people started moving in the houses, they realized that there was nobody that could afford to live near enough willing to work the lower-paying jobs for clerk and cashier and cook positions. Imagine having a great upper-middle class neighborhood with nice stores and eateries, but no staff because everybody that lives in a 20 mile radius is a white-collar SINK or DINK. A developer I know moved in and found a place to build affordable housing and made out quite well, since his development was the only game in town.

 

[jimmydean]

I'm aware of a community in the SoCal area that was developed, where there all sorts of nice food and retail locations and very nice housing, but there was no cheap housing (even rental). Once the construction was finished and people started moving in the houses, they realized that there was nobody that could afford to live near enough willing to work the lower-paying jobs for clerk and cashier and cook positions. Imagine having a great upper-middle class neighborhood with nice stores and eateries, but no staff because everybody that lives in a 20 mile radius is a white-collar SINK or DINK. A developer I know moved in and found a place to build affordable housing and made out quite well, since his development was the only game in town.

This is why Intel had to subsidize housing for teachers in Silicon Valley. No teachers made enough money to teach there and Intel couldn't recruit employees because the schools sucked.

 

[CBJ]

I can get everything within walking distance where I live in Brooklyn or I can be a real sinner and take the subway to other part of town.

 

[mandown]

This is why Intel had to subsidize housing for teachers in Silicon Valley. No teachers made enough money to teach there and Intel couldn't recruit employees because the schools sucked.

don't make things too perfect, you'd be shocked at what the dirt will clean.

 

[jimmydean]

don't make things too perfect, you'd be shocked at what the dirt will clean.

Oh I'm sure there is much more to it, I just found it funny (not haha funny). Same goes for the huge uproar a number of years ago about the mayor of Santa Cruz who couldn't afford a house in Santa Cruz.

I know a number of times I had looked at jobs in the valley, none of them paid me nearly enough to afford living close and I didn't want to commute.

 

[ridiculous]

Actually where I live in Baltimore isn't bad as far as sustainability. My apartment complex uses a central boiler for heat and A/C. I bike to work, (I could walk), grocery store across from me, Home Depot across from work, farmers market meets 2 blocks down and I'm always close to the crime scene. Its those damn 4-5 hr trips to the mtn to ride that I murder the environment with.

 

[TheTruth]

Move to NJ!

 

[mandown]

i want a community piped with vacuum tubes for transporting small packages, like they have at the bank and home depot. fill a cylinder with goodness and pop it in the tube; VIOLA` it is at your house. the lbs could tube me a tube for my flat.

brace yourself future, here i come

 

[Bushwhacker]

Your dream city lies across the pond...


http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2009/10/copen-bloggin-bike-jam


None of any of the places mentioned are really "sustainable" as in not totally self reliant and relying on outside resources/industries/services to function. Going green maybe...but these guys are looking for completey sustainable.

http://www.thevenusproject.com/

 

[Serial Midget]

on pocatello i have to respectfully disagree...

Why???

 

[SkaredShtles]

This thread is a Hippy Wet Dream.

 

[Serial Midget]

Realistically the only complete towns like that are places that saw all their population growth before WWII. Small dense housing, with farms in and around town. Of course towns that saw all their growth that long ago aren't all that desirable.

This describes Butte to a T, just substitute "farms in and around town" with giant copper strip mine larger than the whole town. We do have a Northern Exposure style program designed to attract impressionable young medical professionals...

 

[Ciaran]

This thread is a Hippy Wet Dream.

Indeed.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

A lot of "sustainable" communities only seem that way. There are a few small area's like that around here but the reality is it only seems sustainable from the point of view of the rich people that live there. All the lower income people are forced to live far away and drive in.

Realistically the only complete towns like that are places that saw all their population growth before WWII. Small dense housing, with farms in and around town. Of course towns that saw all their growth that long ago aren't all that desirable.

spot on.
its sustainable only as long as there is an outside world to sustain it.
such ideal communities are not feasible, unless they exist in the westy version, or there is a centralized economic power to correct the defficiencies with subsidies (for teachers, clerks, police/security, nannies, carpenters, etc)...

the kind of neighborhoods toshi refers to, exist in abundance in poor countries, in the form of wealthy gated ghettos, like in Rio, brazil. its pretty much the way of life of entire communities usually afforded for its employees by mining companies, major corporations, embassies, owners associations, etc, etc... without them, i dont see how they could realistically survive.

 

[Toshi]

Why???

i lived there for 3 months. it's spread out.

 

[Toshi]

Your dream city lies across the pond...

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2009/10/copen-bloggin-bike-jam

i was imagining something more like this:

NY Times: In German Suburb, Life Goes On Without Cars

VAUBAN, Germany — Residents of this upscale community are suburban pioneers, going where few soccer moms or commuting executives have ever gone before: they have given up their cars.

Street parking, driveways and home garages are generally forbidden in this experimental new district on the outskirts of Freiburg, near the French and Swiss borders. Vauban’s streets are completely “car-free” — except the main thoroughfare, where the tram to downtown Freiburg runs, and a few streets on one edge of the community. Car ownership is allowed, but there are only two places to park — large garages at the edge of the development, where a car-owner buys a space, for $40,000, along with a home.

As a result, 70 percent of Vauban’s families do not own cars, and 57 percent sold a car to move here. “When I had a car I was always tense. I’m much happier this way,” said Heidrun Walter, a media trainer and mother of two, as she walked verdant streets where the swish of bicycles and the chatter of wandering children drown out the occasional distant motor.

Vauban, completed in 2006, is an example of a growing trend in Europe, the United States and elsewhere to separate suburban life from auto use, as a component of a movement called “smart planning.”

here's the associated discussion on nytimes.com for the above article on Vauban: http://roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/05/12/carless-in-america/ . from the discussion:

There are only six American downtown districts that are dense enough to support mass transit, which you need if you’re going to be carless: New York City (Midtown and Downtown), Chicago, Philadelphia, Boston and San Francisco. That’s it.

With the expectation that a car would not be there to be driven, Lakewood’s neighborhood retail — a dry cleaner, a hair salon, a dentist, a drug store, a liquor store — was located no further away than a quarter-mile from any home, even those homes deep within a tract. And an elementary school was still no more than about half a mile away.

(which Lakewood?! certainly not Lakewood, WA where i spent some of my childhood)

Metropolitan Washington, D.C., has more walkable urban places per capita than anywhere else in the country. Of the 30 emerging or existing walkable urban places in the region, 70 percent are in the suburbs: like downtown Bethesda, Md., Reston, Va., and the string of places along Wilson Boulevard in Arlington, Va., including Ballston, Court House and Clarendon.

The monster in Virginia that is known as Tyson’s Corner, 44 million square feet of drivable-only commercial development which is universally hated, is seeing four new Metrorail stations built and has community support to increase its size to 100 million square feet … but it will evolve into a walkable urban set of places.

Anyone who has visited Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Berlin, Madrid, Lisbon or Siena already knows what this feels like. Boston’s Beacon Hill and Back Bay neighborhoods could readily be made carfree. Washington Mews in Manhattan is a tiny slice of carfree life right in our midst.

Streets are quite narrow, buildings are about four stories tall, and, in the best practice, there is a large green courtyard in the heart of each block.

We don’t yet have car-free cities in North America. This is mainly a failure of imagination. Americans are so used to driving everywhere that the mere thought of being without a car is terrifying. But life without urban cars is not only possible, it is delightful.

 

[Serial Midget]

i lived there for 3 months. it's spread out.

I have never lived there, so you would know best. I felt the old town area was very close to reasonably priced housing, cultural (for Idaho) entertainment, restaurants and chi-chi shopping. The bus routes seem to cover everything fairly efficiently. Everything is a million miles away so there's no reason to leave, I guess the hospital is too far away from the old part of town.

 

[Toshi]

Portland, OR. But you knew that.

Portland... seemed nice if you can afford a $450,000 house

i know, i know all too well. just trying to expand my horizons a bit in case ending up in portland isn't in the cards due to job availability and such.

 

[TN]

I believe you can find what you are looking for in a lot of cities in the US if you are willing to live in the city.

We live in an old polish neighborhood that has 3 full service grocery stores within a 2 mile radius plus a whole foods, numerous ethnic neighborhood markets (italian, polish, puerto rican, asian), a medical center, tons of restaurants & taverns, retail, pharmacies, schools, libraries, everything you need.

It seems to me that designing these sustainable communities is just the opposite. why build a new neighborhood when there are lots of existing urban pockets that can offer the same thing? I think it is because the people that can afford these developments are afraid to live in the cities with poor people & want to live next to facsimiles of themselves.

 

[jimmydean]

i know, i know all too well. just trying to expand my horizons a bit in case ending up in portland isn't in the cards due to job availability and such.

I don't know about the $450k house, though. If you want truly sustainable, you just get one of the concrete condos downtown for $150k and be done. If you feel you HAVE to be in a house, there are great areas like TN said in and around Portland. Many places, including North Portland have come up nicely around the MAX lines.

Just stay out of Gresham, and you'll be fine.

 

[Toshi]

I think it is because the people that can afford these developments are afraid to live in the cities with poor people & want to live next to facsimiles of themselves.

i think there is some element of truth to this.

 

[Toshi]

I don't know about the $450k house, though. If you want truly sustainable, you just get one of the concrete condos downtown for $150k and be done. If you feel you HAVE to be in a house, there are great areas like TN said in and around Portland. Many places, including North Portland have come up nicely around the MAX lines.

Just stay out of Gresham, and you'll be fine.

ah, but that's the thing. i want to have my cake and eat it, too. i want a garage (for my electric car, of course!) heh, as well as enough room so that i can practice my instruments at any time of day.

 

[Bldr_DH]

We've got a place like that about 30 minutes from where I live. Creepy place...

http://www.prospectnewtown.com/

 

[jimmydean]

ah, but that's the thing. i want to have my cake and eat it, too. i want a garage (for my electric car, of course!) heh, as well as enough room so that i can practice my instruments at any time of day.

A friend of mine lived in a building that had 18" concrete walls on all sides. You could CRANK tunes and minus having your slider door open, you didn't bother anyone.

I think for a cake scenario, my house in Forest Grove was close. If I was owning, I would have used the back portion of the yard for solar since it got full sun and I didn't use the last 40' or so anyway (lot was 60x220 or something).

The only problem was some of the bus 57 patrons were "interesting". Didn't bother me, but my wife refused to ride. I found it entertaining.

 

[gonefirefightin]

central oregon and lake tahoe

 

[Fool]

Brooklyn.