[Slugman]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5751284/

Military records counter a Kerry critic
Fellow skipper's citation refers to enemy fireBy Michael Dobbs

Updated: 11:12 p.m. ET Aug. 18, 2004

WASHINGTON - Newly obtained military records of one of Sen. John F. Kerry's most vocal critics, who has accused the Democratic presidential candidate of lying about his wartime record to win medals, contradict his own version of events.

In newspaper interviews and a best-selling book, Larry Thurlow, who commanded a Navy Swift boat alongside Kerry in Vietnam, has strongly disputed Kerry's claim that the Massachusetts Democrat's boat came under fire during a mission in Viet Cong-controlled territory on March 13, 1969. Kerry won a Bronze Star for his actions that day.

But Thurlow's military records, portions of which were released yesterday to The Washington Post under the Freedom of Information Act, contain several references to "enemy small arms and automatic weapons fire" directed at "all units" of the five-boat flotilla. Thurlow won his own Bronze Star that day, and the citation praises him for providing assistance to a damaged Swift boat "despite enemy bullets flying about him."

As one of five Swift boat skippers who led the raid up the Bay Hap River, Thurlow was a direct participant in the disputed events. He is also a leading member of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, a public advocacy group of Vietnam veterans dismayed by Kerry's subsequent antiwar activities, which has aired a controversial television advertisement attacking his war record.

In interviews and written reminiscences, Kerry has described how his 50-foot patrol boat came under fire from the banks of the Bay Hap after a mine explosion disabled another U.S. patrol boat. According to Kerry and members of his crew, the firing continued as an injured Kerry leaned over the bow of his ship to rescue a Special Forces officer who was blown overboard in a second explosion.

'Constant enemy small arms fire'
Last month, Thurlow swore in an affidavit that Kerry was "not under fire" when he fished Lt. James Rassmann out of the water. He described Kerry's Bronze Star citation, which says that all units involved came under "small arms and automatic weapons fire," as "totally fabricated."

"I never heard a shot," Thurlow said in his affidavit, which was released by Swift Boats Veterans for Truth. The group claims the backing of more than 250 Vietnam veterans, including a majority of Kerry's fellow boat commanders.

A document recommending Thurlow for the Bronze Star noted that all his actions "took place under constant enemy small arms fire which LTJG THURLOW completely ignored in providing immediate assistance" to the disabled boat and its crew. The citation states that all other units in the flotilla also came under fire.

…This is an interesting item...

Thurlow, an oil industry worker and former teacher in Kansas, said he was angry with Kerry for his antiwar activities on his return to the United States and particularly Kerry's claim before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee that U.S. troops in Vietnam had committed war crimes "with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command."

 

[N8 v2.0]

I wonder why this dude's records were released but not Kerry's...???




I have read and written citations and recommendations whilst in the USN and for USAF personnel. It they are at the least horribly exagerated and at the worst pure fiction.

Like they say... "...medals are like hemorrhoids, sooner or later every asshole gets one."*





*The Last Remake of Beau Gest (1977)

 

[Slugman]

I wonder why this dude's records were released but not Bush's...???

:nuts:

Good question... Neither candidate has signed the appropriate documents to release COMPLETE military records to the public.

So the debate is about how many of the 5 medals earned while in active duty John Kerry was eligible for, and where was W when he should have been hiding behind his national guard duty...

 

[Slugman]

And the swiftboats take on more water....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5771731/

Report exposes Bush connections to Swift Boat vets
Some who now rip Kerry previously praised him

Aug. 20, 2004A newspaper investigation into the veterans' group behind the controversial TV ads about Sen. John Kerry's Vietnam war record has found a "web of connections" to the president and his family and many inconsistencies in the veterans' public statements on the matter.

How the group known as the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth "came into existence is a story of how veterans with longstanding anger about Mr. Kerry's antiwar statements in the early 1970's allied themselves with Texas Republicans," The New York Times reported in Friday's editions.

The group's ads accuse the Democratic presidential nominee of exaggerating his war record to win war medals and say he is unfit to be president.

"A series of interviews and a review of documents show a web of connections to the Bush family, high-profile Texas political figures and President Bush's chief political aide, Karl Rove," the Times reported. "Several of those now declaring Mr. Kerry 'unfit' had lavished praise on him, some as recently as last year.

The story appeared in the Times a day after Kerry fought back against the veterans' allegations, accusing Bush of using a Republican front group “to do his dirty work” and challenging Bush to debate their wartime service records.


:nuts:

 

[N8 v2.0]

BREAKING NEWS!

Devastating Report: Bush supporters linked to Bush donations.

Film at 11........

 

[Slugman]

BREAKING NEWS!

Devastating Report: Bush supporters linked to Bush donations.

Film at 11........

You're right, I'm sure the NYT based a story that could have legal ramification against the president of the USA and his cabinate mebers on campaign contributions.

 

[N8 v2.0]

You're right, I'm sure the NYT based a story that could have legal ramification against the president of the USA and his cabinate mebers on campaign contributions.

HAHA! You'er funny for citing the NYTimes as a legit news organization...
They are worse than Newsmax.com!

 

[Slugman]

HAHA! You'er funny for citing the NYTimes as a legit news organization...
They are worse than Newsmax.com!

But still better than FOX

 

[N8 v2.0]

Fox=NBC=ABC=CNN=MSNBC=all the same

I've watched Fox news a couple of times but it doesn't do it for me.

I tend to watch ABC news in the evening then tune over to HGTV, The Food Network, the History Channel, The Discovery or Bravo if that Hair Salon reality show is on...

 

[Slugman]

Even MORE evidence that the "swiftboats" are a pack of liars...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5831541/site/newsweek/

By John Barry
Newsweek

Updated: 2:30 p.m. ET Aug. 26, 2004Aug. 26 - A previously undisclosed Navy record obtained by NEWSWEEK supports John Kerry’s claim that he was under fire when he rescued a U.S. Green Beret who had pitched overboard from Kerry’s 50-foot Swift Boat during a short but intense engagement in Vietnam's Mekong Delta in March 1969.
…

The third Bronze Star was won by one of Thurlow’s own launch crew, Robert Eugene Lambert, who was radarman and the senior noncom on Thurlow’s boat. NEWSWEEK obtained a copy of the citation for Lambert’s Bronze Star from the National Personnel Records Center in St Louis under a Freedom of Information Act filing. This citation, like the others, says that following a mine explosion that wrecked one of the Swift Boats, the flotilla of five boats “came under small-arms and automatic weapons fire from the river banks.” Lambert won his Bronze Star for an action precisely paralleling Kerry’s: Lambert picked someone out of the river. In Lambert’s case, that someone was his skipper, Thurlow.

Thurlow had steered his Swift Boat to the aid of its companion damaged by the mine, personally leaping into the foundering craft to aid its badly wounded crew while Lambert “directed accurate suppressing fire at the enemy,” according to the citation. In the swirling confusion, Thurlow was then knocked overboard from the wrecked launch. Lambert “from an exposed position and with complete disregard for his personal safety” pulled Thurlow back on to his Swift Boat, the citation says. It concludes by commending Lambert’s “coolness, professionalism and courage under fire.”

Lambert’s surviving military records do not include the initial recommendation for this medal, so there is no way to know who filled the required role of witness to vouch for Lambert’s actions. But the citation contains such detail about the actions of both Thurlow and Lambert—actions that Kerry cannot have known since his launch was on the far side of the river—that it seems implausible Kerry could have written the recommendation.
Lambert’s military record shows he retired from the U.S. Navy in 1978. Efforts to trace him have been unsuccessful. A spokesman for Swift Boat Veterans for Truth said Wednesday that Thurlow was traveling and out of contact.

 

[Skookum]

or Bravo if that Hair Salon reality show is on...

It was like a snowflake falling on a wrm window on a winter's morn...


Beautiful for the moment... then gone forever...

No it really doesn't work that way unfortunately. Kind of like if you're brother is gay you'd figure you might get free drinks at the gay bar... but then again if you give a wink or two you'd be suprised at what you can get.....

:devil:

ok i'll stop now....

 

[N8 v2.0]

I'm a confident heterosexual.

 

[Slugman]

These guys make it too easy...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5835000/

Swift Boat crewman: Kerry boat took fire
Says Thurlow 'too distracted' to notice gunfire

Bob Pennell / AP

Swift Boat crew member Robert Lambert, at his Eagle Point, Ore., home Wednesday, says he is no supporter of John Kerry, but backs up Kerry's version of the now-disputed events that led to Bronze Stars for both men in Vietnam.

The Associated Press
Updated: 1:40 a.m. ET Aug. 27, 2004

PORTLAND, Ore. - A Swift Boat crewman decorated in the 1969 Vietnam incident where John Kerry won a Bronze Star says not only did they come under enemy fire but also that his own boat commander, who has challenged the official account, was too distracted to notice the gunfire.

Retired Chief Petty Officer Robert E. Lambert, of Eagle Point, Ore., got a Bronze Star for pulling his boat commander — Lt. Larry Thurlow — out of the Bay Hap River on March 13, 1969. Thurlow had jumped onto another Swift Boat to aid sailors wounded by a mine explosion but fell off when the out-of-control boat ran aground.

Thurlow, who has been prominent among a group of veterans challenging the Democratic presidential candidate’s record, has said there was no enemy fire during the incident. Lambert, however, supports the Navy account that says all five Swift Boats in the task force “came under small arms and automatic weapon fire from the river banks” when the mine detonated.

“I thought we were under fire, I believed we were under fire,” Lambert said in a telephone interview with The Associated Press.

“Thurlow was far too distracted with rescue efforts to even realize he was under fire. He was concentrating on trying to save lives.”

The anti-Kerry group, Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, has been running television ads challenging the Navy account of the boats being under fire. Kerry has condemned the ads as a Republican smear campaign.

'What happened happened'
A career military man, Lambert is no fan of Kerry’s either. He doesn’t like Kerry’s post-Vietnam anti-war activity and doesn’t plan to vote for him.

“I don’t like the man himself,” Lambert said, “but I think what happened happened, and he was there.”

A March 1969 Navy report located by The Associated Press this week supports Lambert’s version. The report twice mentions the incident and both times calls it “an enemy initiated firefight” that included automatic weapons fire and underwater mines used against a group of five boats that included Kerry’s.

Kerry’s Bronze Star was awarded for his pulling Special Forces Lt. Jim Rassmann, who had been blown off the boat, out of the river. Rassmann, who is retired and lives in Florence, Ore., has said repeatedly that the boats were under fire, as have other witnesses. Lambert didn’t see that rescue because Kerry was farther down the river and “I was busy pulling my own boat officer (Thurlow) out of the water.”

Thurlow could not be reached for comment about Lambert’s recollections.

But speaking for the Swift Boat Veterans group, Van Odell, who was in the task force that day, remembers it differently from Lambert.

“When they’re firing, you can hear the rounds hit the boat or buzz by your head. There was none of that,” he said in a telephone interview from Katy, Texas, where he lives.

On Thursday, the group released a 30-second Internet ad disputing Kerry’s contention that his Swift Boat crossed into Cambodia. Kerry’s campaign has acknowledged that he may not have been in Cambodia on Christmas Eve of 1968, as he has previously stated, but that he does recall being on patrol along the Cambodia-Vietnam border on that date.

Lambert said the Swift Boats were on their way out of the river when a mine exploded under one, PCF-3.

'Always a firefight'
“When they blew the 3-boat, everyone opened up on the banks with everything they had,” he said. “That was the normal procedure. When they came after you, they came after you. Somebody on shore blew that mine.”

“There was always a firefight” after a mine detonation, he said.

“Kerry was out in front of us, on down the river. He had to come back up the river to get to us.”

Lambert retired in 1978 as a chief petty officer with 22 years of service and three tours in Vietnam. He does not remember ever meeting Kerry.

 

[dante]

WHO CARES?????

Why can't we talk about Iraq, the Economy, Healthcare, Jobs, the Environment, Abortion, Corporate Crime, Civil Liberties, Terrorism???? CURRENT ISSUES. I'll start:

Iraq:
"Bush admits mistake in Iraq war planning." Tell that to the families of the soldiers killed.

Economy:
1.5m jobs lost, Bush admin. says outsourcing to other countries a good thing.

Healthcare:
How many more Americans don't have health insurance now than 4 years ago?

Jobs:
Ties in with Economy. Average salary down from 4 years ago.

Environment:
Gov. supported logging in wilderness areas, companies held to looser air cleanliness standards, etc.

Abortion:
Plank in GOP platform calls for outlawing all abortion.

Corporate Crime:
Enron's Kenneth Lay GWB's #1 supporter, has not been charged in court yet (maybe he has by now). Halliburton under Dick Cheney convicted of fraud by SEC, ordered to pay $7.5m.

Civil Liberties:
Americans being held indefinitely without access to lawers or being charged with a crime.

Terrorism:
Terrorist acts have gone UP since we invaded Iraq. So much for GWB's assertion that we are now safer.

And yet all the news media can focus on is whether a decorated war veteran deserved one of his 3 purple hearts or whether he was under "intense" enemy fire when he turned his boat around 30 years ago.

:angry:

 

[Slugman]

WHO CARES?????

Well since these adds have had a negative effect on Kerry's polls, I really felt that it should be addressed...

All the other issues you mentioned would make a good NEW thread... post away!

 

[N8 v2.0]

I predict that Kerry will lose the election largely because of his Vietnam escapades...

He never should have made those 4 months in SE Asia as the main reason for people to elect him.

Too bad he didn't do anything in his 19 years in the US Senate that he could use as a justification.

 

[dante]

I predict that Kerry will lose the election largely because of his Vietnam escapades...

He never should have made those 4 months in SE Asia as the main reason for people to elect him.

Too bad he didn't do anything in his 19 years in the US Senate that he could use as a justification.

I predict that *if* Kerry loses the election it'll be because it's become about him and his record instead of the administration's. With zero good news to report, the administration has only been able to bash Kerry's record and the news media have let him.

:angry:

 

[N8 v2.0]

I predict that *if* Kerry loses the election it'll be because it's become about him and his record instead of the administration's. With zero good news to report, the administration has only been able to bash Kerry's record and the news media have let him.

:angry:

Yeah... the liberal media is really a GOP lap dog...

 

[fluff]

Yeah... the liberal media is really a GOP lap dog...

Which liberal media are those N8?

 

[dante]

Which liberal media are those N8?

you know, the liberal media: faux news, new york post, washington times, talk radio, etc... or maybe he means the rest of the media who conveniently misrepresented the case for war in Iraq.