[kidwoo]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/whistler-blackcomb-vail-resorts-1.3711427

They've obviously got summer world domination in mind. I know they're working on the mothership in vail proper this year, they've been running around trying to figure out which south lake tahoe holding to do a bike park with, they already own operations at northstar, plus the utah and summit co mountains........

Hopefully they run things a little different in a civilized first world country like canada.

 

[4130biker]

I have no clue about vail since I am not a snow sport guy. How do they run things? Wouldn't it be good to get some more bike resorts? I hope it doesn't negatively impact whistler, whatever they do!

 

[kidwoo]

Vail seems like they want to turn every mountain they acquire into a more expensive 'outdoor vacation experience' for periodic tourists (at the expense of regulars), and generally don't listen to people they should listen to regarding bike parks. They have some mildly successful things going, but they tend to acquire them, not build them. IMO, the things they have taken on since acquisition are the typical misguided clueless american shit berm parks. They do have a good crew working on vail mountain proper right now however.......after some bad work previously by someone else.

But whistler became what it is for bikes because they did essentially the exact opposite of what every mountain in the US does. They invested first, and knew doing it well would pay off. That's not really how vail operates. fortunately there's already enough in place at whistler, they'd have to really fuck things up for it to matter.

I will say with the one example closest to me, northstar, they didn't do squat to change how the bike park was run. That's actually a bad thing because it's run by people who should not be making trail decisions for lift served riding. But if that approach is taken to whistler, then hey, all good for the most part. It will just continue to get more expensive.

Northstar and Heavenly here in winter were already groomer hellscapes with 60 dollar parking and 100 dollar lift tickets before vail got them, so as far as I can tell, no change there.



Peeps in CO would know the empire way better than I however.

 

[gemini2k]

Why can't the DOJ start blocking this stuff on anti-trust grounds. Tahoe seems like the perfect example. Pretty ridiculous that a single entitiy controls such a large portion of the reosrts there . Things like this are definitely a loss for consumers.

 

[SkaredShtles]

<snip>
Hopefully they run things a little different in a civilized first world country like canada.

Heh.

<snip> (like Keystone),

Fixed that for you.

Here's the thing: gnar bike parks don't make Vail any money to speak of. It's about filling horrendously expensive condos with upper-middle-class middle aged people and their spawn to spend god-awful amounts of money on shit like fake climbing walls and those human-spinny things.

If they put any effort into two-wheeled recreation it will be in the form of more smooth, bermed trails for the above-mentioned middle-aged dollar-spenders.

 

[SylentK]

In CO, Vail Resorts owns, in addition to Vail: Beaver Creek, Breckenridge, Keystone, Arapahoe Basin.

They kind of "assigned" Keystone to be the main bike park mountain. But have invested a little in Vail too (for the record I do love riding Vail, but you gotta know where to go . But neither of them are a Whistler. Breck has a shit ton of XC trails all over the town, the lift accessed stuff actually kinda sucks. The Beav used to have a great DH trail (Stickline) but I think they don't allow bikes on the lift anymore. The only thing ABasin is good for is the LeeNaWee trail. As they have no other bike trails and am pretty sure they don't have anything going on in summer, unlike the rest of the resorts.

I do think that Vail (the corporation as well as the mountain) tends to go for the meat of the bell curve as far as who they try to attract: Families. You should see the ropes course and roller coaster they put up. Also, Vail mtn regularly closes mtb trails to do things for the winter season and/or other non-MTB activities (see roller coaster above). They probably realize mountain biking is okay, but def is not the bread winner. I don't think they'd want to mess with how Whistler does anything, assuming it makes money. If the bike park is loosing money, that's another story.

 

[SkaredShtles]

In CO, Vail Resorts owns, in addition to Vail: Beaver Creek, Breckenridge, Keystone, Arapahoe Basin.

Arapahoe Basin is not owned by Vail Resorts - they are just loosely affiliated with them.

 

[SylentK]

Hmm...interesting. Thanks for enlightening me.

From teh google machine: The mountain was purchased by Ralston Purina in 1978 and then sold to Vail Resorts. However in 1997 the Justice Department ruled that the ownership of Arapahoe Basin, Breckenridge, and Keystone in Summit County by Vail Resorts constituted a monopoly and they were forced to sell the ski area. However the close ties left reciprocal benefits for a holder of a Vail Resorts lift ticket to be able to ski at Arapahoe Basin as well.

 

[kidwoo]

Here's the thing: gnar bike parks don't make Vail any money to speak of. It's about filling horrendously expensive condos with upper-middle-class middle aged people and their spawn to spend god-awful amounts of money on shit like fake climbing walls and those human-spinny things.

If they put any effort into two-wheeled recreation it will be in the form of more smooth, bermed trails for the above-mentioned middle-aged dollar-spenders.

When I reference the shitty way US resorts have approached bike parks, it's this exact recitation right here.

While it's true, that IS what vail and other US resorts have set themselves up for, it's a self fulfilling prophecy.

When did whistler first get on your radar? For me it was about 2001. I've been every year since 2003. The following year, or two garbanzo opened, more and more trails were getting built, and it became THE bike destination. Do you remember what was fueling that growth? It sure as shit wasn't crank it up and b-line. Orginal sin, A-merchant-line-dirt, schleyer, whistler dh etc was what fueled that growth.

Gnar dh trails don't make vail money because they don't fucking have any. Because they haven't really tried. Whistler did. And drank the milkshake of every half assing effort resort in the US over the last decade and a half.

Whistler hired people who knew bikes to structure trails. Vail hired hold over lifties. The outcomes were set from the beginning in both of those approaches. When your answer to a-line is the friggin money trail at keystone, what do you think is going to happen?


I meant winter park BTW. I thought they ate that place up too. No?

 

[SkaredShtles]

Nope - Winter Park got gobbled up by Intrawest.

The $$ associated wtih gnar trails is, sadly, a drop in the $$ bucket when family-type middle-aged upper-middle-class arsewipes are considered.

For the record - I'm not interested in gnar DH 'cause I'm a middle-aged wuss.

 

[Toshi]

FWIW I'd be interested in more family friendly stuff at Vail along with more lift accessed biking. It would make for an easier sell to the wife: take the kids up, have fun with them on the waterslide/zipline/whatever while I bike.

 

[kidwoo]

Nope - Winter Park got gobbled up by Intrawest.
[/QUOTE]

I got my empires confused.

The $$ associated wtih gnar trails is, sadly, a drop in the $$ bucket when family-type middle-aged upper-middle-class arsewipes are considered.

For the record - I'm not interested in gnar DH 'cause I'm a middle-aged wuss.

I still don't buy it. There's a dedicated group of people in this sport who are just flat out going to give you dependable, repeatable money if you build good terrain. That's why whistler has flourished and everyone down here has floundered, other than winter park and maybe mountain creek. It doesn't even need to be 'gnar' trails, it just has to be fun to ride a bike on. And people will come consisitently, buy passes, buy lunch more than 4 days a year on their one vacation, maybe even buy a time share for summer because they'll be there enough. I've already seen it happen far too many times. It's a dependable population and revenue source.

But it's irregular customers they're targeting. Someone who comes with a family once or twice a year, spends proportionally more money per day because of that..........but then might be into slacklining or paddleboarding the following year because they weren't really mountainbikers to begin with.

This is why whistler was/is different. They manage to do both. It hasn't occurred to any of these fools that people with 6-10k mountainbikes have already proven they're willing to spend money for something they genuinely love. That should be targeted. Hard. Whistler did that. And the contrast with that place and ANY us bike park is just laughable.

Seriously, what one mountain in north america sticks out? Whistler. What's different about it? It's the trails man. They're done right and done in such volume (and now variety) that people like me travel thousands of miles to go there, regularly. No one does that for northstar, vail or keystone.

 

[SkaredShtles]

FWIW I'd be interested in more family friendly stuff at Vail along with more lift accessed biking. It would make for an easier sell to the wife: take the kids up, have fun with them on the waterslide/zipline/whatever while I bike.

Heh - this already exists. As someone mentioned... you just need to know where to go.

 

[SkaredShtles]

I still don't buy it. <snip>

You don't have to buy it.

 

[kidwoo]

You don't have to buy it.

Don't be so bullheaded. Read what I wrote.

The minute someone builds the trail infrastructure whistler had 15 years ago and fails, you'll have a point. But that hasn't happened.

So far the only ones who have even come close, are doing pretty well.

 

[lolWes]

This is actually a ploy by our robot overlords to push the e-word agenda. They are slowly going to dumb down all the trails in the bike park until the only viable option for people to ride are all the valley trails outside the park. Forcing people to trade in their 45lb kona stinky huck machines for svelte trail weapons that have been praised in their abilities to "climb like and XC bike and descend like a DH bike" in various reviews.

Richie Rude for supreme MTB overlord 2020

 

[SkaredShtles]

Don't be so bullheaded. Read what I wrote.

Just keep beating that drum.

Have you SEEN any of the executives/directors that are making these decisions?

I mean, if Intrawest's Whistler example couldn't convince them... what makes you think your ranting will?

 

[kidwoo]

Just keep beating that drum.

Have you SEEN any of the executives/directors that are making these decisions?

I mean, if Intrawest's Whistler example couldn't convince them... what makes you think your ranting will?

What???

You mean me bitching about it on the internet isn't going to change the world?????????

Where the hell did I ever say they're going to do anything right? Read the damn thread title FFS.


Jesus christ dude. I'm not beating a drum, I'm pointing out the obvious, while you defend obvious failure like it's some kind of infinite, inherent truth.You say they don't make money of dh trails......no shit. They don't have any (until today) so your point is kind of baseless.


I and everyone I ride with actually spends money to go beat on dh bikes. It sounds like you're fairly well removed.

 

[SylentK]

I think it's your assumption that bikers spend a lot of money (close to or same as families) that Vail Resorts would disagree with.

The American DHer's stereotype is that of a cheap ass dirty whiskey tango bro dude. They don't buy food, drinks or anything from the local businesses. They camp instead of pay for hotel. And they're generally rude to the "real" tourists. This is what the C levels at Vail R will tell you.

Vail did host several XC/DH World Cups and even the World Champs. Perhaps a change in senior leadership occurred?

 

[kidwoo]

I think it's your assumption that bikers spend a lot of money (close to or same as families) that Vail Resorts would disagree with.

The American DHer's stereotype is that of a cheap ass dirty whiskey tango bro dude. They don't buy food, drinks or anything from the local businesses. They camp instead of pay for hotel. And they're generally rude to the "real" tourists. This is what the C levels at Vail R will tell you.

Vail did host several XC/DH World Cups and even the World Champs. Perhaps a change in senior leadership occurred?

It's not an assumption of mine, I even said their targeted families spend more per visit day. That's why they exclusively chase them. But I ALSO said that the average consistent bike rider provides a sect of reliable repeatable income that they shouldn't ignore. That's not an either/or proposition.

But that's the segment where the reputation comes from. Hence A-basin as 'the skier's mountain', squaw valley as the gnarly ski terrain, whistler bike park as THE north american bike park. None of the reputations of those places came from passive family visitors.

I very specfically said whistler succeeds these days because they target both. Not target one at the expense of another. If whistler had started out building b-line over and over again, it wouldn't have nearly the reputation or following for regular business (both casual vacationers AND hardcore locals) that it does today. It's a spectacle. The good riders can have fun putting it on, and the casual visitor can have fun watching and being there to consider themselves part of it.

When's the last time you spent some days in whistler? That place is full of middle aged dentists with dh bikes dropping money every night on booze and food. Any day of the week. But they don't shun the parking lot dirtbags to court them. They take the dirtbag money too. And build trails for the best of every sect to have fun on.

 

[SylentK]

You provide thoughtful, intelligent arguments. I'm with you. Maybe the Whistler acquisition will open the eyes of the CO Vail Resorts douche bags.

As for trails, Vail mtn did put in two new-ish machine-built flow trails. Big Mamba is def for teh families. The Radio Flyer is more for us folks who know how to ride while still being easy enough for experienced families. Notice both of them are family friendly.

Matt Thopson's trail crew/company (of former Sol Vista) is working with Vail mtn this season. So there's that. They just re-did the bottom of Mane Lane.

Oh and all their black trails (Magic Forest, Old 9, Mane Lane, PMT) are legit DH and super fun IMO. Just not Aline, Dirt Merchant, In Deep legit DH and super fun. And there's only 4 of them. On the map, anyway

 

[marshalolson]

The reason keystone has the real bike park is because it is closest to Denver.

 

[kidwoo]

Sylent:

I've ridden vail (with Matty t's coworker, the little pudgy guy who goes fast) so I've seen what's there. And yeah, I know what they're up to. Those two are who I go to whistler with usually. That place and keystone could be every bit of what whistler is IMO. They just need to do it. They're obviously expressing an interest in not sucking.

As far as bike parks, I just don't see how anyone could look at the bottom line of any of these places, visit whistler and not see the so very obvious differences. It's not just blue velvet.

I'm not going to go into it here but the excuses I've heard from some of the now vail-owned entities is just mind boggling. People regularly travel from all over the world to go to whistler. I'd much rather do that with one of the mountains in CO every year. But first they gotta do what whistler did.

Hopefully they are. If anything though, I think this acquisition might foster a company wide mindset of "well, our REAL bike park is whistler, we don't need to spend that kind of money here on that kind of thing. Your epic pass is good there, so just go there instead. We still get your money"

 

[SylentK]

Haha poor Swentz!

Good points all across the board. And I could totally see them pulling what you describe in the last paragraph.

 

[SkaredShtles]

<snip>
I and everyone I ride with actually spends money to go beat on dh bikes. It sounds like you're fairly well removed.

But they need to appeal to the unwashed hoards. And DH'ers just don't make up a hoard. Even if you put them ALL together.

Haven't you heard - DH'n is dead.

 

[SkaredShtles]

<snip> Maybe the Whistler acquisition will open the eyes of the CO Vail Resorts douche bags.

I like your optimism, son.

 

[profro]

… the typical misguided clueless american shit berm parks.

Woo, you are fountain of memorable quotes. Thanks.

 

[SkaredShtles]

<snip>
If anything though, I think this acquisition might foster a company wide mindset of "well, our REAL bike park is whistler, we don't need to spend that kind of money here on that kind of thing. Your epic pass is good there, so just go there instead. We still get your money"

 

[kidwoo]

But they need to appeal to the unwashed hoards. And DH'ers just don't make up a hoard. Even if you put them ALL together.

Haven't you heard - DH'n is dead.

Go wash your chamois and work on that strava time up belcher.

 

[Nick]

I've come to believe that the model is build trails for the masses, to increase the cash flows towards the break even point, then it's a contest to suck the least.

Trestle nailed the first part; they've got a real scene going on there although the majority of trails are quite similar. Now, they're claiming to be building "steep and gnar dh race runs" in this latest expansion on the other side of the mountain. Let's hope so.

Keystone has some of the goods, as does Vail. I think both are following the "masses first" model.

 

[SkaredShtles]

Go wash your chamois and work on that strava time up belcher.

Man, I fucking hate Belcher.

 

[Mr Lahey]

Not really relevant to Whistler but since purchasing a small ski resort in Michigan Vail has built an awesome Wednesday night dual slalom series.

The course is very well built, the chairlift spins, there is live music, food, and tons of beer.

To my knowledge these events were not offered under the previous mom and pop ownership.

 

[gemini2k]

Nope - Winter Park got gobbled up by Intrawest.

The $$ associated wtih gnar trails is, sadly, a drop in the $$ bucket when family-type middle-aged upper-middle-class arsewipes are considered.

For the record - I'm not interested in gnar DH 'cause I'm a middle-aged wuss.

Gnar trails don't make any money directly. Their real 'financial' value is as a promotional tool. Young kids in the midwest get super hyped seeing videos of Whistler's awesome Gnar trails and pester mom and dad to go to Whistler. Although they never end up riding the gnar trails, it still draws them out there. I know this because growing up in high school in IL I did this to my parents...but never suceeded.

Additionally, us "Gnar-core" Downhillers get old eventually. We start having to bring GFs and wives and kids to the bike parks...and the circle continues.

And like Kidwoo was saying. Have you been to Whistler lately? I was there last month (and going again in 2 weeks). Pretty much no one rides the Gnarly DH trails. You'll see a good amount of people on dirt merchant maybe. But I saw like....maybe 10 people the whole weekend riding Crack addict, fade to black, scheleyer, joyride, Dwayne Johnson, etc. And this was with 20 minute lift lines at the bottom. 95% percent of the riders are still only doing b-line, a-line, CIU, Asian animal trails, etc.

 

[kidwoo]

And like Kidwoo was saying. Have you been to Whistler lately? I was there last month (and going again in 2 weeks). Pretty much no one rides the Gnarly DH trails.

That is so not true. I was yelling "rider back" at you for like 20 minutes.

 

[Jm_]

What if Tantrum Cycles gets involved? Surely then it will be better?

 

[norbar]

Nope - Winter Park got gobbled up by Intrawest.

I got my empires confused.





I still don't buy it. There's a dedicated group of people in this sport who are just flat out going to give you dependable, repeatable money if you build good terrain. That's why whistler has flourished and everyone down here has floundered, other than winter park and maybe mountain creek. It doesn't even need to be 'gnar' trails, it just has to be fun to ride a bike on. And people will come consisitently, buy passes, buy lunch more than 4 days a year on their one vacation, maybe even buy a time share for summer because they'll be there enough. I've already seen it happen far too many times. It's a dependable population and revenue source.

But it's irregular customers they're targeting. Someone who comes with a family once or twice a year, spends proportionally more money per day because of that..........but then might be into slacklining or paddleboarding the following year because they weren't really mountainbikers to begin with.

This is why whistler was/is different. They manage to do both. It hasn't occurred to any of these fools that people with 6-10k mountainbikes have already proven they're willing to spend money for something they genuinely love. That should be targeted. Hard. Whistler did that. And the contrast with that place and ANY us bike park is just laughable.

Seriously, what one mountain in north america sticks out? Whistler. What's different about it? It's the trails man. They're done right and done in such volume (and now variety) that people like me travel thousands of miles to go there, regularly. No one does that for northstar, vail or keystone.

The thing is you are both right. Most money in bikes is in trails for middle aged people with no fitness and balls the size of raisings but even they don't go to a place which advertises itself as "shitty slow riders wellcome". They want to feel like the pros on the movies even if they won't reach any landing on any trail they have seen on the tubes.

I also agree it's good to be a premier destination for good riders but that's a small market. I think a few places like that per country, hell maybe even per continent as a ton of faster riders tend to be cheap since they spend their time riding, not fixing teeth. A good example here are Euro spots with amazing WC tracks that get little traffick (Schladming, Maribor, Champery part of PDS). Gnar alone won't work.


btw. You really pay for parking for US mountain resorts?

 

[Mo(n)arch]

btw. You really pay for parking for US mountain resorts?

That sh!t becomes the norm in the alps too. Some resorts in Southtyrol, North tyrol and obviously Switzerland charge for parking. Some year round, others only in the winter. And others don't.

In Southtyrol the few assisted DH-trails are also just "flowtrails". One of our favourite tracks (rooty, ruts, lots of off camber in the woods and really, really steep bits) was destroyed in favour of a "MTB-track" that can be ridden on a BMX with two brakes.
Now there are tons of people on their XC-29er-hardtails riding that track. And I brought my girlfriend for her first "DH day" on this track just two weeks ago.
Plus side is: She loved it.
Minus side: They destroyed one of the few proper DH-tracks (the Caidom DH-Marathon was held there with the likes of Danny Hart who won there back in his Lapierre-days) in that region.

The thing is, flow trails generate traffic. The DH tracks and rough singletracks are mostly empty.
As long as the proper tracks don't get destroyed I am a happy man.

 

[SkaredShtles]

The thing is you are both right.

Wat?!? IMPOSSIBRU!!

<snip>
btw. You really pay for parking for US mountain resorts?

In Vail you pay for EVERYTHING, Bub.

 

[Electric_City]

Wow! This thread is full of shit and hearsay. - They have to cater to the upper middle class, .03% of people with an average of 2 kids that don't like our sport but tried it while staying in a million dollar condo. Like, cause that's what one of my buddies heard that works for a shop that knows the lift-op manager...

Shut the hell up. Really. We all have to wait and see. That's it...

Not one single person on here knows why Whistler sold out. No one really knows how to run a ski resort, nevermind a year round resort.

I'm not claiming to know anything about it either. To be frank, I'm scared too. Who knows what will happen? No one really. But much like Marzoocchi back in '09, every little fault will be posted online and blamed on this transaction. But ya know what, give it a year or 3.

Who knows, maybe Gravity Logic will be building up Vail and other mtns too. But that's just a thought.

Carry on...

 

[kickstand]

Vail bought the tiny little shit hole Mt. Brighton you all once saw in Aspen Extreme (If you watched it). They have for the last 3 years put on a dual slalom series on wednesday nights. It's gotten marginally better each year and they have slowly invested in racks for the chairs, etc. I hope that is the direction Vail takes Whistler, or better yet, I hope Vail learns from Whistler and sees how they do things and pushes it out to their other resorts.

That said, it's not likely I will be spending a ton of time at any Vail resorts anytime soon other than the local shithole for DS races, so it won't affect me much yet.