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The Official Iron Horse Sunday / DW-Link Tech. & Tuning Section

Udi

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,918
1,213
Raingauge / Iceman -
Yeah I don't think those measurements are in this thread (at least I haven't seen them?), hopefully someone can measure them for you. Are you guys going to machine your own up? I'd definitely be interested in buying a spare pair if you are. Next time I have those pivots out I'll measure them if someone doesn't beat me to it but it may be a while.

Brownie -
Air pressure in the DHX just increases the position-sensitive compression damping, on a dyno its result on the damping curves isn't very different from the propedal adjuster (which you don't have so it doesn't matter). Since you don't have the bottom out adjuster either, I'd suggest starting at 120psi and then increasing to 140psi in 5-10psi increments if you are bottoming out too easily. There is some more info in my post here.
 
Udi

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,918
1,213
If you were very generous with the stuff between the pivot axle and the lower link, and don't touch it for 48h (I assume you assembled everything and tightened all the bolts on that pivot / link) - then it should be good.

Out of curiosity, did you get the links anodized, and only have the problem after anodizing?
 
OB1

OB1

Monkey
Jul 17, 2006
494
1
San Diego, California, United States
Udi said:
If you were very generous with the stuff between the pivot axle and the lower link, and don't touch it for 48h (I assume you assembled everything and tightened all the bolts on that pivot / link) - then it should be good.

Out of curiosity, did you get the links anodized, and only have the problem after anodizing?
Click to expand...
No, you're looking at paint. I bought this from the original owner. He "had it" painted, I was told. But I just started having these issues after 7-10 months of my ownership. And yes, I followed your directions to a tee. So if it doesn't work...its all your fault!:p All parts were thoroughly cleaned...609 was applied liberally, and I put the lower link together as specified. But the upper link obviously needs time to cure before bolting up so the link doesn't push the bearing out. Hence the lame Frankenstein zip tie setup. I'll be running this rig Sunday. So I'll be pushing your time table to 42hrs instead of 48.:oops: Thanks again for the suggestions.:thumb:
 
Iceman

Iceman

Chimp
Feb 14, 2009
39
0
Sweden
Udi said:
Raingauge / Iceman -
Yeah I don't think those measurements are in this thread (at least I haven't seen them?), hopefully someone can measure them for you. Are you guys going to machine your own up? I'd definitely be interested in buying a spare pair if you are. Next time I have those pivots out I'll measure them if someone doesn't beat me to it but it may be a while.
Click to expand...
Not to promise to much here, but yes I will give it a try. Got the shock pin turned already, just need the thread measurements for the hexheaded pivots and I'm off to CNC the prototype pair.
If someone hands me the thread dimensions by this weekend, then I can start the production within next week or so... I'll se what I can do :)
 
rewster

rewster

Monkey
Feb 3, 2007
245
0
charlotte nc
Udi said:
Please read back over the last few pages, your problems were covered in great detail had you bothered to read.
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way to be a.....hrmm, what's the word.....

i'm sure he's read all 137 pages, in depth at one time or another, over the span of years of sunday ownership. apparently ob believed his problem to be unique to the other cases, so he asked for constructive criticism. after looking at the rig first hand, i believe the problem stems from tolerance issues on the extended race enduro-max bearings. i had the same issue and solved it with some shimz; locktite should not be the first resort
 
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Udi

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,918
1,213
Bearings don't have tolerance issues, frames do, especially after stripping or re-finishing. Shims do not correct poor press fits of bearings into bores, merely spacing issues. A loctite product exists (not loctite itself, at least in the conventional sense i.e. threadlocker) for solving this exact problem and that is why I recommended it.

His issues involved a failed pressfit on the upper swingarm bearings, and play developed between lower swingarm pivot and axle. I explained the issues and solutions in great deal over the last few pages of this thread, and if you bothered to read even the few posts above yours, you'd realise we've already dealt with the issue.

Oh, and idiot. I think that's the word you were looking for. :)
 
rewster

rewster

Monkey
Feb 3, 2007
245
0
charlotte nc
Udi said:
Bearings don't have tolerance issues, frames do, especially after stripping or re-finishing. Shims do not correct poor press fits of bearings into bores, merely spacing issues. A loctite product exists (not loctite itself, at least in the conventional sense i.e. threadlocker) for solving this exact problem and that is why I recommended it.

His issues involved a failed pressfit on the upper swingarm bearings, and play developed between lower swingarm pivot and axle. I explained the issues and solutions in great deal over the last few pages of this thread, and if you bothered to read even the few posts above yours, you'd realise we've already dealt with the issue.

Oh, and idiot. I think that's the word you were looking for. :)
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no, not idiot. more along the lines of dick, douche, twat....you know, something more degrading. and there you go again with that "if you had bothered to read..."

i know ob1 personally. you are making assumptions based of a picture and a few posts. therefore, you can't fully diagnose the "issue" you think you've "dealt with". yes, you're in the right direction on the upper swingarm. I wasn't talking about shimming the pressfit, but rather the space between the extended race bearings and the lower link. and yes, bearings can have tolerance issues.....take an engineering class or two, it's given me a stunning grasp of the obvious.

moral of my post is don't be a d1ck when someone merely asks for constructive criticism.
 
Udi

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,918
1,213
All he posted was a description, and based on that description, I said the issue had already been covered. I don't believe any more constructive criticism could have been given based on what was provided. If you have a better grasp of the issue because you have more experience than me and physical access to the frame, then maybe you should go help your friend. My point is, you coming on here and having a cry after the issue has been discussed and addressed just makes you look like a child.

I've owned 07, 08, 09 sunday frames over two race seasons and two years, and have spent that time working on the same year sunday frames of others as well. I'd like to think I've seen most possible issues with these, and the two your friend described were textbook.

Also - my point regarding bearings wasn't literal, however I think you'll find that the enduro bearings have no tolerance issues. If you want to debate this, I'd like to see vernier measurements of enduro bearings (of the same model) with significantly different tolerances. By significant I mean out of specification and/or enough to cause an issue. I also think you'll find this is the case with most reputable bearing manufacturers. There is much stricter QC measures on things like bearings than bicycle frames, and of all the issues I've seen on bicycle frames over the years, poorly sized bearings have not been one of them.

In regards to shimming, I have never seen an issue that requires shimming between lower link and bearing inner races on the 07+ frames. In that case I would be inclined to check that the bearing seats were clean and did not have excess paint/pc on them, and that the bearings were pressed in and seated properly. However like I said, if you have the frame in front of you, and there is left-right movement between the link and bearing races (as opposed to between the link and swingarm pivot axle) then by all means instruct your friend appropriately and sort it out.

Bottom line is, like I already said, based on the description provided - the best possible answers had already been given. On the internet, problems like these can only be resolved step by step (i.e. check symptoms, try known solution, if fail, try different solution).

When you figure out a way to teleport frames across the globe insantly, and pay me to write cute, friendly posts, I'll be more than happy to keep you happy. :)
 
rewster

rewster

Monkey
Feb 3, 2007
245
0
charlotte nc
Udi said:
My point is, you coming on here and having a cry after the issue has been discussed and addressed just makes you look like a child.
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Having a cry? I just commented on your unnecessarily condescending tone, nothing more. I'll take child over dickhead anyday, but hey, to each his own.
 
Iceman

Iceman

Chimp
Feb 14, 2009
39
0
Sweden
Here's something constructive you can do instead of wasting e-paper: go and find out the thread measurement, so that I can start CNC'ing my pivots! :)
 
O

OG4LIFE

Chimp
Jul 6, 2009
40
0
Helena, MT
I've been following the lower link problem threads. Mine is an 08 with some play beginning in the lower-rear pivot. Creaks every so often. Took it apart to find the bearing rather rough, soo I popped the cover and packed em with grease--this helped, but I'd like to get some new bearings for them. Where can I find some bearings?? Looked all over with the only results in the UK. The shop here cannot get them either.

UDI--Before I go ahead and stick the green bushing glue to the bearings, how do you get them out (with out destroying everything around them), once they are glued in the bore, if they should need to be replaced?? One more question: You are suggesting that I apply the glue to the shaft/lower link interface?? Wouldn't that make any future disassembly almost impossible? The stuff I have worked with before required much heat to break loose. Can't remember the # and all that, but that is the reasoning behind my questions.

One last thing: With the results I have gotten from trying to locate parts for this frame--We all need to ralley around the iceman to get his CNC up and truning parts if we plan to continue to run these bikes, which is a truely great riding design.
 
M

m.m.w.

Chimp
Jun 23, 2009
66
0
You can get the bearings directly from enduroforkseals.

You shouldn't take the very strong Loctites for this... And the resistance to get it out again depends a lot on the glued surface. It's not too big at the bearings, and the axle has a smaller diameter in the middle, so it's only glued in the ends.
But I haven't tried to disassemble a loctited DW link on a Sunday myself.

Why do you want to glue the bearings if the play comes from the axle?
 
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Iceman

Iceman

Chimp
Feb 14, 2009
39
0
Sweden
OG4LIFE said:
I've been following the lower link problem threads. Mine is an 08 with some play beginning in the lower-rear pivot. Creaks every so often. Took it apart to find the bearing rather rough, soo I popped the cover and packed em with grease--this helped, but I'd like to get some new bearings for them. Where can I find some bearings?? Looked all over with the only results in the UK. The shop here cannot get them either.

[...]
Click to expand...
The only bearing distributor that I know of is Enduro. Here you go, complete IH bearing line-up:
http://www.enduroforkseals.com/id266.html

And for shipping information, click this link:
http://www.enduroforkseals.com/id13.html
 
O

OG4LIFE

Chimp
Jul 6, 2009
40
0
Helena, MT
Great! Thanks guys! Now if they have them in stock:thumb:.

MMW--I believe the instructions were to glue the bearings into their bores as well as the shaft to the pivot bore. I don't seem to have the play in the interface between the bearings and their bore, but can see a bit of side to side or torsional play in the link-between the chainstay mounts. I will have to get a buddy to confirm what I am seeing, but that would indicate to me that the shaft has wallowed out the link bore or I have some play between the inside bearing races and the link. The link allen bolts were tightened to the torque spec, but after noticing the movement I gave them a little extra and now the movement has been reduced to where I can't tell where the source of it is from. With that said--to hell with the torque specs! I'll turn 'em until I figure they are tight. I plan to replace the bearings and, at that time, go ahead and do the glue job just for peace of mind (since you are confident that they can be removed later).

Iceman--I will work to get the aluminum nuts out and gather up a measurement, if you still need one.
 
Udi

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,918
1,213
Just to clarify, it's not glue, and it's not threadlock.
It's called a retaining compound, and it cures anaerobically like some of the other loctite products (in the abscence of air). I'd recommend reading up on it here. There are a number of different products and there might be one that's better than what has already been discussed, 620 caught my eye.

With that out of the way...

OG4LIFE said:
You are suggesting that I apply the glue to the shaft/lower link interface?? Wouldn't that make any future disassembly almost impossible?
Click to expand...
Basically - what we're doing is solving a problem that IH was responsible for. Ideally you would machine up a new link with a tighter (and more accurate) tolerance with the pivot axle, along with upper swingarm bearing housings of the same standard. Obviously we can't do that (or it would cost too much to be feasible), which doesn't leave much in the way of solutions. If the upper swingarm bearings are a loose fit, you can't shim them better, you need something that will fill the tiny gap between bearing and bore. If the lower pivot axle is not a perfect slide fit in the link, again there's not much else you can do except use this brilliant loctite product. If you have another idea I'm all ears, but in my experience this fix is easy, cheap, and it works.

Now of course most blanket fixes have their downsides, in this case it's cure time (quite long) and ease of removability. But rest assured things will come apart again, I left my frame set up as described for over a year. It never developed play, but I had to remove the lower link recently to try a BOS Stoy shock... you can thread a bolt into the pivot axle and knock it out, it takes a few hard hits, but it comes out okay.

My advice is, use brand new bearings, pack them with a high quality grease, do the o-ring mod I explained a few pages ago to ensure the bearings last a long time, and then bearing-retain everything together. You shouldn't need to pull it apart again for a long time after that.

It's up to you to figure out if your lower link has the issue described though, you can generally test it by removing the lower link and pivot axle, and testing the fit between the two parts by hand. Any non-rotational movement between the two parts will end up being play, and not only will retaining the two parts together eliminate play, but also prevent rotation thereby eliminating the chance of future wear or play at that point. If there is side-to-side (only) play between the link and bearing races when the bolts are done up, then the problem is different and I would check the bearing bores for paint, check the bearings are seated properly, and if all that checks out, you might need to shim between bearings and link (although as I already said, I've never seen that problem).

I hope that answers some of your questions.

rewster said:
Having a cry? I just commented on your unnecessarily condescending tone, nothing more. I'll take child over dickhead anyday, but hey, to each his own.
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It's interesting that you failed to comment on any of the issues actually relevant to this thread that I wrote about. Like I said, when you're paying me to post, I'll adopt a writing style that's to your liking. Until then either deal with it, or don't read it - simple as that.
 
M

m.m.w.

Chimp
Jun 23, 2009
66
0
Udi said:
There are a number of different products and there might be one that's better than what has already been discussed, 620 caught my eye.
Click to expand...
Not to be anything... :D
But why take such an high strength product if lower strengths already work? Its temperature stability is not needed - and no help for removing.
 
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Udi

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,918
1,213
m.m.w. said:
Not to be anything... :D
But why take such an high strength product if lower strengths already work? Its temperature stability is not needed - and no help for removing.
Click to expand...
Well, I agree with you to be honest, but - one issue with the 609 that I used is that it is a very light fluid and you have to be quite generous with it to get enough where it needs to be (without it dripping everywhere)... whereas you'll notice the 620 mentions "high viscosity".

The other thing is, some people are mentioning a lot of play, 620 works for up to 0.015" (0.38mm) of clearance, whereas 609 is supposed to be up to only 0.005" (0.13mm).

Anyway, the 609 works fine if you are generous with it, I had no problems. So it's up to you.. hope that helps!
 
Salami

Salami

Turbo Monkey
Jul 17, 2003
1,788
121
Waxhaw, NC
Gregor said:
thx for the answer but that is not what i was looking for. The seattube length is from the BB to the seatclamp i think.
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Read the info again. It IS what you are looking for. The numbers on the left is the seat tube length from center of BB to top of the seat tube.

slowmtb said:
If you mean the effective top tube length then it is:

16" frame - 22.5"
17" frame - 23.5"
19" frame - 24.5" ( large )
Click to expand...
 
Sandwich

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
21,813
7,058
borcester rhymes
I'm guessing he's actually looking for the length of the tube, not the measurement listed (ie seatpost insertion). I have a medium frame, but I can measure that tube for you when I get home tonight.
 
Iceman

Iceman

Chimp
Feb 14, 2009
39
0
Sweden
We have to put press on Raingauge now guys, he's either very busy or just very lazy :D
Everyone, on three: RAINGAUGE, ICEMAN WANT'S YOUR PIVOT DRAWINGS, NOW!
 
Udi

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,918
1,213
Wow, that's awesome. You machined the pivots?

I'd love to hear how much for them if you are making more, and are you also making the shock pins?

I'm guessing that's actually an 06 frame judging by the upper link?
 
Iceman

Iceman

Chimp
Feb 14, 2009
39
0
Sweden
Udi said:
Wow, that's awesome. You machined the pivots?

I'd love to hear how much for them if you are making more, and are you also making the shock pins?

I'm guessing that's actually an 06 frame judging by the upper link?
Click to expand...
Closeup pics on the prototype set:
http://www.pinkbike.com/photo/3737276/
http://www.pinkbike.com/photo/3737301/
http://www.pinkbike.com/photo/3737302/

I'm not planning any serial production at the moment, like to see how these will handle the long run first...probably need to anodize or surface treat them in the future as well.

Correct, it was an old, tired and beaten up 06 WC :)
 
Udi

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,918
1,213
If they are 7075t6 and the correct size, I don't see why they wouldn't hold up. I reckon like those angled reducer cup Rick205 made, if you made a batch and sold them at a reasonable price, there'd be a decent market for the hardware since it's all proprietary.

About the pin, what metal did you use if you don't mind me asking? Do you know what the stock ones are made of?
 
Iceman

Iceman

Chimp
Feb 14, 2009
39
0
Sweden
No, these are Alumec pivots, should hold up nicely after anodizing. Yeah you've got a good point there, but I'm not willing to risk anyones health or frame before these have been fitted and ridden. After that we'll see, I'm not negative to help out so don't get me wrong on this one :)

I turned the pin out of stainless type 2333 (S30400), fitted to the standard eyelet bushing. I'm interested to see what will happen, maybe need to replace the eyelet to a polymer bushing if this one develops play. Haven't got a clue what the originals are made out from though, maybe someone reading this knows?
 
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M

m.m.w.

Chimp
Jun 23, 2009
66
0
Why do many Sundays have a seat tube assembled from two tubes? Which frames are these? I haven't found a rule for that.
Same questions about the number of cable mountings on the right cainstay.
 
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