[-BB-]

I went to the Mtg yesterday and the first thing that they talked about was how the Golf Course thing is NOT happening. That it was a blown out of proportion and that they do not even have the staff to identify the issues surrounding the development of a golf course.

Then they added a caveat, "this calendar year".

Lets try to stay on top of this so that it never happens.



Maybe Jeffe or W4S can tell us about the access issues discussed later in the Mtg.

 

[-BB-]

Oh... Jeffe, I saw you at the mtg, but didn't realize that it was you until just now.

I was along the right wall standing next to W4S.

 

[W4S]

I don't think you missed too much.

1) The Golf course may or may not be happening. The issue needs to be watched so that if an Environmental Impact Report is posted, somebody sees it and can rally the appropriate people.

2) The council will write a letter to Aliso Woods stating that they are requesting a review of 'historical' trails. That means some trails that were previously open but have been made illegal (for whatever reason) should eventually be reviewed. When and what will happen obviously remain unknown, but don't hold your breath on ever riding Valhalla legally.

3) It's good to be a boyscout.

4) It's good to be a land developer.

5) No dougnuts like they promised.

 

[Orvan]

Since I work in the land development field...

If the project pencils out for the developer/investors, that they can mitigate potential negative environmental impacts (thru EIR, Focused EIR or Mitigated Negative Declaration), they can process a project into the County or City of jurisdiction, go through 12-18mos of planning, and if they meet or exceeds all local and state laws and design criteria (under subdivision map act), the local jurisdiction will have no choice but to approve it. If they base their project denial on "public outcry" without nexus (connection) to the project's ability to demonstrate that it complies to all local and state design criteria as well as mitigate for all the environmental impacts (like offsite mitigation or onsite habitat creation or restoration), the City/County is doing a "taking." I don't think the City/County will side with "public outcry" if the project does/is following state laws bec "taking" is an expensive lawsuit issue.

The only thing you can do is if the project gets submitted for processing is pay close attention to the environmental documents. It will cause time delays and maybe more money to build the project (due to enviromental mitigations)..and sometimes both the delay and environmental fees/mitigations (EIR takes about 1 yr to prepare and costs a lot) are enough for the developer to reconsider or redesign or at best, withdraw. Otherwise, we can all just cry and watch the project go through due process and be developed within the next 3-4 yrs.

CA Land Use Law rocks!

 

[W4S]

Since I work in the land development field...

Can anybody determine when an EIR is submitted? One councilman was describing how an EIR that negatively impacted an area of concern was never brought to his attention. The developers followed the letter of the law as far as submitting the EIR, but the onus seems to fall on the public to make sure they're aware when and where it's posted.

 

[HarryCallahan]

What Orven posted sounds about right to me as far as private development on private property.

But the issue with Aliso Woods is different. From what I've read, what is being talked about is a private golf course expansion on Public Parkland. If you are talking about public land its a different ballgame, and if you are talking about publicly owned parkland, its really different. There should be a plan in place for the parklands before any decisions are made about dividing up the park or dedicating portions of it to specific uses.
If county officials have been meeting in private with the golf course owners in the absence of an approved park plan to barter away part of the park, that's highly suspect, and possibly illegal. Everyone should be outraged about this, and not just cyclists.

Here's a link to read more: http://www.sharemtb.com/html/events/2004/11-15-04.pdf

Regarding a project EIR:

The EIR would be filed in the jurisdiction where the project is. Whether that is Laguna Beach, South Laguna, Orange County, etc. you folks in the area need to figure that out. EIRs need to be avaialble for public review and comment, sometimes for as little as 30 days, sometimes for longer periods. Usually you can view a copy at the public library or planning department or buy a copy from the developer. But at this point, you are really fighting a rear-guard action, trying to find legal deficiencies in the document, and laying the groundwork for a lawsuit. You don't want to get to that point, you want a groundswell of public outrage to derail this now.

 

[EBasil]

I have three comments, from afar:

1. It's reported in the first post that Staff said the golf course project wouldn't "happen this calendar year", or something like that. Of course, the calendar year ends in 6 weeks, and that doesn't mean the project isn't moving at Full Speed on the desks of the developer's project team, who could still be in contact with the County's entitlement people, setting up the whole project scheme long before a "submittal". This is how large projects are normally done.

2. Orven and Dirty Harry seem spot-on with their description and clarification regarding parkland...and that leads me to my final point:

3. Now is the time to keep building momentum on two fronts: 1) the opening of established trails in the riding area, and 2) the preservation of the open space against enchroachment and/or improperly impacting adjacent development (ie golf courses, or homes with inadequate setbacks from the edge). If the movement arises to "preserve Aliso", it will give credibility to the "open trails" movement, too.

 

[Orvan]

Ebasil is correct on the project timing. A lot of "new" things that come to light have actually been in the planning and review process for some time. All environmental documents on project, by law, are avaliable to the public and should be "posted" --usually at the Planning Dept counter. Public review and comment lasts for30 days (45 can be requested but rarely ever granted). Activists here in SD will write pages upon pages of comments (for delay tactic) and by law, the EIR preparer must address ALL comments. This really doesn't do anything but delay.

If the development is actually going to happen. Maybe it's more proactive to meet with City/County staff and project proponents to see if a compromise can be achieved. Cities love parkland dedication (limits grading and developmental impact and creates more "green pocket" or "common open space"). This is what is called an exaction. So maybe, a group can negotiate with the developer to dedicate an "open space easement" (this is a recorded deed) within the property to connect to existing established trail or open space (connectivity and linkage) for "our support". I mean, if the project is moving forward as planned, might as well try and get something beneficial out of it.

What I'm trying to get at with my lengthy posts is that, if you think a development is coming your way of your trail and that solisciting public outcry is enough to derail it, you are disillusional. There are due processes and rights.

 

[El Jefe]

Oh... Jeffe, I saw you at the mtg, but didn't realize that it was you until just now.

I was along the right wall standing next to W4S.

Hmm, I don't know who W4S is (I mean, I might know him personally, but not as W4S). Man, I know a whole bunch of people by screen name but not real name, a whole bunch by real name and not screen name, and then even more faces and no name. I gotta get my secretary to do some cross-referencing work for me. See you on Saturday AM?

 

[EBasil]

What I'm trying to get at with my lengthy posts is that, if you think a development is coming your way of your trail and that solisciting public outcry is enough to derail it, you are delusional [ ]. There are due processes and rights.

Orven, I agree with you from the "San Diego perspective", but there are two things different about Aliso: it's parkland and it's not in San Diego. Even in Diego, we've had some successes protecting Balboa Park and Los Penasquitos (Camino Ruiz bridge killed, twice). And, north of our sunny borders, even large developments can be derailled by community action: check out Ahmanson Ranch in the San Fernando Valley, adjacent to Cheeseboro Canyon/China Flat...an area now open as multiuse trails and great riding was supposed to be 3500 homes, gas stations and a 7/11.

Come to think of it, Aliso would make a great place for a 7/11 and some golf-course homes...hmm. I may have to rethink this hippie thing.

 

[Grant]

Last night did a couple of things in the big picture.

First off, it let the county know we are not happy. While this, in and of itself won't stop development, it will let them know that the owners of the park land (us) are ready for a fight.

Secondly, it got the bike community to show up, get impassioned and involved which will be very important going forward.

All in all, a good meeting.

We have people looking for the EIR, questioning the amending of the NCCP, checking out the designations of wilderness parks vs urban parks and many other things which I am not prepared to discuss in a public forum.

Thanks for all that showed, you've done good just by being there.

Grant
Pres
SHARE

 

[El Jefe]

Once again a reminder that we're meeting at Top of the World Saturday morning. 9am is when we'll take off for the ride, so starting to gather around 8:45am would be good. Show up, bring family, friends, whatever. The meeting point at which we'll convene is closer to the Alicia entrance than the Canyon Vistas entrance, and we welcome people who would rather not ride (like non-riding spouses and family members) to take a walk into the park. Let's show our support for open lines of communication with the county, and let them know we want to have a say in how our park lands are managed. That means trail access, RMP planning, and information and influence on any possible alternative planse for our parks (for example, a golf course).

Besides the closed trail some will be riding (yes, it is quite technical), there is an open and much less technical trail option that I believe the majority of riders will use to get from the top of Aliso, to the bottom. I hope to see all of you there. Feel free to email me at Jarvis.Jeff@Gmail.com for info.

 

[-BB-]

Hmm, I don't know who W4S is (I mean, I might know him personally, but not as W4S). Man, I know a whole bunch of people by screen name but not real name, a whole bunch by real name and not screen name, and then even more faces and no name. I gotta get my secretary to do some cross-referencing work for me. See you on Saturday AM?

Unfortunatly, no...
I'll be riding in Pisga (North Carolina) next Saturday.

 

[amateur]

Unfortunatly, no...
I'll be riding in Pisga (North Carolina) next Saturday.

Sadly, I too won't be able to attend. Barstow calls. Good luck though

 

[El Jefe]

Sadly, I too won't be able to attend. Barstow calls. Good luck though

Barstow? WTF?

 

[amateur]

Barstow? WTF?

Last MDR desert race. Gotta go chase/pit for my buddy. I'd rather be fighting the good fight though

 

[Fonzie18]

Last MDR desert race. Gotta go chase/pit for my buddy. I'd rather be fighting the good fight though

Blah, you're a poser. Real desert racers pit/race the Baja 1000.

-ALF

 

[W4S]

cross post from another forum detailing current Aliso Viejo concerns. Please take notice and take action.

Let’s stay focused on the goal

There have been a lot of rattled nerves going on between groups and people regarding this Saturday’s protest, the stalled RMP, the rumblings of the Montage, etc….

We need keep focused on what we’re trying to accomplish here and why we were forced to get to this point.

I’d like to reiterate my take on why we got to this point.

Whether people call them illegal trails, closed trails, trespass trails, etc…. We refer to them as Historical Trails.

The bottom line is that when the County took over Aliso-Woods, we lost access to a number of spectacular historical trails that prior to the County’s possession of the park were a staple of the overall trail system there.

Many have been questioning the process to re-open these trails for years, and for years the County has been telling people to be patient and that they would be looked at in due time via a RMP review process.

After years of delay, some bikers finally stood up this summer and began a letter-writing campaign to the County. In response, the County informed us in writing that the process would be started in the fall and we would have the opportunity to be involved and have public comments during the process.

The RMP process was started, but then abruptly stopped without any clear explanation from the County. A few weeks later the news article of the possible encroachment of the Montage golf course expansion into the Aliso wilderness area became public.

Both events so close together became too much for the users to bear, and the result is what was seen at the TAC meeting on Monday night, and will be seen again this Saturday at the Aliso protest.

Keep in mind that even people within the County (Jeff Dickman on the TAC Board) for example are in the dark as to the reason for the delay.

The problem as we see it is that these people who are supposed to be representing our interests, and who clearly know our grievances and concerns with Aliso-Woods should have immediately been all over this delay demanding some answers.

The County has still not come forth with any answers as to the delay of the RMP and still will not communicate to us the reason; so we are now forced to come together as a unified group and request that they open up communication with us on these issues.

The three simple items that I have personally asked the County for are as follows:
1) Please let us know the precise timeframe when the RMP will be re-started
2) Please let us know the precise timeframe when the RMP can be expected to be completed.
3) Please let us (the users) be included in the RMP process from day-one

The last thing I want to happen is to have the County to go through the whole RMP process without our input; and then offer us one or two token public comment periods where we will be showed their proposed map of the park to comment on. In my opinion, by that time it would be a done-deal, and if we were to fight their proposal it would drag on for years. Also the County could then use the excuse that they’ve already spent a fortune on the current study, and the budget or the staff is not available for another review.

All we are asking for is that the County let us help in the process and have a say on these historical trails; and be more open with their communication.

Clearly we also have serious concerns about any proposed golf course expansion into the area, and have grievances with the unequal enforcement and treatment of mountain bikers in relation to the level of enforcement of other user groups in the park. These will also be on the constant topics of discussion.

Please join us on Saturday at 9:00 am at the Top of the World to show support for more communication with the County.

Also remember that if we are unsuccessful in getting the County to open up a dialogue with us after this protest event, there will be plenty of continued opportunities to speak our voice.

The regular TAC meetings as took place this past Monday are one opportunity

Also, the regular Board of Supervisor Meetings where you have the right to 3 minutes time to speak to the Board of Supervisors. Please contact me if you wish to have a copy of the “Orange County Board of Supervisors – Request to Address the Board” form. Fill this form out and bring it to the Board meeting and get your 3 minutes to speak to the board on these issues. I believe forms are also available at the entrance to the meetings.

If they won’t listen to 50 or 60 bikers at the TAC meeting, or to hundreds of bikers this Saturday; maybe they will listen to hundreds of riders showing up to the Board meetings speaking our peace.

Peace

JamR

 

[W4S]

And details of how you can participate locally.

Just in case the county decides to ignore the Saturday protest and chooses not to open communication with us; please start marking your calendars and getting ready to keep the momentum up at the next venues.

Opportunities to be heard:

What: HBP Commission Meetings
When: 1st Thursday of each month at 7:00 pm
Where: The Muth Interpretive Center, Upper Newport
2301 University Drive, Newport Beach

What: Orange County Board of Supervisors Meeting
When: Tuesdays at 9:30 am – Next meeting scheduled for November 23rd
Where: 10 Civic Center Drive, First Floor
Santa Ana

You also have online options to voice your opinions:
HBP Commission – e-mail to Thomas.townsend@rdmd.ocgov.com
The ocparks.com website lists Thomas.townsend@pfrd.ocgov.com but I believe that is the old address. Try both.

Also there is an online option at the County web-site for online opinions.
Go to http://www.oc.ca.gov/supervisors/supervisorsopinion.asp
This takes you directly to the online opinion page. Just follow the instruction and let them hear your voice and opinions.

We have many legal, peaceful and effective avenues to be heard including our voices at the voting polls.

If the TAC meeting of Monday, and this Saturday’s protest do not get them communicating on the RMP and other issues; then plan on joining us for the next logical steps. We cannot be ignored by the people whose jobs exist on the backs of our hard work and taxes forever.

Thanks


Suggestion…..A lot of information is being given out on many of these posts. Make sure you cut and paste them into a document and save them for your future reference. Save all the contact names, numbers, e-mail addresses, web-sites, meeting locations, regular meeting times, etc……so when you get the desire to be heard; you have the tools and the information to do so.

Peace

JamR

 

[HarryCallahan]

JamR,

You mentioned above cross posting from another forum. I've been following/commenting on this on mtbr.com and didn't see it there. What's the other forum? I get the feeling there are a LOT of us out there, not all networked together

Thanks!

 

[El Jefe]

OK, here's an email I sent to many of the participants who are on my email list:

Well, things are coming together quite well. We have newspaper
coverage, interest from 2 tv stations, and the pledge of about 200
mountain bikers- perhaps even more to show up on Saturday morning. If
we have only 100, it's a success, but if we could have 300? Wow.
What a statement that would be.

County supervisors are very interested in our activities and know that
we are willing to show up en-mass to speak up for our rights as
taxpayers, and lobby for responsible trail management. I've been in
contact with park Rangers at Aliso, and while they cannot officially
comment on the ride, and I can't guarantee anything, I will tell you
that they are aware of our activity and are not indicating an effort
to stop or to cite riders. Again, I won't guarantee that those who
choose to ride the closed trail will be riding without any risk, but
I'll say the risk indicatons at this time are extremely low. This
should be good news to some who were considering riding the closed
trail but were worried about a fine.

Remember however that the trail we'll be riding has quite a technical
last few hundred yards, including some exposure and some very steep
sections. If you are not a fairly strong technical rider, by all
means, choose the less technical open trail. You are riding at your
own risk, and only you know your limits. To be honest, I don't care
which you choose, just show up and bring friends.

So once again, 9am is ride time from Top of the World in Aliso.
Entrances to Aliso and Wood Canyons wilderness Park are located off of
Canyon Vistas Rd in Aliso Viejo, off of Alicia Parkway just south of
Aliso Creek Rd, or at Top of the World in Laguna Beach located at the
end of Alta Laguna Rd. Check out SoCalmtb.com trails section for
Aliso and Wood Canyons to get specific directions for those coming
from out of town. (Alicia Pkwy is an exit off the 5 in Laguna Hills
just for reference).

Try to get to the park between 8am and 8:15am as it will take some time
to climb from the bottom of the park. Allow yourself as much as 45
minutes to reach top of the World unless you plan to drive up through
Laguna Beach and park there.

Again, I thank all of you for your support. Our voices are being
heard by the county. Any questions, feel free to email me. I check
email about 14 times a day.

Invite friends and neighbors. Spread the word. Thanks
-Jeff Jarvis