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Thinking of getting rid of Karpiel, and building a 204? Thoughts?

DLo

Monkey
Feb 26, 2003
688
0
South Bay Area, CA
The Karpiel Disco itself is a long story. 204 questions are at the bottom of this post for those who don't want to read my ramblings. ;) And no, this isn't another bash Jan thread, there's plenty of those anyway. I've gotten to the point where I could ghostride it off into the Grand Canyon and laugh at it, but I ain't tried so hard to just give up. But I think I've learnt my lesson on dealin with these types of companies, sometimes it just isn't worth it. I love this bike to death, when it works correctly that is. Saw it in 99 at Carlmont, and said one day I will have myself that bike. And here I am, but I'm pooped. Long story short, I have the wrong linkage plates on my Disco, which is over-leveraging the shock. I've blown out my Fox at least 3 times in less than one year.

I do have a hookup now for the right plates (you know who you are, thank you for your help so far.) I'm hoping to get them soon, and find out if I can put that beautiful Avalanche shock on my bike. Thought I might add, Avy has some awesome CS. Helped me grind down the metal bushings to make it fit with my frame, I think my frame got pushed in as the fox bushings wore in. Craig has been extremely helpful in trying to assist in getting everything to work correctly.

I'm at a point where I have no idea what to do. I'm determined to wait until I get the linkage plates and see if I can make my bike run the way it's supposed to, but I'm beginning to take a pessimistic attitude towards it. This bike seems perfect for me, at one point I had it to 42 pounds which isn't very heavy in my eyes. And that's with a Monster T and a DeeMax wheelset, doesn't strike me as that light of a build.

I guess what I want to ask is, what should I do? I've spent so much time and money on this project that it's almost stupid to just sell it the way it is right now. But I'm at a point where I haven't ridden the bike much, and it's been messed up for over a month. And in the past month, my friends have ridden the bike more than I have. I've gone through chainguide after chainguide to find out what's worked and what hasn't, (I should have just listened to dhtahoe in the first place) spent enough money on that Fox where I could nearly have paid off an Avy if I had just done it initially, and spent countless nights throwing wrenches and cussing out of frustration. Or should I bite the bullet, finish off the job, and keep it? From different posts here and there, I'm getting a bit skeptical about the future of Karpiel itself.. I don't want to break something some day and then have nobody to goto.

I've done alot of research on the 204, the other frame that I've always had my eyes on. Seems like everybody thinks it's burly, weight is low, pedals on average, and is heavy. Couldn't seem to find weight specs on the frame though. And yes, I'm a weight weenie in this aspect because I'm a weakling. What I didn't find on the 204 are big complaints. Has anybody had any bad complaints on that frame? How I ride: I've used my Karpiel for everything after not having the funds to build a hardtail. Some short XC rides, had some fun at a local DS course, urban, road, everything. I've also read that the Tomac won't take anything lower than a 40T chainring, which kind of strikes me as a problem - I usually ride up most of the up to get to the down. I've got a 38T on the Karpiel right now, and it's not too bad.

Thanks for readin. It's been a long day :dead: Would appreciate your opinions, so voice them! :)
 

Brian HCM#1

MMMMMMMMM BEER!!!!!!!!!!
Sep 7, 2001
32,119
378
Bay Area, California
Boy Darren thats a tough one, the older Disco's are definatly more finiky to work on, hopefully the different links will make a difference, I've heard a lot of positive things about the 204, but never ridden one. I maybe one of the last ones to really get excited to ride a Karpiel (sorry people I like they way they ride) But do understand its difficult dealing with someone with bad business practices. Like I've said before, if you need any help setting up your bike, I'll be more than happy to help you. Maybe you can consider a 02 or newer Disco.
 

DLo

Monkey
Feb 26, 2003
688
0
South Bay Area, CA
heh, you are not the last one to get excited to ride a Karpiel. I've only ridden the Disco (rode one another one but don't know what year, it was a while back too). I love the way that bike rides when it's in shape. Couldn't wait to bring it to Northstar, but now I'm not sure if that's going to happen.. and that's why I built it. I'm fairly certain I'll keep it long enough to find out if I can at least put it back to it's original state and see how it rides then. What I'm probably worried most is future CS though.. I'm not a hard rider, but I'm not a smooth rider either, which = broken parts. And thanks for your help on those Hopes, I'm positive those aren't somethin that I'll be givin up on anytime soon :D:devil:

It's sad lookin in the garage and watching that machine sit there. Used to be me sitting in the garage and drooling all over it :monkey:
 

DHS

Friendly Neighborhood Pool Boy
Apr 23, 2002
5,094
0
Sand, CA
now is it that you can trade for the 204 or get one for cheap?

cause there's other DH frames that are lighter then the 204 and maybe better or what not for cheaper.
 

360

Monkey
Apr 17, 2003
227
1
Edinburgh
I love my 204, she works very well , corners very well and the weight really isn't an issue because its so low down.

Alot of people seem to think that because the 204s design hasn't evolved in the last 4 years that its not a good bike anymore:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I actually find mine pedals very well to.

The only real issue with the bike is the rear hub , theres only one that fits and its just ok , if you ride in muddy conditions alot , it will need attention, i usually service mine a couple of times over winter then dont touch it over summer.
 

DLo

Monkey
Feb 26, 2003
688
0
South Bay Area, CA
Originally posted by DHS
now is it that you can trade for the 204 or get one for cheap?

cause there's other DH frames that are lighter then the 204 and maybe better or what not for cheaper.
No, I haven't even started looking really for the 204. I like the 204, seems like a burly bike.

How hard is it to tear apart the edco, 360?
 

go-ride.com

Monkey
Oct 23, 2001
548
6
Salt Lake City, UT
The Tomac 204 is a really nice riding bike. Good geometry, progressive linkage, decent pedaling, strong frame. The Edco hub is the killer. No one else is making a hub to fit that bike and I can't seem to get any support for Edco hubs anymore.

Hadley has said that they could make a hub for the bike, but I couldn't convince Tomac to send a frame to Hadley to get the fit and sizing correct.
 

360

Monkey
Apr 17, 2003
227
1
Edinburgh
Edco hub requires a slimline 22mm socket to crack it open , but once you got that its real simple.

Hadley has said that they could make a hub for the bike, but I couldn't convince Tomac to send a frame to Hadley to get the fit and sizing correct.
would they need a frame? how about the edco hub with a thru axle( i have these spare) if so i'd happilly donate mine for the greater good.
 

go-ride.com

Monkey
Oct 23, 2001
548
6
Salt Lake City, UT
Originally posted by 360
Edco hub requires a slimline 22mm socket to crack it open , but once you got that its real simple.



would they need a frame? how about the edco hub with a thru axle( i have these spare) if so i'd happilly donate mine for the greater good.
Opening the hub is not the problem. The problem is that the ratchet ring breaks and could only be fixed at Edco. This did not have a tool to remove/install ratchet rings that they could send to dealers or even Tomac.

They wanted a full frame so that they could make an axle and be sure the hub was centered properly in the asym swingarm. They only needed to borrow a frame, they didn't want to keep it.
 

JRogers

talks too much
Mar 19, 2002
3,785
1
Claremont, CA
I have a 204 but have not ridden it enough to really give a detailed account. I can help you a bit, though.

The frame is really, really burly. It's at least as heavy as, say, a V10 of equal size, probably more so. Never weighed it but I would guess in the 14-15 lb range for a small. The weight is really low, though. That and the steep HA make for a pretty nimble bike given the weight. The steeper angle would probably make it a better choice for someone who plans on doing some DS and trails and not just DH on it. Pedaling is about average. Suspension performance is above average with a similar fox-equipped single pivot from what I've found. Probably due to the progressive linkage and the stiffness. Really stiff due to big pivots, big bolts and a wide BB and hub.

The 2 concerns you might have: the hub (which has been discussed) and the chainring/guide issue. Right now, I have a 39T on there but I think normal min is a 40T. Naturally, this will probably cause the guide rollers and such to wear a bit faster. You might be able to run some other guide combo but I am unsure.
 

DLo

Monkey
Feb 26, 2003
688
0
South Bay Area, CA
Cool. If I were to get one sometime this summer, is there any chance that I could possibly send the frame in to Hadley so they could make a hub for it? I never heard of Edco until I started lookin at the 204's. I thought they used to come with Hadleys but maybe I was mistaken
 

T3h1337r

Chimp
Sep 15, 2006
55
0
Nor Cal
Ok, on the rear hubs. Shimano makes a saint with a 165 rear 12mm thru. Get the adapters for 20mm. Ringle makes a 165 rear, also with adapters up to 20mm. King makes a 165 10mm with adapters. Hadley makes a 165mm with 20mm thru and a 165 with 12mm and adapters, theres a whole handful of hubs that will fit now adays.

I just ordered a 204 for 500 frame only. Its been used 5 times. What I heard is it rocked. I will seal the hub up. Put some sealed cartrige bearings in (after the hub is machined a bit on the inside courtesy of Phil Wood :) god I love companies that are 10 min from my house), and will make a rear shock cover out of coroplast. I heard its bad in the mud due to the shock being basically right in the line of fire. Instead of using pantyhose or stockings to cover it I thog stockings over the shock plus a plate of mulded coroplast which can be zip tied would work. I even thot about getting a 3inch inner tube and wrapping the shock up.

Ok, the only ? I have. I use a 36-40 tooth dual slalom mrp. Which I had to use on my azonic Eliminator. It has the fixed not complete inner ring, and a fixed outer )fixed to the crank arm (profiles.). Would that work. I have no problem running a 40, I just happen to have a 39t in right now. Also I needa measure, Im hoping my spindle will be long enuf. 100 mm is wide. So Im really hoping my profile spindle will fit, as I dont want to go back to isis, or anything aluminum. I like my profiles and will probably die riding them. :)

If that works Im set to ride asap. I just dont want to get the frame, rip sh!t off of my azonic and then have to put it back on my azonic until I get a new part. Let me know what you think. Other than that I dont think I have any questions. Just the guide. I figured since the ringle that came stock on it worked mine should also due to the the fixed ring and open part on the fixed part.

Also I heard running a 24 in the rear makes it absolutely insanely stiff. Im going to run my 24 mag 30 on the rear. Insane width and should be bomb proof with a 165 20mm setup. Im just worried about the hub. O well. I could always buy some new forks etc and strap em on the 204 when I get em. But I love my broken in 888's sooooooooo much.
 

dropmachine

Turbo Monkey
Sep 7, 2001
2,922
10
Your face.
Are you a massochist or something? Why bother with an old frame with 0 support and stupid proprietary parts when there are dozens of other frames that are lighter, just as strong and easy to maintain. Oh yeah, the companies are in business too, thats always a plus.

I jsut don't see the point.
 

SPDR

Monkey
Apr 21, 2006
180
0
Engerland
I thought the shocks (Marz? IIRC) were also real hard to get spares for as they were only ever fitted to this bike.

I would also have to question the logic of going to one obscure frame to another. Why not just buy a PDC 825? It's virtually the same bike but current.
 

seismic

Turbo Monkey
Dec 22, 2003
3,254
0
South East Asia
I agree with the bunch. I ran a Karpiel and I am ok satisfied with it. However, it has taken a lot of time, money and contacts to be able to get parts. If I was to replace the frame I would get something new which is still made and where you have a chance of getting some kind of CS.
 

dump

Turbo Monkey
Oct 12, 2001
8,194
4,419
Are you a massochist or something? Why bother with an old frame with 0 support and stupid proprietary parts when there are dozens of other frames that are lighter, just as strong and easy to maintain. Oh yeah, the companies are in business too, thats always a plus.

I jsut don't see the point.
big ditto here.

It seems like you're getting yourself in the same boat... yet again!
 

DLo

Monkey
Feb 26, 2003
688
0
South Bay Area, CA
I was kind of startled to surf RM this afternoon and find one of my old threads back up top. I have a newer Karpiel now that Brian helped me work out. Works great. Wasn't tomac still around 2 years ago? I did the math before I ended up with the newer Karpiel and decided it wasn't worth it to get the 204 anyway since it was older and heavier. I've since wised up :P
 

blue

boob hater
Jan 24, 2004
10,160
2
california
Shimano makes a saint with a 165 rear 12mm thru. Get the adapters for 20mm. King makes a 165 10mm with adapters.
No they don't (at least not aftermarket).

The only aftermarket makers of 165mm rear hubs are Hadley, Ringle, and DT Swiss. Everyone else is OEM (if they even do).

However, this thread is so old it doesn't matter.
 

T3h1337r

Chimp
Sep 15, 2006
55
0
Nor Cal
Tomac is in buisness last time I checked. LOL. Always has been. They never went out of buisness. That right there makes me thing you dont know what you are talking about. The tomac mag 204 is probably one of the better frames on the market. It compares to a demo 9 in rear stiffness and it dosent even have seat stays let alone double seat stays.

Name some better frames . Banshee heavier, Orange heavier, Kona just sucks (Frames break) (O and their huckers, ride new frames almost weekly), Specialized are the axis Nazi powers of the bike industry, along with shimano. Da bomb is cheesy. There really isnt a whole lot of killer bikes for the money. Maybe an azonic eliminator ro eliminator 2. thats probably it for low cost ridigity
 

T3h1337r

Chimp
Sep 15, 2006
55
0
Nor Cal
"No they don't (at least not aftermarket).

The only aftermarket makers of 165mm rear hubs are Hadley, Ringle, and DT Swiss. Everyone else is OEM (if they even do).

However, this thread is so old it doesn't matter."



It doesnt matter if the thread is old. There is still many people with mag 204's and disco vantes running them. Still looking for info.

Blue, the fact that Ive machined parts for all these companies, and rode their crap for so long, they do make them. You need to do a little home work.
 

coma13

Turbo Monkey
Feb 14, 2006
1,082
0
I love it when people bring up super old threads to answer questions....
 

blue

boob hater
Jan 24, 2004
10,160
2
california
Blue, the fact that Ive machined parts for all these companies, and rode their crap for so long, they do make them. You need to do a little home work.
I'd really love to see them. If Shimano made a 165mm Saint rear hub I would've had it 6 months ago (I have an IH SGS with 165 spacing).

When you say "make them", do you mean "They made one proto to try it and didn't make anything else", or do you mean "They're readily available from a distributor". Give us some links.

That's what I thought.

:ban:
 

T3h1337r

Chimp
Sep 15, 2006
55
0
Nor Cal
I said its an adapter. Not a standard 20mm thru hub. Yes, you can find adapters for the shimano hubs. Look around. Im not going to bother to search through all my links. I just got phil wood bearings put in my edko rear hub, and the inside machined out for profile cassette internals. Should not be any problems anymore :).

Im still looking into what chainguides people have fit on the 204 tho.
 

usparc2

Chimp
May 7, 2007
10
0
Seems to be a lot of mis-information about the Edco hubs. Edco is now part of Sapim. Their customer support is excellent. I've had a pair of Edco's on a pair of 204's for a couple years, and every time I've called them, they've been excellent about everything, quick, and reasonably priced.
The 204 really is one of the best frames ever made. Nothing else I've ridden is as stiff, or as indestructable over time.
The biggest thing you can do for an edco, to keep it together forever, is to use swimming pool pump grease on the bearings, it's a light/water proof grease (Finish Line realized this, and markets it as a bike grease--peel the label off the tube, and it's White Lightning Swimming Pool pump grease)
Anyway..
An easy solution to keeping the shock clean is to get one of the little mini-fenders which specialized sells for the Enduros.. , cut the mounting tab off of it, and use the zip tie holes to just zip tie it to the swing arm.. I have used one like that for a year, works perfectly, cost me 5$ to do, and didn't require any fabrication....
--I've got a bunch of 204 stuff around if anyone needs it, and am selling a frame as well in a couple weeks...
 

DHS

Friendly Neighborhood Pool Boy
Apr 23, 2002
5,094
0
Sand, CA
did you do a search or something? this thread is ancient
(look at the post dates)
 

karpi

Monkey
Apr 17, 2006
904
0
Santiasco, Chile
my opinion would be, try getting a new Karpi, it's way better then any 204... lighter, superior suspension (thats if you mix it with a good shock... say avalanche), good pedaling, nice geo, and super fast, the 204 is just plain heavy and the rear hub is a nasty issue, if you want something newer, look into the shocker dh, never ridden one, but the system is like any karpiel so should be a nice feeling hehe
 

DHS

Friendly Neighborhood Pool Boy
Apr 23, 2002
5,094
0
Sand, CA
my opinion would be, try getting a new Karpi, it's way better then any 204... lighter, superior suspension (thats if you mix it with a good shock... say avalanche), good pedaling, nice geo, and super fast, the 204 is just plain heavy and the rear hub is a nasty issue, if you want something newer, look into the shocker dh, never ridden one, but the system is like any karpiel so should be a nice feeling hehe
for some weird reason, i don't think it took DLo 3 years to figure out what new frame he needed.

close this thread
 

T3h1337r

Chimp
Sep 15, 2006
55
0
Nor Cal
why do people bring up old threads just to offer "advice"?
I know this is old again, but because people still run the 204. Its good for others to have the info.

My bike is still going and thriving. I have a roco rear. Goldtec makes a replacement hub, and phil wood has made me replacement bearings for the linkage (they are local to me). All this bull**** about proprietary parts is garbage. You just have to get stuff made if you want it bad enough. So what if you can't slam any part onto the bike... get it made if you like it bad enough. I like mine enough. It runs better than anything else I have tried. Simple.
 
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T3h1337r

Chimp
Sep 15, 2006
55
0
Nor Cal
did you do a search or something? this thread is ancient
(look at the post dates)
so what... people still use the 204, even in this day of march 2009. Its IMPORTANT for people to be able to get info with this stuff and not just see ancient dead posts. I'm sure there are more still using their mags. I'll probably be on mine until it breaks. I'm guessing 2015 will be when I get a new bike. Until then shhhh yourself with the old thread crap as these bikes are still thriving, lasting, and many still needing info to figure this crap out... just like I had to. With websites changing, data being lost, its important for new info to stay up and help others out.

after all, isnt helping others out what forums are all about?

my opinion would be, try getting a new Karpi, it's way better then any 204... lighter, superior suspension (thats if you mix it with a good shock... say avalanche), good pedaling, nice geo, and super fast, the 204 is just plain heavy and the rear hub is a nasty issue, if you want something newer, look into the shocker dh, never ridden one, but the system is like any karpiel so should be a nice feeling hehe

yea the frame is heavy, but it has lasted nearly a decade in most cases. Weight normally ='s strength. I'd like to see anything other than a karpiel or a select few others last this long.


The shocker dh was a joke, the karpiels are sketch until re released... which they have been in small numbers. I'm still debating on the new tomac primer, or a new army. We will see which way I go. Most likely a primer.
 

davep

Turbo Monkey
Jan 7, 2005
3,276
0
seattle
indignant, thread dig (X2)...........Sweet!!!!


No one cares about your Tomac!!!
 
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