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this is why Civilians should stay the hell out of operational planning

eric strt6

Resident Curmudgeon
Sep 8, 2001
23,428
13,735
directly above the center of the earth
I hold these @ssholes responsible for putting our guys in harms way and getting more people hurt or killed that ever was necessary

http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/news/special_packages/iraq/archive/5472430.htm

Rumsfeld's strategy under fire as war risks become increasingly apparent
By JOSEPH L. GALLOWAY
Knight Ridder Newspapers

WASHINGTON - Five days into the war, the optimistic assumptions of the Pentagon's civilian war planners have yet to be realized, the risks of the campaign are becoming increasingly apparent and some current and retired military officials are warning that there may be a mismatch between Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld's strategy and the force he's sent to carry it out.

The outcome of the war isn't in doubt: Iraq's forces are no match for America and its allies. But, so far, defeating them is proving to be harder, and it could prove to be longer and costlier in American and Iraqi lives than the architects of the American war plan expected.

And if weather, Iraqi resistance, chemical weapons or anything else turned things suddenly and unexpectedly sour, the backup force, the Army's 4th Infantry Division, is still in Texas with its equipment sailing around the Arabian peninsula.

Despite the aerial pounding they've taken, it's not clear that Saddam Hussein, his lieutenants or their praetorian guard are either shocked or awed. Instead of capitulating, some regular Iraqi army units are harassing American supply lines. Contrary to American hopes - and some officials' expectations - no top commander of Saddam Hussein's Republican Guard has capitulated. Even some ordinary Iraqis are greeting advancing American and British forces as invaders, not as liberators.

"This is the ground war that was not going to happen in (Rumsfeld's) plan," said a Pentagon official. Because the Pentagon didn't commit overwhelming force, "now we have three divisions strung out over 300-plus miles and the follow-on division, our reserve, is probably three weeks away from landing."

Asked Monday about concerns that the coalition force isn't big enough, Defense Department spokesperson Victoria Clarke replied: "... most people with real information are saying we have the right mix of forces. We also have a plan that allows it to adapt and to scale up and down as needed."

Knowledgeable defense and administration officials say Rumsfeld and his civilian aides at first wanted to commit no more than 60,000 American troops to the war on the assumption that the Iraqis would capitulate in two days.

Intelligence officials say Rumsfeld, his deputy Paul Wolfowitz and other Pentagon civilians ignored much of the advice of the Central Intelligence Agency and the Defense Intelligence Agency in favor of reports from the Iraqi opposition and from Israeli sources that predicted an immediate uprising against Saddam once the Americans attacked.

The officials said Rumsfeld also made his disdain for the Army's heavy divisions very clear when he argued about the war plan with Army Gen. Tommy Franks, the allied commander. Franks wanted more and more heavily armed forces, said one senior administration official; Rumsfeld kept pressing for smaller, lighter and more agile ones, with much bigger roles for air power and special forces.

"Our force package is very light," said a retired senior general. "If things don't happen exactly as you assumed, you get into a tangle, a mismatch of your strategy and your force. Things like the pockets (of Iraqi resistance) in Basra, Umm Qasr and Nasariyah need to be dealt with forcefully, but we don't have the forces to do it."

"The Secretary of Defense cut off the flow of Army units, saying this thing would be over in two days," said a retired senior general who has followed the evolution of the war plan. "He shut down movement of the 1st Cavalry Division and the1st Armored Division. Now we don't even have a nominal ground force."

He added ruefully: "As in Operation Anaconda in Afghanistan, we are using concepts and methods that are entirely unproved. If your strategy and assumptions are flawed, there is nothing in the well to draw from."

In addition, said senior administration officials, speaking on the condition of anonymity, Rumsfeld and his civilian aides rewrote parts of the military services' plans for shipping U.S. forces to the Persian Gulf, which they said resulted in a number of mistakes and delays, and also changed plans for calling up some reserve and National Guard units.

"There was nothing too small for them to meddle with," said one senior official. "It's caused no end of problems, but I think we've managed to overcome them all."

Robin Dorff, the director of national security strategy at the U.S. Army War College in Carlisle, Pa., said three things have gone wrong in the campaign:

_A "mismatch between expectations and reality."

_The threat posed by irregular troops, especially the 60,000 strong Saddam Fedayeen, who are harassing the 300-mile-long supply lines crucial to fueling and resupplying the armor units barreling toward Baghdad.

_The Turks threatening to move more troops into northern Iraq, which could trigger fighting between Turks and Kurds over Iraq's rich northern oilfields.

Dorff and others said that the nightmare scenario is that allied forces might punch through to the Iraqi capital and then get bogged down in house-to-house fighting in a crowded city.

"If these guys fight and fight hard for Baghdad, with embedded Baathists stiffening their resistance at the point of a gun, then we are up the creek," said one retired general.

Dr. John Collins, a retired Army colonel and former chief researcher for the Library of Congress, said the worst scenario would be sending American troops to fight for Baghdad. He said every military commander since Sun Tzu, the ancient Chinese strategist, has hated urban warfare.

"Military casualties normally soar on both sides; innocent civilians lose lives and suffer severe privation; reconstruction costs skyrocket," Collins said, adding that fighting for the capital would cancel out the allied advantages in air and armor and reduce it to an Infantry battle house to house, street by street.

Another retired senior officer said the Apache Longbow helicopter gunships that were shot up badly Sunday had been sent on a deep strike against Republican Guard divisions guarding the approaches to Baghdad. He and others said the Apaches shouldn't have been used that way.

"They should have been preceded by suppression of enemy air defenses," the general said. "There should be a barrage of long-range artillery and MLRS (Multiple-Launch Rocket System) rockets before you send the Apaches in."

Reports from the field said virtually every one of the estimated 30 to 40 Apache Longbows came back shot full of holes, as the Iraqis fired everything they had at them. One did not come back, and its two-man crew apparently was taken prisoner.

"Every division should have two brigades of MLRS launches for a campaign like this," the general said. "They do not, and the question in the end will be why they don't."

He said the Air Force was bombing day and night, but its strikes have so far failed to produce the anticipated capitulation and uprising by the Iraqi people.

One senior administration official put it this way: "'Shock and Awe' is Air Force bull---!"

Dorff said: "Expectations were raised for something that might be quick and relatively painless. What we're seeing in the first few days probably ought to dispel that. Part of the problem is that expectations were raised that we would march in and everybody would surrender - sort of the four-day scenario of 1991."

Instead of streams of surrendering Iraqi soldiers, the American and British forces report that they are holding around 2,000 enemy prisoners.
 

eric strt6

Resident Curmudgeon
Sep 8, 2001
23,428
13,735
directly above the center of the earth
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=S0MARKOI5EVWMCRBAE0CFEY?type=topNews&storyID=2447315

Rumsfeld, Myers Defend U.S. War Plan Amid Criticism
Tue March 25, 2003 04:21 PM ET

By Will Dunham
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and America's top military officer defended U.S. war plans in Iraq on Tuesday amid criticism from many experts who question the size and punch of the invasion force being used.

Air Force Gen. Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, called the U.S. strategy "a brilliant plan" that has thrust invading troops more than 200 miles into Iraqi territory -- "on the doorstep of Baghdad" -- in less than a week of hostilities.

Rumsfeld added, "I must say I also have a feeling that the American people have a very good sense of what's going on there. It may be that some analysts might not."

Analysts told Reuters U.S. military leaders may have erred in using an invasion force that is too small and not packing enough armor while leaving critical forces at home.

They also questioned why ground troops were rushed into Iraq without allowing U.S. and British air power first to clobber Iraqi military targets, why Pentagon officials assumed Iraq's military would surrender in droves and why no sizable invasion force was inserted in the north.

Iraqi forces have inflicted some casualties and caused numerous problems for U.S. and British troops in southern Iraq. The U.S. force approaching Baghdad, while better equipped and supported by massive air power, may be badly outnumbered by Iraqi ground forces in a looming battle for Baghdad.

"In the big scope of things, we're on track, we're on plan. We think we have just the right forces for what we need to do now. We remind people that forces are still flowing to the region," Myers told reporters.

Some within the military argued in vain for a larger ground force, one more in line with the approximately half a million troops deployed for the 1991 Gulf War. Rumsfeld, an advocate of lighter and swifter war-fighting relying heavily on technology and special operations, favored a much smaller force. The current force is about half the size of the 1991 force.

'REALLY A GAMBLE'

Ivo Daalder, an analyst with the Brookings Institution, said the Pentagon leadership embraced a high-risk strategy.

"It was really a gamble that they went into with open eyes, because every single military expert, including those in uniform today, were saying you need more troops," he said.

"And the problem with high-risk strategies is that you don't have a Plan B," Daalder added.

The Army's 4th Infantry Division, its most modern fighting force, remains at Fort Hood in Texas despite getting deployment orders in January. The division and its support units total up to 40,000 troops. The 5,000-strong and highly mobile 3d Armored Cavalry Regiment, which received deployment orders in February, remains at Fort Carson in Colorado.

"You really are missing the 3d Armored Cavalry Regiment, you're missing the 4th Infantry Division in terms of forward-deployed armor," said former Pentagon and State Department official Anthony Cordesman, an analyst at the Center for Strategic and International Studies.

Cordesman said about 400 U.S. tanks are moving north toward Baghdad, but that the invading forces "are short something on the order of 250 or more tanks because the 4th Infantry and the 3d Armored Calvary are not yet deployed."

The 4th Infantry Division had been slated to deploy to Turkey and invade northern Iraq from there in order to force the Iraqis to fight on multiple fronts. But Turkey denied permission for U.S. troops to launch such an invasion from its soil. Ships carrying the division's equipment bobbed off the coast of Turkey for weeks before recently being sent through the Suez Canal headed for the Gulf.

The troops of the 4th Infantry Division and the 3d Armored Cavalry Regiment are expected to fly to the region this week.

"Counting on going to Turkey before you get permission made no sense at all," said former assistant secretary of defense Lawrence Korb of the Council on Foreign Relations.

No sizable invasion force is present in the north, enabling the Iraqis to concentrate on the advance from the south.

AIR POWER OVER ARMOR

Michael Vickers, a former U.S. Army Green Beret soldier and now an analyst with the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments, said the overwhelming might of U.S. air power would compensate for any shortness of armor on the ground.

"It's a bold plan and I think there's probably more than sufficient force for what they're trying to do. Air power more than makes up for lack of armor," Vickers said.

Analyst Michael O'Hanlon of the Brookings Institution said U.S. forces would be better off with one more division and perhaps should have delayed the war for a month.

"Having said that, I don't think we're fundamentally in a weak position. I think we have 80 percent of the forces we need. ... I think there's a little too much criticism of the strategy. This is a pretty muscular force," O'Hanlon said.

Cordesman said the land invasion was launched perhaps prematurely without the necessary "air preparation." The 100-hour land phase of the 1991 Gulf War followed five weeks of blistering air attacks against Iraqi targets.

"This is a force that entails a lot of risks, and those risks were compounded not by intelligence and military decisions but by political decisions that the Iraqis were going to be far less willing to fight than so far has been the case, and that the south would be far more willing to support us," Cordesman said.

(With additional reporting by Charles Aldinger)
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
24
SF, CA
Originally posted by Serial Midget
I am not qualified to second guess strategic war decisions... :confused:
neither is rumsfeld.

but I would think all those colonel's, general's, and analyst's are qualified...
 

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
5,673
2
Feeling the lag
I'm no military strategist but as this is a debating forum here are my thoughts.

I would have used the biggest and most powerful force I could. It seems to me that the biggest disadvantage is $ cost but lives could be saved. In military history the bigger force normally wins (all else being equal) so stack the odds as much in your favour as you can. I would also expect enemy forces to consider surrender sooner if they are outnumbered greatly (why fight if you know you absolutely cannot win?)

I've also never understood the Airborne Cavalry concept used in Vietnam where they dropped troops in, fought over territory and then lifted them out again. How can you win a land war without taking territory permanently?
 

DRB

unemployed bum
Oct 24, 2002
15,242
0
Watchin' you. Writing it all down.
I have to disagree with a number of points in both of these articles.

First, you certainly could have stuffed twice the number of combat troops into Iraq. But things get sketchy. In the first Gulf War supplies lines were never an issue. The vast majority of the forces that were moving were moving parallel to the main axis of combat. While their supply lines were long, it was planned to hook up with forwarding moving troops very quickly, thus reducing the risk and length of time they were going to rely on long drawn out supply chains. Those troops that were moving forward were doing so only to get into Kuwait and stop. Their supply lines were virtually nonexistant.

The current model has the units of the miltiary spread out over 300 miles. Supplying those forces is a logistical nightmare. I believe that the those supply lines are strong but if you were to add more combat troops to the mix, it would become even more difficult to keep that supply up. The current mix keeps movement, while slow, constant. Only recently did US troops actually stop to consolidate their supply lines.

The MLRS (multi launch rocket system) is an impressive weapons system. However, it does have issues. First the most devistating rocket it uses is the M270 which involves 644 submuntions. The problem that occurs for US troops when involved with this become unexploded ordance. Unfortunately not all of these things go up, creating a hazard for forces as they move thru areas attacked by these muntions.

The issue of the 4th ID and waiting was also brought up. The orginial plan was to bring the 4th ID thru Turkey and start a two front campaign. However, political troubles left this plan out the window. The strategy was sound as was the planning. Now while they could have waited for the 4th to work its way around and be unloaded but at what expense. A month of time which puts this show into mid April. All of a sudden summer becomes an issue. Fighting in all of the equipment that the average US combat troop is carrying around is hard enough in 70F but at 100F it becomes next to impossible.

One or both articles mention the lack of "streams of Iraqi prisoners", and act as if that is some sort of problem. Those troops were there and now they are not. So what happened to them? They could be hiding with their equipment waiting for the right moment to strike out at the exposed supply train. But more likely is that these troops did just simply fade away into the desert.

And on top of all of this are political considerations. Before anyone starts, "that's the point the military should decide.....blah blah blah", your point is moot. Anything the military does is not done in a vacuum. There are real limitations on what and what not they can do to meet the mission at hand. Certainly, using air power, you could bomb every square inch of land in Iraq but that does not accomplish the mission.

Even in these criticisms are a number of "political" issues. Rumsfeld does want to make over the US military, which has a lot of defense contractors very nervous. He is (has been) in favor of lighter, more easily moved forces over the current format. His point is that the US is still designed to fight a major land war against a foe the size of the USSR. There are no more of those, that we would likely find ourselves in major land warfare. It is much more likely you will find ourselves in actions like Afganistan, where lighter more mobile units have a better advantage. Many of the folks quoted work for defense industry as consultants and are looking to protect their own hides.

There have been a number of fierce battles already, probably more than most people realized there were going to be. But look what the outcome has been of each one of these. In each of these the Coalition was able to bring about superior firepower, technology and training to defeat the enemy.

This invasion, war, campaign or whatever you wish to call it has gone fairly well. Coalition forces are not experiencing (and I hate to say this) undue combat casualities. If you factor out the 8 Marines killed in the fake surrender and the 4 or 5 "killed"(executed) by the Iraqis, the total deaths are under 15 (or at least right now they are). Each death is lamentable but I am unsure how more troops would reduce that figure.

No doubt this was a "bold" plan that left for a smaller margin of error. To this point certainly mistakes have been made and things could have been differently but the extent of those differences is not that great from what we have now.
 

Damn True

Monkey Pimp
Sep 10, 2001
4,015
3
Between a rock and a hard place.
No plan ever survives first contact.

The 2nd ID (the most technologically advanced fighting force on the planet) will be arriving this weekend in Kuait. They were supposed to do their thing via Turkey, but ah well, you know. Iraq has no game for these cats.

I think the leadership made a mistake, not in planning since I don't think the plan is all that flawed (though I wonder why their wasn't more battlefield prep. from the air prior to the entry of ground units), but in presenting to the media the idea that this might be a campaign lasting just a few weeks. Far better to give the expectation of a protracted campaign and be plesantly surprised when it goes quicker than the lay-people were expcecting or lead to believe.
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
... it took the Allies almost a year to go the 300 miles or so from the shores of Normandy, France to the river Elb. Not to mention 10's of thousands of military casualties not to mention 100's of thousands of civilian dead.

Our forces in Iraq have run nearly 250 miles in a week with less than a couple dozen battle casualties and maybe 100 or so civilian dead. In fact casualties are so low that each one is reported as a seperate news story.

Not bad....
 

DRB

unemployed bum
Oct 24, 2002
15,242
0
Watchin' you. Writing it all down.
Originally posted by Damn True
No plan ever survives first contact.

The 2nd ID (the most technologically advanced fighting force on the planet) will be arriving this weekend in Kuait. They were supposed to do their thing via Turkey, but ah well, you know. Iraq has no game for these cats.

I think the leadership made a mistake, not in planning since I don't think the plan is all that flawed (though I wonder why their wasn't more battlefield prep. from the air prior to the entry of ground units), but in presenting to the media the idea that this might be a campaign lasting just a few weeks. Far better to give the expectation of a protracted campaign and be plesantly surprised when it goes quicker than the lay-people were expcecting or lead to believe.
4th ID and 3rd Armored Calvary are the units with equipment on the boat.

2nd ID is in Korea.
 

Damn True

Monkey Pimp
Sep 10, 2001
4,015
3
Between a rock and a hard place.
I thought 2nd was one of the groups that was supposed to go in through Turkey? Guess I got the numbers wrong.

Coulda sworn CNN and FOX both said that the 2nd was being brought to Kuait this weekend, and the 4th (out of TX?) would be there in two weeks.

Isn't the 2nd the division that is fully up to speed with all the latest super-whammo electronic monitoring equipment?

Again, I probably got the number wrong.
 

Stiff

Monkey
Sep 24, 2001
346
0
Miss Washington DC
There´s a cheaper strategy for dealing with Saddam, one that would also save lots of lives. It´s called "no war." War is dumb. This wasn´t a last resort situation.

But then again, 5 days to Baghdad´s doorstep is fairly impressive, even if we have to pay for it for decades to come in terms of paying off war debts and in terms of INCREASED spread of chem and bio weapons, and increased apocalyptic terrorism.
 

DRB

unemployed bum
Oct 24, 2002
15,242
0
Watchin' you. Writing it all down.
Originally posted by Damn True
I thought 2nd was one of the groups that was supposed to go in through Turkey? Guess I got the numbers wrong.

Coulda sworn CNN and FOX both said that the 2nd was being brought to Kuait this weekend, and the 4th (out of TX?) would be there in two weeks.

Isn't the 2nd the division that is fully up to speed with all the latest super-whammo electronic monitoring equipment?

Again, I probably got the number wrong.
Except for the 3rd Brigade of the 2nd ID, which is at Fort Lewis, and few other units, the bulk of the 2nd ID is in Korea. I would be VERY VERY surprised if that was to change.

No the 4th ID is the "Digitization Division". Its the one that has been the test bed for lots of the new technology the news services were all gaga about.

All of the news services are slow on the uptake of the brigade division designators. I THINK that it was the 2nd brigade of the 4th ID that was moving now with the rest to follow in the coming week or so.

Additionally, the 3rd Armored Cav's equipment is enroute to the Gulf.
 

Damn True

Monkey Pimp
Sep 10, 2001
4,015
3
Between a rock and a hard place.
The bottom line is that this thing is just barely over a week old and it is entirely too early to be making judgements on the outcome.

That being said I am getting a huge kick out of listening to the media try to support their editorial viewpoint by reporting only that which supports it.

They say, "Marines encountering FIERCE fighting in Al Umptesquat." and leaving out the fact that the Marines dispatched the resistance and incurred no injuries or casualties while taking "X" prisoners in the process.

They say, "A big scary armoured column is heading south toward the Army from Baghdad." and leave out the fact that a column out in the open is like shooting fish in a barrel and they will be quickly dispatched by air rescources.

A BBC correspondant quit today due to the alteration of facts in his dispatches. Apparently the BBC is not reporting fact, but supporting editorial viewpoint, pandering and prostletizing to an anti-war audience.
 

Damn True

Monkey Pimp
Sep 10, 2001
4,015
3
Between a rock and a hard place.
Originally posted by DRB
Except for the 3rd Brigade of the 2nd ID, which is at Fort Lewis, and few other units, the bulk of the 2nd ID is in Korea. I would be VERY VERY surprised if that was to change.

No the 4th ID is the "Digitization Division". Its the one that has been the test bed for lots of the new technology the news services were all gaga about.

All of the news services are slow on the uptake of the brigade division designators. I THINK that it was the 2nd brigade of the 4th ID that was moving now with the rest to follow in the coming week or so.

Additionally, the 3rd Armored Cav's equipment is enroute to the Gulf.
The 2nd of the 4th? That would be 1/8th right?
I always hated fractions.

Thanks for the clarification. I can see how easy it would be for them to mess up the numbers. Some of these anchor guys are sitting and reading this stuff off of teleprompters for hours on end, it has to become numbing at times. Though imagine the distress of a wife or mother to hear that the 2nd is taking fire when the 2nd is supposed to be on another continent.
 

DRB

unemployed bum
Oct 24, 2002
15,242
0
Watchin' you. Writing it all down.
Originally posted by Damn True
The bottom line is that this thing is just barely over a week old and it is entirely too early to be making judgements on the outcome.

That being said I am getting a huge kick out of listening to the media try to support their editorial viewpoint by reporting only that which supports it.

They say, "Marines encountering FIERCE fighting in Al Umptesquat." and leaving out the fact that the Marines dispatched the resistance and incurred no injuries or casualties while taking "X" prisoners in the process.

They say, "A big scary armoured column is heading south toward the Army from Baghdad." and leave out the fact that a column out in the open is like shooting fish in a barrel and they will be quickly dispatched by air rescources.

A BBC correspondant quit today due to the alteration of facts in his dispatches. Apparently the BBC is not reporting fact, but supporting editorial viewpoint, pandering and prostletizing to an anti-war audience.
Bingo.