[wydopen]

so im an ex dh racer who just recently got back on a pedal bike after 6 years off

riding a giant reign and forgoing shuttle runs for pedaling to the top..bike had a continental 2.4 queen on the front and a 2.2 king on the rear....didnt like them at all...

i always rode maxxis in my dh days so i swapped them out for a set of single ply 2.35 supertacky highrollers front and rear...

rode them today but im thinking i should have gone 2.5 in the front...im also worried about pinch flatting with the single plys..

tire sizes are kinda all over the place these days..the 2.4 queen looks taller and has more volume than a 2.5 in maxxis

conditions i ride are 2500ft climbs followed by dry loose over hardpack with fixed and loose rocks on the way down..

i find myself having to take lines around rocks that i normally would manual and wheeltap on a dh bike for fear of pinch flatting...

are you guys that are riding rough terrain running dh tires and working harder on the way up or do i just need to change the way i ride??..i never rode xc in the past so im used to plowing through whatever is on the trail for the most part..

running around 32psi on a dt swiss enduro wheelset and ive already flatspotted the rear in a few places...

any suggestions would be appreciated..

 

[Beef Supreme]

Maxxis has a new EXO casing that is in between a dual ply and a single ply. It's pretty ideal for trail bike stuff unless you really want to bash into things. The old single ply casings used on the highroller are tiny.

A 2.5 Minion DHF EXO on front and a 2.4 Highroller II EXO on rear is a good combination for a pretty wide range of conditions.

 

[ScarredOne]

Having come back to XC riding recently from only DH for the past few years, I know what you're talking about. I would second the Minion 2.5 Exo for the front, I haven't flatted one of those on the front riding DH (even on Tunnel). I also like the Specialized Clutch Control 2.3 on the front of my Enduro right now, it should be a little bit lighter than a Minion Exo and have about the same or a little more carcass volume.

On the rear I've flatted Minion Exos in harsh conditions, as I ride my XC bike like a downhiller. The 2.35 Minion dual ply has been awesome and provides good traction for climbing and descending. It is heavy though, so I'm looking at the Specialized SX casing "DH" tires now in 2.3 size in hopes that I'll drop some weight for those 5k ft. climb days.

Aside from heavier tires, I've been running 35psi in the back as a bare minimum to avoid pinching, and even up to 45 psi. On the front I'm fine between 30-35psi. You can disregard any of this with the 2.35 dual ply maxxis however, and the DHF, DHR, and Larsen TT can all be found in heavy duty XC form from Euro mail order houses.

 

[wydopen]

thanks for the tips..

i also got a set of single ply larsens in 2.35...i used to love those tires...

ill try the minion up front..i was just concerned about rolling resistance..i need all the help i can get on the way up..

 

[Da Peach]

This:

A 2.5 Minion DHF EXO on front and a 2.4 Highroller II EXO on rear is a good combination for a pretty wide range of conditions.

3C compound.

 

[ScarredOne]

thanks for the tips..

i also got a set of single ply larsens in 2.35...i used to love those tires...

ill try the minion up front..i was just concerned about rolling resistance..i need all the help i can get on the way up..

Yeah. Chanced it and used a single ply kevlar bead Larsen 2.35 rear this past weekend on a long ride, and the casing withstood the downhill while rolling super fast, but sealant bled through the sidewall plenty and the tire burped a few times.

Don't know if you've searched yet but there are kevlar bead single ply 2.5 original High Rollers to be found out there, and that Specialized Butcher Control looks like it might not roll as bad as a DHF on the front as well.

 

[wydopen]

Yeah. Chanced it and used a single ply kevlar bead Larsen 2.35 rear this past weekend on a long ride, and the casing withstood the downhill while rolling super fast, but sealant bled through the sidewall plenty and the tire burped a few times.

Don't know if you've searched yet but there are kevlar bead single ply 2.5 original High Rollers to be found out there, and that Specialized Butcher Control looks like it might not roll as bad as a DHF on the front as well.

you bring up another good point..

is everybody running tubeless these days?

ive always ran tubes..back in the day i never envied anybody messing around with their stan's no tube systems...

i already hammered the rear wheel not sure if u could even run tubeless on it anymore..

 

[Beef Supreme]

is everybody running tubeless these days?

No. Tubeless is over rated.

 

[wydopen]

No. Tubeless is over rated.

doesn't seem worth the hassle to me..

think i still have a brand new stans kit circa 2004 in the garage somewhere..

 

[-BB-]

Tubeless is just fine as long as you try not to stuff the front into hard corners. I run a little extra pressure to keep them on the rim but I still get good compliance/tire deformation over terrain bc there is no tube.

 

[ScarredOne]

I'm not exactly a slouch on the downhills, but I'm no superhero pro, so I have yet to blow a tubeless tire off the rim in a corner. I hate riding tubes and avoid it if at all possible. Reducing the chance of a rear pinch flat to zero (with a maxxis two ply rear) makes it totally worth it to me, and dropping some rotating weight is icing on the cake. I've dinged up rims plenty bad (Mavic 719, 823, 729, 819) and they've still held air enough to keep riding.

 

[Jester]

Maxxis 2.35 highrollers front and rear at 25-30 psi tubeless have always worked really well for me.

 

[Polandspring88]

doesn't seem worth the hassle to me..

think i still have a brand new stans kit circa 2004 in the garage somewhere..

Agreed. I think I tear holes in tires and sidewalls more often than I pinch flat tubes.

Currently running a DHF and Advantage, both single ply. 30 psi up front, 35 in the back.

 

[kidwoo]

This:

A 2.5 Minion DHF EXO on front and a 2.4 Highroller II EXO on rear is a good combination for a pretty wide range of conditions.

3C compound.

The new 2.4 HRs are bigger than the old 2.5 minions. Unless you want that bigger tire in the rear chopper moto effect

No. Tubeless is over rated.

Hardly. Tubless is rad as hell. You can literally feel how much easier a bike rolls when tubeless. You get much more tire deformation for better traction too.

The biggest problem comes from finding a bomber setup. There's really only one UST rim company: Mavic (maybe ENVE). The rest are shlt. I've watched too many people blow off tires and burp them running other setups (rim strips/stans flow rims), it's pathetic. Just watched another one last week. If you want to run tubeless (on a trail bike you do), get a UST specfic Mavic rim and a burly tire. I can't keep anything less than a dh casing on the rear of my trail bike, I just poke holes in them, including maxxis EXOs.

There's this wonderful little tire that maxxis makes, a 2.35 minion DHF in a dh casing that's only like 100 grams more than their 2.5/2.4 EXO offerings. And it's a dh tire so you can beat the piss out of it. Any dh casing tire will be the shlt though if you can find ones small enough to be reasonably light.

If you're going to run tubless you just have to do it right. If not, then yeah, don't bother. Most people seem to be just fine with the crop of 1.5ply tires out there (maxxis EXO, any Kenda UST etc....)

 

[slyfink]

There's this wonderful little tire that maxxis makes, a 2.35 minion DHF in a dh casing that's only like 100 grams more than their 2.5/2.4 EXO offerings. And it's a dh tire so you can beat the piss out of it. Any dh casing tire will be the shlt though if you can find ones small enough to be reasonably light.

Maxxis also makes the dh-casing High Roller in 2.35. it's 1070g in regular rubber (not super tacky). worked well for me in Sedona, on a Flow EX until I got a tack stuck through a side knob, pointy end out, that scratched a gash into the sidewall as the tire compressed every time it rotated. I mean WTF?! what are the chances of that happening?!

 

[Beef Supreme]

Hardly. Tubless is rad as hell. You can literally feel how much easier a bike rolls when tubeless. You get much more tire deformation for better traction too.

The biggest problem comes from finding a bomber setup. There's really only one UST rim company: Mavic (maybe ENVE). The rest are shlt. I've watched too many people blow off tires and burp them running other setups (rim strips/stans flow rims), it's pathetic. Just watched another one last week. If you want to run tubeless (on a trail bike you do), get a UST specfic Mavic rim and a burly tire. I can't keep anything less than a dh casing on the rear of my trail bike, I just poke holes in them, including maxxis EXOs.

There's this wonderful little tire that maxxis makes, a 2.35 minion DHF in a dh casing that's only like 100 grams more than their 2.5/2.4 EXO offerings. And it's a dh tire so you can beat the piss out of it. Any dh casing tire will be the shlt though if you can find ones small enough to be reasonably light.

If you're going to run tubless you just have to do it right. If not, then yeah, don't bother. Most people seem to be just fine with the crop of 1.5ply tires out there (maxxis EXO, any Kenda UST etc....)

So what you are saying is tubeless as done by most people sucks. That is my point. It's not that it can't work, it's that it is liability more often than not. Try that same tire with a maxxis welterweight tube and a liberal amount of baby powder. You won't be able to feel the difference and you will dent the rim before you pinch flat. Really

Mostly, I just want to say I was ahead of the curve when everyone else figures this out.

 

[kidwoo]

Try that same tire with a maxxis welterweight tube and a liberal amount of baby powder. You won't be able to feel the difference and you will dent the rim before you pinch flat. Really

No not really. I've been mountain biking a looooonnng time.

I've run that exact setup and flatted both the tube and ripped the tire. This ain't my first rodeo. Neither system is in any way shape or form new or unknown to me.

Yes it's easy to put together a crappy tubeless setup. But that can be said about anything. The benefits make it worth doing right.

Mostly, I just want to say I was ahead of the curve when everyone else figures this out.

You're not onto anything. At least nothing that's applicable in sweeping general sense. Really. Tubeless setups are about 12 years deep at this point. With what's available today it's worth doing and doing right.

 

[Dogboy]

Hardly. Tubless is rad as hell. You can literally feel how much easier a bike rolls when tubeless. You get much more tire deformation for better traction too.

QFT. Like you say, getting a good setup is key. I'm running a 2.3 Specialized Butcher control (think tubeless ready DHF with a slightly better rubber compound) on an Industry 9 Torch rim. Easy inflation with a floor pump and as long as you run 25+psi there are no issues with pulling the bead off, burping, etc.

 

[Beef Supreme]

No not really. I've been mountain biking a looooonnng time.

Me too. That is how I can spot the 17" bars of the future.

In all seriousness, do you actually run the EXO casings tubeless when you test them? How about SX casings? Obviously, you are not running them on flows but I get the feeling you are aware of the questionable history of both. BTW, one of my early experiences with tubeless involved a 2 ply high roller blowing off the rim just airing it up.

The thing is, I don't need a DH casing where I ride. The EXO and Schwalbe Freeride casings are perfect. A good tubeless offering with what I consider to be an appropriate trail casing doesn't really exist. I'd consider a 2-ply HR2 on the rear if they made one in the smaller size.

New offerings may change this in the future. Super gravity casings or something something else may cause me to change my tune. It will have to have a pretty good track record before I will give it another try.

QFT. Like you say, getting a good setup is key. I'm running a 2.3 Specialized Butcher control (think tubeless ready DHF with a slightly better rubber compound) on an Industry 9 Torch rim. Easy inflation with a floor pump and as long as you run 25+psi there are no issues with pulling the bead off, burping, etc.

See, you quoted woo for truth but your example is not what he is talking about at all. The control casings don't even hold up here and we only have round rocks that politely move out of the way. He can chime in on how long they will hold up for him but I suspect it is not long. BTW, I never run more than 25lbs with my tubed set up.

My whole rub with tubeless is that there is this group think where it is seen as some type of automatic plus. People run unsafe and inappropriate tire and rim combinations because tubeless is the goal and not the means to an end.

 

[kidwoo]

For me and everyone I ride with tubeless is absolutely a means to an end, but I agree there are a plenty of retards that just read that they should do it on the internet. I cannot stress enough......I am not that guy.

And hells no I don't run anything made by stan's. That's a bunch of gimmicky lightweight shlt that fails all real world tests in an attempt to come off as something new and exciting without reverence whatsoever to the lessons learned decades ago by other companies making bomber shlt. I don't know what rim you had that high roller dh casing on but it wasn't a mavic UST rim, I know that.

I've ONLY run EXO tires tubeless. I ripped both rears I've tried in about two weeks and have never ripped one on the front so they stay there. Same with the SX casings from the borg. I've never bought a control setup because they just sounded too light to work. If you don't need a dh tire on the rear to run tubeless, that's rad, I wish I didn't have to. But being able to ping the rim hard enough to dent it is worth it to me. And I've only ever had that experience on a regular basis with dh casings. And if I'm going that route, I'm going to at least try it tubeless because the tires do work better. I gave up on it with my dh bike but I'm all about it on my trail bike and my 7" travel pounder bikes.

But the system is sound as hell. There's a reason cars and motos use it. I'd use it on my dh bike too if I could find a combo but I can't. The tires just aren't there yet. But saying tubeless is a waste of time just means that you haven't personally seen the benefits. I have. And I'm no xc anorexic looking for a lighter system so my bike weighs less to carry down scary rocky sections.

 

[Dogboy]

See, you quoted woo for truth but your example is not what he is talking about at all. The control casings don't even hold up here and we only have round rocks that politely move out of the way. He can chime in on how long they will hold up for him but I suspect it is not long. BTW, I never run more than 25lbs with my tubed set up.

My whole rub with tubeless is that there is this group think where it is seen as some type of automatic plus. People run unsafe and inappropriate tire and rim combinations because tubeless is the goal and not the means to an end.

Sorry, what? I quoted Woo's statement that tubeless is rad, you can instantly feel the difference vs. a tubed tire, and that it deforms better for more traction. My setup is fully dialed and not what you are describing at all with regards to shady tire/rim combinations and inappropriate pressures. For reference I would have to run 32+ psi on the same setup with tubes where I ride. I know that from years on tubes and finding the sweet spot where I won't pinch flat or roll a tire. We are talking about trail bikes are we not? I don't run a tubeless setup for DH and I feel that there are extremely few combinations that work - a Mavic 823 or Deemax with a Super Gravity casing tire would probably be sweet, but I'm not dumping a ton of money into new wheels/tires for my DH bike right now. As for the Control tires, they are the same casing as a non-EXO DHF (about the same weight too) and people seemed to do ok on those (on trail bikes!) for years before EXO sidewalls were available. Would they be better with an EXO-type sidewall? Hell yeah, but they still work pretty damn well.

 

[captainspauldin]

My EXO 2.5 DHF 30psi front and EXO 2.25 Ardent 35psi rear setup on tubeless has been pretty flawless so far. I've tried a single ply advantage 2.35 tubeless and it didn't end well, ever since switching to the ardent I've had zero issues. The trails I frequent aren't super gnar/rocky, might have something to do w/it..

 

[Casey-Ryan]

I have been running minions, stans tubless conversion, and I run the pressures kinda high but depends on the conditions.

I too need all the help I can get on the climbs and thats why I typically don't run anything bigger then a 2.4. If you are afraid of pinch flats tubeless is the way to go.

If you need a lot of help on the climbs also look into Rotor Q rings. I have been running them while rehabbing my knee and I haven't taken them off yet. They are great for climbing.

 

[wydopen]

keep pinch flatting with the singleplys and im running more psi than i would like...going to have to try the EXO casing...if that dosnt work ill bust out the 10year old stans no tube set ive got in the garage..

 

[kidwoo]

keep pinch flatting with the singleplys and im running more psi than i would like...going to have to try the EXO casing...if that dosnt work ill bust out the 10year old stans no tube set ive got in the garage..

You live in santa barbara, of course you're tearing pinner tires.

Most people seem to have good luck with those EXOs. Not me for a rear but that's what I've been running on the front.

 

[wydopen]

managed to keep air in the tires for the last three rides..getting used to running more psi than i used to back in the day...

this all mnt bike is pretty amazing..climbs like a billy goat and descends like a dh bike..its just as fast except for the roughest sections...shuttling is pretty much obsolete..

 

[wydopen]

so ive been able to keep air in the 2.35 highrollers for the last few weeks..my loops i ride usually involve a pavement climb and im going through the supertackys faster than i would like..cant really afford to put fresh rubber on my mnt bike once a month..i already do that on the moto

dont really want to go to 60a compound..havent ran those since the early 2000s haha

thinking about getting a Continental king/queen combo..they were on the bike when i got it..didnt really like them but they seem to wear allot better..

any other suggestions for something a little longer wearing? i know im going to give up some traction but even at 37$ from chain reaction cycles it gets expensive..

kidwoo?? any suggestions?

the only reason im considering the continentals is because my buddy who i got the bike from recommended them..he runs them for the same reason..highrollers wear too fast..hes a very very good mnt biker/bike tuner..BUT he liked the little bit of drift those tires offer..i prefer to feel like im on rails..

 

[kidwoo]

I don't have a single soft rubber tire on the rear of any of my 3 bikes I ride in the woods, not even on my dh bike. Soft rubber slows you down, especially on the back wheel. The only reason to ever run a soft rear tire on a pedal bike is in pissing down rain or soaked roots. Not only do they wear faster, they zap efficiency.

Early 2000s or not, there's a place for 60a rubber: like on the back of a trail bike in CA.

 

[wydopen]

ill give it a shot...

the center knobs on the front tire are wearing pretty quick too...just from putting miles in on the road..aside from a few fireroad climbs im mostly riding up pavement...i havent ripped any side knobs off yet..a couple are cracking a little but back in the day on my dh bike id shed the side knobs pretty quick

 

[wydopen]

My EXO 2.5 DHF 30psi front and EXO 2.25 Ardent 35psi rear setup on tubeless has been pretty flawless so far. I've tried a single ply advantage 2.35 tubeless and it didn't end well, ever since switching to the ardent I've had zero issues. The trails I frequent aren't super gnar/rocky, might have something to do w/it..

anybody else running the ardent?? looking to get a few different setups to try out..

 

[wydopen]

for anyone with the same questions as me..

right now im running a conti mountain king 2.4 front and a singleply 2.35 maxxis larsen tt in 60a in the rear..

as much as i didnt want to like the continental i cant deny that it works really good..

i also have a 2.2 mnt king to try for the rear and also have a trail king and a queen in 2.4 to try up front..

and if all else fails i have a new 2.35 highroller st/60a combo that can go back on...

i need to try the highroller in 2.5 to see if im liking the added volume of the 2.4 more than the actual tread pattern itself..after going to the 2.4 mnt king front i felt allot better in the rough..

i also forgot how badass the larsen tt is...im liking it allot more than the highroller rear for hardpack and loose on top..

the conti tires with the exception of the trail king are dirt cheap online..

now that i actually have my fork and shock dialed in im realizing what i was maybe blaming on the tires was more improper chassis setup..

 

[wydopen]

so i ended up with a continental 2.4 mountain king up front and the now discontinued maxxis larsen tt in the rear..

the continental tires are super cheap online so i stocked up..i ended up getting some mnt king 2s, a trail king and a rubber queen..

turns out the rubber queen and trail kings are the same tread pattern but the casing is way different..

the rubber queen seems like a two ply casing that weighs more than a dh casing 2.5 highroller i have..

the trail king seems like something similar to a maxxis exo casing and the mnt kings are strait singleply casing..

nowhere on the tire or when ordering was the sidewall construction designated...looking at conti's website is equally confusing..it dosnt even look like the queen is available in the thicker casing..

when i got my bike it had a queen on it but the casing was lighter than the one i have now..

http://www.conti-online.com/www/bicycle_de_en/themes/mtb/AllMountain/rubber_queen_en.html

anybody know what the deal is?

 

[herbman]

the thicker casting could be there UST setup with sidewall protection, i have a set like that as i used to ride alot of sharp rocks.

 

[slyfink]

Wydeopen, how do you like that 2.4 Mountain King II on the front? I'm thinking of getting it to replace my haggard Hans Dampf on my front wheel...

 

[wydopen]

Wydeopen, how do you like that 2.4 Mountain King II on the front? I'm thinking of getting it to replace my haggard Hans Dampf on my front wheel...

it works good...im running the trail king right now but that mnt king 2 worked equally as well..chainreaction cycles had em for like 27$..its a singleply but i haven't had any pinchflat problems..

the mnt king is way cheaper than the tail king..wouldnt spend the extra $ on the trail king..with the wider spacing/smaller knobs i would think it wouldnt hook up as well on hardpack as the trail king but it does somehow..i would think in tacky soil or loam it would be awesome

i put down my best times on my favorite trail with the mnt king II 2.4 front 2.35 larsen tt combo..have been about 40+sec off the pace latley (7min descent)..need to switch back and see if i can get the time back

riding rocks, dry hardpack and loose over hardpack..

 

[wydopen]

Wydeopen, how do you like that 2.4 Mountain King II on the front? I'm thinking of getting it to replace my haggard Hans Dampf on my front wheel...

went back to the mnt king II 2.4 front...

its much lighter than the trail king...rolled better and i felt like it hooked up much better...trails are bone dry right now so maybe the wider knob spacing is cutting through the powder a little better...i like to ride the front end and i felt like i could push it a little harder..

the trail king i took off was still fresh..so it was a good comparison

for 27$ you cant beat it..even if its overstock thats 5years old