Quantcast

Too much emphasis on lockout?

Thylacine

Monkey
May 9, 2002
132
0
Steve Irwins Bungalow
I think its a bit dangerous thinking that racers will only race on what will win. I mean, wheres the studies? How many racer types ave gone out there with 10 bikes, set up identically, not looked at them so there's no psycological preconceptions, done some laps, timed them, averaged them, gone "Thats the fastest bike, I'll ride that"??? How many sponsored Pros' companies have that many bikes to choose from anyway??
As for riders riding rebadged bikes, whats the evidence that they're faster? Annectotal. Some guy who's ahead of them rides an M1, so I'll ride an M1. Did it occur to you that their sponsor maybe considering badge engineering that bike, similar to what Haro, K2 have done etc? Its almost like your saying racers somehow have this amazing, uncanny ability to 'know' whats faster, without any decisive studies, research or anything!, not to mention power over their sponsors. Let me know how many sponsored riders have said "Sorry, I can't ride any of your bikes, they're not 'fast enough'. Guess I won't be sponsored by you."

And crashing_sux, if you think that me calling most racers a bunch of genetic freaks somehow denegrates your efforts, you better grow a thicker skin mate, because you're not gonna last long out here in the real world, and if you think you're going to become a world class athlete through sheer work, you better go look up genetics and do some research. Its not going to happen, so sorry to burst your bubble. Sure, you'll do well on the level that you're competing, you may even have some fun somewhere somehow. Thats not the issue. Sure, I was generalising in my description of XC racers, like I said, but I don't think I'm that far off the mark.
 

crashing_sux

Monkey
Jul 17, 2002
311
0
Vancouver, WA
Originally posted by Thylacine
I think its a bit dangerous thinking that racers will only race on what will win. I mean, wheres the studies? How many racer types ave gone out there with 10 bikes, set up identically, not looked at them so there's no psycological preconceptions, done some laps, timed them, averaged them, gone "Thats the fastest bike, I'll ride that"??? How many sponsored Pros' companies have that many bikes to choose from anyway??
As for riders riding rebadged bikes, whats the evidence that they're faster? Annectotal. Some guy who's ahead of them rides an M1, so I'll ride an M1. Did it occur to you that their sponsor maybe considering badge engineering that bike, similar to what Haro, K2 have done etc? Its almost like your saying racers somehow have this amazing, uncanny ability to 'know' whats faster, without any decisive studies, research or anything!, not to mention power over their sponsors. Let me know how many sponsored riders have said "Sorry, I can't ride any of your bikes, they're not 'fast enough'. Guess I won't be sponsored by you."

And crashing_sux, if you think that me calling most racers a bunch of genetic freaks somehow denegrates your efforts, you better grow a thicker skin mate, because you're not gonna last long out here in the real world, and if you think you're going to become a world class athlete through sheer work, you better go look up genetics and do some research. Its not going to happen, so sorry to burst your bubble. Sure, you'll do well on the level that you're competing, you may even have some fun somewhere somehow. Thats not the issue. Sure, I was generalising in my description of XC racers, like I said, but I don't think I'm that far off the mark.
Wow, you're a dense one. What in the world made you think I am a racer or was feeling insulted by you? I am not a racer, I made a point of saying that I don't even bother to use my lockouts as well and never in any way gave you any reason to think I was one of those guys who did race or did use lockouts all of the time. Just because I am not a racer doesn't mean I am going to ridicule their efforts for no reason.

Have I ever known a racer to turn down riding a bike because it was too slow, yes I have. I know a XC racer who is constantly being pressured to switch to his sponsors dual suspension bike but he says that he simply cannot and if forced to would have to look for another sponsor because he doesn't feel he can win on it and continuing to win will at least allow him to find other sponsors, failing to win will only make his sponsor drop him in the end and leave him with no ability to pick up new sponsors.

The same guy also times his laps with different setups as well as records his heart rate, cadence, and speed to later analyze and look for patterns to see how he can improve.

This is not unique to bicycle racers, as far as I have seen racers in every sport analyze all of the variables to the best of their abilities, then try to control and quanitfy them whenever possible in search of an advantage. Who doesn't do that when they seriously want to compete at anything in life?

I'm not saying that every racer does this, that would be like saying every bicycle build knows a good deal about bikes when I have a feeling there are a few people out there who may be passionate about bikes but probably just guess and try different things hoping to get lucky and find a good design one of these days instead of applying a little rational thought.

Concerning riding different setups back to back it happens all of the time. What do you think prototype parts keep showing up on racers bikes for? They are gathering feedback, making changes, putting slightly modified designs back on the same bikes and repeating the process so they can learn what works best and try to produce the most competitive product they can.

I'm a little surprised all of this is lost on you. Aren't you trying to get your own bike company off the ground? How do you test? Do you try everything yourself and just figure that one persons testing is enough to get decent feedback? Maybe just build stuff and sell it then wait to see what the customers complain about?

Just curious because it was my impression that this was all pretty common knowledge but you make it sound like I am spouting off new and unheard of ideas here.

By the way, what do you think motivates your average bike racer if not to win? Do you really think they're just after a paycheck? If so, do you have any idea what these guys make? Unless their in the top 10 in the world they're not making any decent money, they're instead dealing with the fact that they never have any spare cash because of their intense desire to race. Ask anyone on this board who races if they'll run a setup they don't think they can win on and see what they say. Do your own study if you haven't met enough people who are into this to have figured it out yet.
 

indieboy

Want fries with that?
Jan 4, 2002
1,806
1
atlanta
Originally posted by Thylacine
I think its a bit dangerous thinking that racers will only race on what will win. I mean, wheres the studies? How many racer types ave gone out there with 10 bikes, set up identically, not looked at them so there's no psycological preconceptions, done some laps, timed them, averaged them, gone "Thats the fastest bike, I'll ride that"??? How many sponsored Pros' companies have that many bikes to choose from anyway??
As for riders riding rebadged bikes, whats the evidence that they're faster? Annectotal. Some guy who's ahead of them rides an M1, so I'll ride an M1. Did it occur to you that their sponsor maybe considering badge engineering that bike, similar to what Haro, K2 have done etc? Its almost like your saying racers somehow have this amazing, uncanny ability to 'know' whats faster, without any decisive studies, research or anything!, not to mention power over their sponsors. Let me know how many sponsored riders have said "Sorry, I can't ride any of your bikes, they're not 'fast enough'. Guess I won't be sponsored by you."

And crashing_sux, if you think that me calling most racers a bunch of genetic freaks somehow denegrates your efforts, you better grow a thicker skin mate, because you're not gonna last long out here in the real world, and if you think you're going to become a world class athlete through sheer work, you better go look up genetics and do some research. Its not going to happen, so sorry to burst your bubble. Sure, you'll do well on the level that you're competing, you may even have some fun somewhere somehow. Thats not the issue. Sure, I was generalising in my description of XC racers, like I said, but I don't think I'm that far off the mark.
you are so wrong on that it's awful, i'm not saying that to hurt you or piss you off i'm saying it so you know. almost EVERY pro mtn bike team offers their riders a full suspension Xc model, a hardtail, and a road bike. EVERY ONE OF EM. and all of them do their own testing during the spring training camps. in the hay day of the volvo/c'dale squad they'd send their team to arizona every early spring to test out new bikes that they would be riding that up coming year. when they first started popping out the jekyll and the electric lockout design they would send riders like Cadel Evans, Tinker, Christopher Sauser, and Alison Syndor out w/ their bikes all set up w/ the exact same set up w/ the exception of that one variable they watned to test. the first tests they did were w/ the lockout systems. they sent each rider out and had them set their forks on lockout and made them ride the laps and recorded data from each rider. then repeated the experiments w/ their forks not on locked out. then they did the exact same thing w/ the jekyll's. haro, giant, specialized, yeti, Santa Cruz (the luna chix team) all supply their riders like i stated earlier. they leave it up to their riders to make the decision on what they feel comfortable on for each race. however many of them try to force the FS bikes for marketing reasons. i personally remember seeing a lot of the pro riders at snow shoe doing laps on both their hard tails and fs bikes......many of the one's i know personally all opted for their hard tails..... and here's a question for you personally w/ your own company about rebadged bikes. now this comes from a guy who races for a company that has through out the years supplied many, many rebadged bikes to many pro riders through out the years b/c those riders felt that our bikes were better riding bikes then their sponsors could supply them w/. now here's the Q.........would YOU supply a racer who confronts you about building a bike for him or several other teams at the request of them and it's cool w/ the sponsors? more then likely you would, it's business, that's money in your pockets and food on your table....in the real world that's all it comes down to.....
 

Thylacine

Monkey
May 9, 2002
132
0
Steve Irwins Bungalow
Wow, I'm 'a dense one'? Amazing how you presume to know me so well in such an intimate arena as a freakin web forum. Thanks for the insight. Despite the fact that this is not the time or place, let me address some of your 'issues', before trying to steer back on topic.
Firstly, you better learn how to read. I can't seem to find where I denegrate anyones efforts. Instead of jumping to conclusions maybe you should read what people type and lighten up a bit. Secondly, you mentioned ONE racer you know that wont ride his sponsors fs bike 'because he doesn't feel he can win.' Like I said - annectotal evidence. And he still goes to all those ( yes, anal ) efforts to measure his output and STILL thinks fs is slower? That REEKS of preconcieved notions and already making your mind up before even start. Maybe you two are related?
I also think that your perception about the links between racing and product development are slightly warped. Do you honestly think when a national title is at risk, they'll put a proto set of forks, derailleurs whatever on a racers bike? I'll tell you who does the product development - amateurs. Guys who pride themselves on breaking stuff. Enthusiasts. Friends and compatriots of product companies who just love having proto stuff to try out. How do I know this? Thats what I've been doing since 1988. The product development has basically been done before the real racers get their hands on it. What you are seeing at most races and in the magazines is largely pre production.

You also have a glorified idea about product design in general, and somehow it seems you can only relate to it as it pertains to racing. About 5-10% of the total bike market has actually raced, which is insignificant. Racing is first and foremost a tool for advertising. If you think product development is all about making racers go faster, you're beyond deluded. Racing has its place and is important, no doubt, but BACK TO THE TOPIC, lockout is about selling a new product, making more money, and making it easier for people who arent used to suspension, who are early adopters who want the latest gizmo, or who ride trails so smooth they may as well be on cyclocross bikes. For me thats retrogressive.
 

Thylacine

Monkey
May 9, 2002
132
0
Steve Irwins Bungalow
Indieboy, you're so awful, its wrong :devil: You mention a few top riders in spring traning camps, who probably annount to less than a percent of all people who race, who 'tried one lap locked out'. You then mention riders 'you personally know', choosing their hardtails over their fs bikes. Pretty scientific man. ;) Maybe you should spend less time name dropping and quoting rhetoric and reach for you IF full suspension bike next time? :rolleyes: Anyway, read above my 'exposé' on product development.

To answer your question - I'm not into badge engineering personally, but thanks for asking. My 'real world' isn't currently obsessed with money in the pockets either. And food is cheap :D
 

crashing_sux

Monkey
Jul 17, 2002
311
0
Vancouver, WA
Originally posted by Thylacine
And crashing_sux, if you think that me calling most racers a bunch of genetic freaks somehow denegrates your efforts, you better grow a thicker skin mate...
Easy boy. Considering your remarks above I thought you yourself would have a thick skin since you are advocating I grow one. If you don't and I have hurt your feelings I apologize. I wasn't meaning to cause anyone lack of sleep, I thought you had one of those thick skins you were advocating and it wouldn't faze you.

I think competition makes the cream rise to the top in general, I wasn't referring to racing specifically. Yes competition is the reason why I think good products gradually replace poorer products, it is why I think racing helps develop better products and techniques, and it is also why I have a feeling I won't see any friends riding Thylacine bikes anytime soon.

Don't take anything I have said as meant to discredit you in any way, I am sure if you really know your stuff as you say you do then you'll be a household name in no time. If you turn out to be just another idiot then you'll go out of business and never be heard from again.

When competition does such a good job of separating the wheat from the chaff in the long run I see no need for me to waste any time piss anyone off trying to do it myself.

I wonder how many others find it funny that you are so critical of the efforts made by the cdale/volvo, insinuating they weren't very scientific. How was this not scientific enough for team Thylacine's standards? Is it because you yourself have done research of so much higher quality or is similar to racing where you feel you should be the one criticising something you cannot and have not done yourself?

As you alluded to earlier, we have gotten a bit off topic so I won't continue to post to this thread.

And IndieBoy, you're spot on. One thing can be said about those idiots you know who have such silly testing techniques, they're winning why the losers are still making excuses and pointing fingers and I guess in the end that's all that matters :)
 

indieboy

Want fries with that?
Jan 4, 2002
1,806
1
atlanta
Originally posted by Thylacine
Indieboy, you're so awful, its wrong :devil: You mention a few top riders in spring traning camps, who probably annount to less than a percent of all people who race, who 'tried one lap locked out'. You then mention riders 'you personally know', choosing their hardtails over their fs bikes. Pretty scientific man. ;) Maybe you should spend less time name dropping and quoting rhetoric and reach for you IF full suspension bike next time? :rolleyes: Anyway, read above my 'exposé' on product development.

To answer your question - I'm not into badge engineering personally, but thanks for asking. My 'real world' isn't currently obsessed with money in the pockets either. And food is cheap :D
:devil: IF would never make a FS bike so i won't have to worry about reaching for one.....the market isn't ready for one anyways. i tried to get them to build me a soft tail at one point but realized that was stupid after a while. don't need it when i got a well designed Ti bike....all you ever need.
 

Skookum

bikey's is cool
Jul 26, 2002
10,184
0
in a bear cave
Hard tails make my bones ache, i've got a road bike i could go for a fair paced 100 miler but my ass litterally falls off my body at 80 and i have to stop to pick it up.
FS design has improved a buttload in recent years. When i picked up "real Mt. biking" (used to commute on an ole Trek Antelope in the city) i did it on a FS GT LTS. With the 4-bar linkage i could short burst climb very efficiently when i stayed in the saddle. Out of the saddle i was dead. Time warp to the present i have an I-drive with a psylo sl and cane creek cloud nine. I use the lock out to stiffen the front end, but never truly lock it out, nor ever will. I should have just bought the AD12 it's the same shock without the lock out, of which i will never use.
So i say correct thyaclylamide or whatever, lockout's are simply not practical. But when i get out of the saddle to hammer on my Bullit because i'm trying to figure out this jumping thing, i know i'm losing alot of torque, but i must agree that i know i will learn how to pedal more efficiently once i learn the bike better(work on my pedaling, with other adjustments in the name of technical progression Psycho1 is shedding a tear right now). So once again i'm in agreement with you, that is if a rider adjusts to the bike and not vice versa rewards can be reaped.
I've read this whole thread and now feel stupider than after reading the 2 word thread in it's entirety. I wouldnt have even posted considering i have nothing worthy to add, but after reading all this crap i felt inclined to add something so i wouldnt' feel quite as ripped off. I think i'm going to avoid the Tech Talk forum it makes me feel like i should be riding, and not pretending i think i know what the hell i'm talking about. Ok bye bye now.
Be nicer to each other guys.:)
 

indieboy

Want fries with that?
Jan 4, 2002
1,806
1
atlanta
Originally posted by Skookum
Hard tails make my bones ache, i've got a road bike i could go for a fair paced 100 miler but my ass litterally falls off my body at 80 and i have to stop to pick it up.
FS design has improved a buttload in recent years. When i picked up "real Mt. biking" (used to commute on an ole Trek Antelope in the city) i did it on a FS GT LTS. With the 4-bar linkage i could short burst climb very efficiently when i stayed in the saddle. Out of the saddle i was dead. Time warp to the present i have an I-drive with a psylo sl and cane creek cloud nine. I use the lock out to stiffen the front end, but never truly lock it out, nor ever will. I should have just bought the AD12 it's the same shock without the lock out, of which i will never use.
So i say correct thyaclylamide or whatever, lockout's are simply not practical. But when i get out of the saddle to hammer on my Bullit because i'm trying to figure out this jumping thing, i know i'm losing alot of torque, but i must agree that i know i will learn how to pedal more efficiently once i learn the bike better(work on my pedaling, with other adjustments in the name of technical progression Psycho1 is shedding a tear right now). So once again i'm in agreement with you, that is if a rider adjusts to the bike and not vice versa rewards can be reaped.
I've read this whole thread and now feel stupider than after reading the 2 word thread in it's entirety. I wouldnt have even posted considering i have nothing worthy to add, but after reading all this crap i felt inclined to add something so i wouldnt' feel quite as ripped off. I think i'm going to avoid the Tech Talk forum it makes me feel like i should be riding, and not pretending i think i know what the hell i'm talking about. Ok bye bye now.
Be nicer to each other guys.:)
you ride flats on your xc bike i don't think you have much room to talk about pedal efficiency....:rolleyes: :devil:
 

Skookum

bikey's is cool
Jul 26, 2002
10,184
0
in a bear cave
Originally posted by indieboy
you ride flats on your xc bike i don't think you have much room to talk about pedal efficiency....:rolleyes: :devil:
haha "eeehhh" game show buzzer sound
ahhh sorry you lose, i run spd 646's on my i-drive and will occasionally put them on my Bullit as well. It's actually been interesting to ride without being clipped in, it's teaching me how to move the rear end of my bike with my body instead of exclusively with my feet. Once i learn how to jump, wheelie drop, and manual with confidence and control i'll switch back to clipless full time.
And i trail ride with a guy we're talkin 6 miles 3000 ft. elevation gain to the goodie singletrack and he still is a hair better up and down. (He switched back to flats because of knee surgery)
My personal belief is my feet have actually become stupid from clipless, and i'm having to relearn pedal placement. Once that happens there's not too much difference in pedal efficiency.
 

Thylacine

Monkey
May 9, 2002
132
0
Steve Irwins Bungalow
Its a win/win situation here I feel ( apologies for lack of political correctness ) :) I typed a whole heap of crap here but then realised its basically pointess. If anyone wants to have a real discussion, ask questions about my bikes or lockout or whatnot can call me here at Thylacine Cycles - +61 3 8309 0005.
 

VTinCT

Flexmaster Flexy Flex
Sep 24, 2001
355
0
Lost in the woods...
Originally posted by Thylacine
Its a win/win situation here I feel ( apologies for lack of political correctness ) :) I typed a whole heap of crap here but then realised its basically pointess. If anyone wants to have a real discussion, ask questions about my bikes or lockout or whatnot can call me here at Thylacine Cycles - +61 3 8309 0005.

Dude, that is some FOKED-UP-REPUGNANT $hit!:angry: :angry:

I dont give a rats ass what you two girls have to say to each other, but that picture is mean, and way hateful.

You've seriously lowered yourself to another level. This is how you want to represent a company? You're an idiot.
 

Thylacine

Monkey
May 9, 2002
132
0
Steve Irwins Bungalow
Originally posted by VTinCT
Dude, that is some FOKED-UP-REPUGNANT $hit!:angry: :angry:

I dont give a rats ass what you two girls have to say to each other, but that picture is mean, and way hateful.

You've seriously lowered yourself to another level. This is how you want to represent a company? You're an idiot.
How do you want to represent yourself?? First you call us both "girls" as some sort of sexist snipe, inferring that only women discuss things and thats an undesirable thing, THEN, at the botton of you post, your signature is "Ghetto Pedalz"! This is a blatent denegration of those struggling underpriviliged African Americans trying to eek out an existance in poverty, created by YOUR imperialistic, xenophobic, amoral Anglo government! THEN, you have the audacity to call me an 'idiot'! "Idiot" is a technical term, referring to those with a very specific low IQ. My appologies on behalf of VDinVC to all the idiots out there offended by his blatent insensitivity.

Do you get my point you over zealous , knee jerk reactionary self righteous fellow mountainbiker? *sigh*

Anyway, MY POINT was is that arguing on the internet is, yes, a retarded form of communication simply because the finer points, such as body language, voice intonation, facial expressions etc are not present. Not only that, I don't know who is actually qualified to have an oppinion. I'm not going to address this anymore because frankly, its boring and has nothing to do with lockout. As the poster of this thread I am bowing out and saying that the topic has been exhausted, and has degraded into something even more stupid than I intended, and I won't be replying to any posts. My offer still stands to anyone wants to discuss this further, but I don't think its necessary. Thanks to those who participated in this thread!

Thylacine
 

VTinCT

Flexmaster Flexy Flex
Sep 24, 2001
355
0
Lost in the woods...
Originally posted by Thylacine
How do you want to represent yourself?? First you call us both "girls" as some sort of sexist snipe, inferring that only women discuss things and thats an undesirable thing, THEN, at the botton of you post, your signature is "Ghetto Pedalz"! This is a blatent denegration of those struggling underpriviliged African Americans trying to eek out an existance in poverty, created by YOUR imperialistic, xenophobic, amoral Anglo government! THEN, you have the audacity to call me an 'idiot'! "Idiot" is a technical term, referring to those with a very specific low IQ. My appologies on behalf of VDinVC to all the idiots out there offended by his blatent insensitivity.

Do you get my point you over zealous , knee jerk reactionary self righteous fellow mountainbiker? *sigh*

Anyway, MY POINT was is that arguing on the internet is, yes, a retarded form of communication simply because the finer points, such as body language, voice intonation, facial expressions etc are not present. Not only that, I don't know who is actually qualified to have an oppinion. I'm not going to address this anymore because frankly, its boring and has nothing to do with lockout. As the poster of this thread I am bowing out and saying that the topic has been exhausted, and has degraded into something even more stupid than I intended, and I won't be replying to any posts. My offer still stands to anyone wants to discuss this further, but I don't think its necessary. Thanks to those who participated in this thread!

Thylacine
Heh-heh-heh....thanks for proving my point.

By the way, I live, work, and play in an arm pit of the world, hence the GP tag.:rolleyes:

**EDIT: he's right about one thing...sorry ladies, boys are far worse than you could ever hope to be. I'll have my wife PUNISH me later as penance!:evil:
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
11,669
1,713
chez moi
Originally posted by Thylacine
Not only that, I don't know who is actually qualified to have an oppinion.
Thy, an OPINION is a view you hold without needing to be qualified to have said view.

That's what makes it an opinion! :p

MD
 

NRSracer

Jamis Slayer
Sep 7, 2001
502
0
Baltimore
Originally posted by Thylacine
How do you want to represent yourself?? First you call us both "girls" as some sort of sexist snipe, inferring that only women discuss things and thats an undesirable thing, THEN, at the botton of you post, your signature is "Ghetto Pedalz"! This is a blatent denegration of those struggling underpriviliged African Americans trying to eek out an existance in poverty, created by YOUR imperialistic, xenophobic, amoral Anglo government! THEN, you have the audacity to call me an 'idiot'! "Idiot" is a technical term, referring to those with a very specific low IQ. My appologies on behalf of VDinVC to all the idiots out there offended by his blatent insensitivity.

Do you get my point you over zealous , knee jerk reactionary self righteous fellow mountainbiker? *sigh*

Anyway, MY POINT was is that arguing on the internet is, yes, a retarded form of communication simply because the finer points, such as body language, voice intonation, facial expressions etc are not present. Not only that, I don't know who is actually qualified to have an oppinion. I'm not going to address this anymore because frankly, its boring and has nothing to do with lockout. As the poster of this thread I am bowing out and saying that the topic has been exhausted, and has degraded into something even more stupid than I intended, and I won't be replying to any posts. My offer still stands to anyone wants to discuss this further, but I don't think its necessary. Thanks to those who participated in this thread!

Thylacine
I'm not sure i read that right, you're calling someone else over-zealous?
 

thaflyinfatman

Turbo Monkey
Jul 20, 2002
1,577
0
Victoria
all i have worked out with suspension is that you have to compromise. you can make it almost perfect in one area, but suck in another, half-good on each, or completely suck on both (very easy to do). what you can't do is have everything perfect.