[MMike]

Not sure if this was discussed in Toshi's thread or not but....

Say you own two cars. An SUV and a small car. (say a Civic). You want to replace one of them to save the amount of fuel you burn...your costs etc....

Assume you rack up the same mileage on both cars, and maintenance and all that is about equal.

So now say you either:
Replace your current SUV that gets 12mpg and replace it with one that gets 15 mpg (3 mpg better)

or:

Replace your little car that gets 35 mpg with a super efficient car that gets 50 mpg. (15 mpg better)


Which option gets you further ahead?

 

[buildyourown]

I've seen this math before. That's why higher SUV and light truck CAFE standards would have a much bigger affect on our fuel usage than higher passenger car standards

 

[Serial Midget]

Keep the little car that gets 35 and stfu.

 

[Toshi]

Not sure if this was discussed in Toshi's thread or not but....

Say you own two cars. An SUV and a small car. (say a Civic). You want to replace one of them to save the amount of fuel you burn...your costs etc....

Assume you rack up the same mileage on both cars, and maintenance and all that is about equal.

So now say you either:
Replace your current SUV that gets 12mpg and replace it with one that gets 15 mpg (3 mpg better)

or:

Replace your little car that gets 35 mpg with a super efficient car that gets 50 mpg. (15 mpg better)


Which option gets you further ahead?

rephrase the question in terms of % better vs. absolute mpg better and the answer is clear (assuming both use the same grade/cost of fuel).

 

[MMike]

Apparently the US is the only country that still measures fuel economy in "distance/volume". Because it's actually quite misleading

Here cars are advertised as X litres/100km.

So 12 mpg = 20L/100km
15 mpg = 15.7L/100km
diff = 4.3 L/100km

35 mpg = 6.7 L/100km
50 mpg= 4.7 L/100 km
diff = 2 L/100km

So by only increasing your mpg by only 3, you're getting more than double the benefit.....makes ya think eh?

 

[MMike]

rephrase the question in terms of % better vs. absolute mpg better and the answer is clear (assuming both use the same grade/cost of fuel).

How so? It's an absolute....from the initial condition, you are saving twice the amount of fuel by going with the newer SUV.

edit: Ah I'm with you now...But yeah

But anyhoo, the guy on NPR was saying that we shouldn't be focussed on getting everyone to buy super-efficient cars right now. Really, we'd get more benefit from just getting the REAL gas guzzlers OFF the road ASAP

 

[sanjuro]

10000km driven in a 15mpg SUV = 1570 liters of gas used
10000km driven in a 50mpg smartcar = 470 liters

1100 liters of gas saved

Cost per liter of gas in Canada $1.40

$1,540 saved.

 

[Toshi]

How so? It's an absolute....from the initial condition, you are saving twice the amount of fuel by going with the newer SUV.


But anyhoo, the guy on NPR was saying that we shouldn't be focussed on getting everyone to buy super-efficient cars right now. Really, we'd get more benefit from just getting the REAL gas guzzlers OFF the road ASAP

hmm. i'd always thought of it the other way . to me the guy who improves his vehicle's gas mileage 30%, whether from 12 to 15.6 or from 35 to 45 and change, will see a 30% reduction in fuel costs assuming he drives the same distance. the "diff" term in your math won't placate the SUV driver who still has to pay for nearly 16 liters of fuel in your example.

 

[MMike]

hmm. i'd always thought of it the other way . to me the guy who improves his vehicle's gas mileage 30%, whether from 12 to 15.6 or from 35 to 45 and change, will see a 30% reduction in fuel costs assuming he drives the same distance. the "diff" term in your math won't placate the SUV driver who still has to pay for nearly 16 liters of fuel in your example.

You'd better not be disputing what NPR says.....you get your MD and you get all upity.....

 

[Westy]

Stay home and drink beer.

 

[Toshi]

You'd better not be disputing what NPR says.....you get your MD and you get all upity.....

i just read that it's actually based on a study in science (the magazine, not the term in the abstract, heh). i now defer to the european standards.

now what i don't get is g CO2/km. does it scale linearly with l fuel/100 km or not? if so then why is it reported separately? what's the point?

 

[thebornotaku]

sell the SUV AND the small car, get 50mpg car, enjoy benefits.

as long as that 50mpg car isn't a prius.

 

[Rip]

Get rid of both and commute to work via bike.

 

[stoney]

The ultimate factor is not about % change in fuel economy, it's about the absolute change in amount of fuel consumed. If you are consuming at a rate of 10mpg. It doesn't matter if you increase that by 50%, you're still consuming fuel at a ridiculously high rate of 15mpg. Large gas-guzzling (ie <20mpg) vehicles need to be reduced. If people NEED a vehicle that consume fuel at that rate, let them pay for it in fuel prices. I'm with Toshi, gas should be $20/gallon. It will be painful at first, but the net will allow us to build an infrastructure around public transport. And it will be paid for by those who are are above public transport.

 

[jimmydean]

The ultimate factor is not about % change in fuel economy, it's about the absolute change in amount of fuel consumed. If you are consuming at a rate of 10mpg. It doesn't matter if you increase that by 50%, you're still consuming fuel at a ridiculously high rate of 15mpg. Large gas-guzzling (ie <20mpg) vehicles need to be reduced. If people NEED a vehicle that consume fuel at that rate, let them pay for it in fuel prices. I'm with Toshi, gas should be $20/gallon. It will be painful at first, but the net will allow us to build an infrastructure around public transport. And it will be paid for by those who are are above public transport.

Americans are an innovative folk and if they want to buy and drive 6000 lbs suv's then someone will come up with a way to make them more efficient. It's already starting to happen. So basically, you bitter, tiny brained, liberal types are just gonna have to continue living on a diet of hate for those who dont give a crap about your environmental stoner fantasies. Because they are just that; fantasies.

the rest of us in the meantime will continue to make progress and enjoy the lifestyle that it brings us.

Take that, you hippie bastard!

 

[stoney]

Take that, you hippie bastard!

I will continue to enjoy the extra cash that my 35mpg car allows us to have for our lifestyle. Much better than the money I was blowing on my 13mpg truck, which I assume is about what N8's truck is getting...

 

[jimmydean]

I will continue to enjoy the extra cash that my 35mpg car allows us to have for our lifestyle. Much better than the money I was blowing on my 13mpg truck, which I assume is about what N8's truck is getting...

I ride the bus, what do I know? I get 14 miles for $1.75, does that count?

 

[stoney]

Yes it does. Can't you get a bus pass? I pay $45/month for unlimited bus usage in the SF metro area.

 

[ummbikes]

I'm joining a van pool. $65 a month. I have been spending close $500 just in gas.

I'll have $435 to spend on other stuff each month. I'll probably still use $100 in gas for my truck for weekend running around plus another $25 for my lawn-mower and racecar.

It is going to suck a bit not having the ability to bail from work early. But I can live with it.

 

[jimmydean]

Yes it does. Can't you get a bus pass? I pay $45/month for unlimited bus usage in the SF metro area.

The 2 zone pass is $65 and I only ride the bus to work, so it would save me a whole $.12.

I ride my motorcycle on nice days when I have to run an errand. It gets about 45mpg on premium. I have considered getting a scooter, but haven't yet.

 

[Kanye West]

When someone comes up with a vehicle that has CAPACITY and fuel efficiency, you'll see SUVs/trucks that get <20mpg start getting outdated. Until then, our commercial world revolves around vehicles and their mid sized capacities. People don't drive trucks because they want something that's hugely powerful or whatnot (95% of the time, unless they are towing something huge). They just need space to carry sh*t. The power is for the most part completely unnecessary. There is a very very large population of the workforce that relies on the capacity of their vehicles for day to day work. You aren't fitting more than a couple grocery bags and a mug of coffee in a Prius, so dumbsh*t hippie argument against "all these wasteful gas guzzlers" is a pretty mute point.

 

[stoney]

The 2 zone pass is $65 and I only ride the bus to work, so it would save me a whole $.12.

I ride my motorcycle on nice days when I have to run an errand. It gets about 45mpg on premium. I have considered getting a scooter, but haven't yet.

Fiance won't let me get a scooter. She's seen me ride and drive, there's no way she;ll let me get a powered bike...
Thankfully the bus to work is 2 blocks from my house and 5 from the office. If I don;t take the bus, I can ride, as we have showers and it's 2 miles away. We only drive to get to the gym (it's a climbing gym across town, but there is a new one opening down the street ). Beyond that, the grocery store is two blocks away. We're really well located to not drive. We get probably two-three tanks per month, and that includes driving to Santa Cruz for the wedding stuff.

 

[stoney]

When someone comes up with a vehicle that has CAPACITY and fuel efficiency, you'll see SUVs/trucks that get <20mpg start getting outdated. Until then, our commercial world revolves around vehicles and their mid sized capacities. People don't drive trucks because they want something that's hugely powerful or whatnot (95% of the time, unless they are towing something huge). They just need space to carry sh*t. The power is for the most part completely unnecessary. There is a very very large population of the workforce that relies on the capacity of their vehicles for day to day work. You aren't fitting more than a couple grocery bags and a mug of coffee in a Prius, so dumbsh*t hippie argument against "all these wasteful gas guzzlers" is a pretty mute point.

The people you are arguing for make up a small portion of the sales for large trucks and SUVs. (read soccer moms and suburban wasteland). Anyways, if truck were really necessary for all blue collar jobs, explain how most of Europe gets by using panel vans like dodge sprinters. there are few trucks or large SUV's in Europe where gas is twice as expensive as in the US.
Trucks as a workforce vehicle is understandable, but not for soccer mom driving the kids to school. In that case, get a minivan. They have more usable space anyways...

 

[jimmydean]

When someone comes up with a vehicle that has CAPACITY and fuel efficiency, you'll see SUVs/trucks that get <20mpg start getting outdated. Until then, our commercial world revolves around vehicles and their mid sized capacities. People don't drive trucks because they want something that's hugely powerful or whatnot (95% of the time, unless they are towing something huge). They just need space to carry sh*t. The power is for the most part completely unnecessary. There is a very very large population of the workforce that relies on the capacity of their vehicles for day to day work. You aren't fitting more than a couple grocery bags and a mug of coffee in a Prius, so dumbsh*t hippie argument against "all these wasteful gas guzzlers" is a pretty mute point.

I know Escalade's are huge with the working class. Nothing says "grocery hauler" like dubs.

At least 90% of SUV's are utterly unnecessary. A family of 4 doesn't need seating for 8. Sorry, your argument doesn't hold water. If you would like, I can photograph the jackasses in my neighborhood to support my point. There is a single guy around the corner with a Suburban lifted a foot high rolling polished 22's. I'm sure he needs 400 cubic feet of cargo room to haul his Costco ramen home.

 

[jimmydean]

Fiance won't let me get a scooter. She's seen me ride and drive, there's no way she;ll let me get a powered bike...
Thankfully the bus to work is 2 blocks from my house and 5 from the office. If I don;t take the bus, I can ride, as we have showers and it's 2 miles away. We only drive to get to the gym (it's a climbing gym across town, but there is a new one opening down the street ). Beyond that, the grocery store is two blocks away. We're really well located to not drive. We get probably two-three tanks per month, and that includes driving to Santa Cruz for the wedding stuff.

My bus is a block away from home and a nice mile walk to the office. We have showers at work and I've ridden my bike one leg of the trip (I change buses half way) and will consider riding the whole way if I build a sub 45# rig (I only have my DH rig now). My bike doesn't quite fit in the bus rack, but only a few drivers have ever bitched that the tires aren't fully seated (Kenda 2.7's).

My wife says if I get a scooter, she would take the rider safety course so she could use it to go to the barn and around town.

Portland mass transit ROCKS!

 

[stoney]

That's awesome. Fiance is actually really cool with getting a bike (as seen in other thread). She wants to get to the point that we can ride down to the gym, after work as a workout, and around the neighborhood to get chores done. It's a win-win.

*edit: have you thought about a cheap roadie?

 

[spocomptonrider]

At least 90% of SUV's are utterly unnecessary. A family of 4 doesn't need seating for 8. Sorry, your argument doesn't hold water. If you would like, I can photograph the jackasses in my neighborhood to support my point. There is a single guy around the corner with a Suburban lifted a foot high rolling polished 22's. I'm sure he needs 400 cubic feet of cargo room to haul his Costco ramen home.[/QUOTE]

LMAO... also this...

 

[jimmydean]

*edit: have you thought about a cheap roadie?

2 years ago I picked up a wicked nice Centurion Dave Scott Ironman Master (circa 1989) like I raced in high school for $120 off ebay. But in a month the wheels were so beat from hopping curbs, I had to sell it.

I need a trail bike anyway, so a burley all-mountain will work. Besides, I doubt I will ever get bellow 230 and I tend to be brutal on bikes. But the new Norco CX is only $600 and bad ass.

<edit>

 

[Booker]

You aren't fitting more than a couple grocery bags and a mug of coffee in a Prius, so dumbsh*t hippie argument against "all these wasteful gas guzzlers" is a pretty mute point.

I wouldn't clasify the Prius as a small car, but you would be supprised what you could fit into a well designed smaller vehical. I drive a Toyota Yaris hatchback and cram all kinds of stuff in there. 5 people no problem, a 6' "cut your own" christmas tree with the hatch closed, a screen door, 2 trailbikes on a hitch rack plus one in the car (Specialized Enduro w/ Marz. 66) with 3 guys and gear, and every once in a while i may stop by a jobsite on my way home and will haul an arc welder, 5ga air compressor, small plasma cutter, 200' or air hose, 2 argon tanks, plus hand tools and cords. Most people i see rolling around in SUV's haul little more than their groceries and their 2 kids. Once a year they may load it down for vacation and even then i see an empty back hatch and all their stuff piled on top on a roof rack carrier. I realise the utility of a truck, we have a Ford F-250 as my company work vehical, but having owned a 4x4 ruck for years i found i beat on it because I could. I pulled cedar logs, hauled all kinds of heavy ****, offroaded it ect. Made all kinds of excuses as to why i "needed" it.

 

[binary visions]

People don't drive trucks because they want something that's hugely powerful or whatnot (95% of the time, unless they are towing something huge). They just need space to carry sh*t. The power is for the most part completely unnecessary. There is a very very large population of the workforce that relies on the capacity of their vehicles for day to day work.

I can look out into the parking lot across the street right now. Less than 1/3rd of the cars I see there are smaller than a Ford Explorer. In the small parking lot where I work, five of the women I work with who have no kids, no pets, and no hauling needs drive Tahoe-sized vehicles.

You can't honestly believe that everyone who buys these vehicles needs them, can you? Are you blind? You think the executive who drives a Lincoln Navigator is doing anything but driving a status symbol? You think there aren't vehicles with huge cargo space that actually get more than 20mpg?

You aren't fitting more than a couple grocery bags and a mug of coffee in a Prius, so dumbsh*t hippie argument against "all these wasteful gas guzzlers" is a pretty mute point.

Two things: calling it a "dumbsh*t hippie argument" only demonstrates that you have no valid counterpoint, and also... "mute" point?

 

[syadasti]

"mute" point?

Google images makes it all clear

 

[BurlyShirley]

The people you are arguing for make up a small portion of the sales for large trucks and SUVs. (read soccer moms and suburban wasteland). Anyways, if truck were really necessary for all blue collar jobs, explain how most of Europe gets by using panel vans like dodge sprinters.

How is driving a van any different/better than driving a truck? Compare the fuel efficiency of a basic F-150 and a basic Ford Fullsize Van and tell me which gets better mileage.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Anyway, I still refuse to give a rat's ass what other people drive. If people are dumb enough or rich enough to be wasting a ton of money on gas...good on them. The sooner the oil runs out, the better it will be for the world. The more expensive the situation gets, the more apt the government will be to support other technologies.

 

[syadasti]

How is driving a van any different/better than driving a truck? Compare the fuel efficiency of a basic F-150 and a basic Ford Fullsize Van and tell me which gets better mileage.

Dodge Sprinter 25mpg 2008 combined cycle

Ford F150 2WD 14-16mpg 2008 combined cycle

 

[BurlyShirley]

Stoney,

The Dodge Sprinter Van starts at about $35,000 and gets 21 MPG with no cargo.

The Ford F 150 starts at $16,274 and gets 19mpg.

Hmmm... I wonder why Americans buy trucks.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Dodge Sprinter 25mpg 2008 combined cycle

Ford F150 2WD 14-16mpg 2008 combined cycle

Oh good, so you compared two completely different vehicles from different manufacturers. Great. Well look at the post above on starting MSRP, and tell me how many years of driving it would take to make the dodge more economical.

 

[syadasti]

Oh good, so you compared two completely different vehicles from different manufacturers. Great. Well look at the post above on starting MSRP, and tell me how many years of driving it would take to make the dodge more economical.

Joker mentioned the Sprinter.

All the major freight company are using them these days because they are more economical.

The F150 does not get 19mpg, that is highway mileage, not combined.

according to people who use them to earn a living, low-to-mid-20s, fully loaded, can be seen regularly. The last time we tested a Sprinter&#8212;it comfortably seated 10&#8212;it was fitted with a less powerful but more miserly 2.7-liter diesel inline-five, and we got 30 mpg combined.

 

[binary visions]

Zero - all the major freight company are using them these days because they are more economical.

Zero? The price difference between them equates to more than 4,600 gallons of gas at $4/gallon. Just because a major freight company drives enough miles to make it worthwhile doesn't mean that the average person can.

 

[syadasti]

Zero? The price difference between them equates to more than 4,600 gallons of gas at $4/gallon. Just because a major freight company drives enough miles to make it worthwhile doesn't mean that the average person can.

Not zero years but zero freight companies are using small american vans or trucks. They make no economic sense.

As the linked article states dodge sprinters are pretty common these days for new commercial fleets, small or large.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Another thing you're failing to consider syadisti, is that "work trucks" are really only good for a few years with construction type jobs because of the beating they take. A high dollar, long life diesel engine would be a completely foolish purchase considering the rest of the vehicle would never last long enough to make it economical.