Coffs harbour, NSW, Australia
Tuning blackbox speedstack in boxxer wc/team
- Thread starter Udi
- Start date
What's that? I was right?
Empty your oil and re-measure in 150ml if you have to. Five clicks does make some noise, six and seven clicks will be quieter but will probably give you too much damping (for your liking anyway). The front and rear will definitely feel un-balanced, and the setup doesn't suit riding styles involving hanging off the back and letting the bike ride you down the hill. Toodles thinks that the DHR is very much that type of bike, so if you don't get over the front much either then too much LSC won't be good.
So the setup may not suit your bike, or you might want to try riding a little more aggressively and further forward to reap some benefits from the increased LSC. I've been running the propedal on my DHX most of the way in to achieve some balance, whereas your avalanche was running very little comp damping when I felt it. Might be worth turning it up a little if you have an adjuster.
After ample time on the setup now though, I gotta say I like it. I've tried 5, 6, and 7 clicks on various tracks now (both rough and smooth) and it has been working quite well without loosing traction or causing much hand discomfort. That was all with the floodgate out, but on smoother tracks where i've felt it was blowing off too quickly, the floodgate comes into play. A few clicks in and it blows off later, so the mid to high speed damping curve starts later... and therefore I get a little more mid/high speed damping as needed.
So I think the earlier theories about the speedstack not being beneficial are indeed true, and just running the LSC and floodgate setup gives ample control over mid/highspeed damping IMO - and just works much better. There's no reason you can't run less lowspeed if you prefer that (4 or 5 clicks) and more floodgate so that level of damping stays over a greater speed range.
With all that in mind, i'd be interested in hearing what you think on-track. Like I said, play with the settings to suit yourself... now that you've got full control externally.
Correct, on corner entry it is reducing dive, so you can enter it faster much more comfortably (and therefore also exit faster). On corner exit and flatter sections you can pedal more aggressively with less bob.
3 clicks on a motion control fork really doesn't achieve much. Low speed damping is something you can feel just pushing on a fork, and in my opinion you don't start feeling any low-speed until 5 clicks. At 1 through to 4 oil (at low speed) is flowing through the LSC port pretty much unrestricted. If you are feeling any damping it is probably a result of the in-line speedstack.
Even at 5 clicks there isn't a whole lot (thaflyinfatman will agree with me here), but the problem is this amount increases greatly at 6 clicks. So to reach an ideal solution you would want to use heavier oil with 5 clicks, or lighter oil with 6-7 clicks. The speedstack just complicates issues so these suggestions are assuming it has been unscrewed first.
You said mid or higher, not highest, so no, but closer then i or fatman was, so i'll give you a star stamp next time i see youWhat's that? I was right?
Im getting the hi/low adjuster for my avy. If i crank in the low speed it feels harsh, on rocky trails my feet start to kill, so i usually have it about 1/3 of the way in, meaning it doesn't have much lsc. The adjuster should fix that. And it needs some new oil anyway, im going to rebuild it myself as well, should be good.
Im trying to ride further forward at the moment, hence the reason i flipped my stem upside down. But i naturally want to ride over the rear which is kind of annoying.
I did notice that it made almost no noise in settings 1-4, 5 was horrible, a bit better in 6-7 but not alot.
Im interested to see how it goes as well, although i was expecting a bit more then 3mm of gate adjustment.
Quint's just tossed me a dinosaur stamp that says GREAT!
I gave myself a few because I totally am.
About the noise, mine is very quiet at 6 and silent at 7. Check your oil level and make sure the container you use is accurate. Could also be the oil, silkolene is working great for me... will try redline next just so i've sampled seemingly the best two. It might also be quieter once the fork has warmed up, see how it sounds at the end of a run. Sound shouldn't really be a huge deal in relation to performance, but it bugs me too so I know how you feel.
And regarding gate adjustment - you'll find 3mm is a large amount, as the plastic tube won't compress a whole lot more than that (think about it, if it did, that blue rod would cop the force, because the blue piston/base can only move so far up). Had a little chat with fatty to clarify this.
With the gate all the way out the fork does blowoff quite easily, with a huge difference when it is wound all the way in - so I think range-wise it is great. It'd be nice if the LSC also gave such a useable range (with that many options in between) as well!
For reference, my pike seems to have a *slightly* larger gate range - so with the LSC locked and the gate all the way out, the fork feels completely wide open.
i get the "sucking sound" on 4th (and up) LSC click. i also feel the front feeling kinda stiff in this setting (and i'm bouncing around) when it starts to get faster but slower technical steep riding it's perfect for me. my floodgate is full open.
good thing i didn't buy the race. floodgate at full close would be pretty harsh for a light guy.
good thing i didn't buy the race. floodgate at full close would be pretty harsh for a light guy.
Is the Floodgate the LSC you guys talking about? I don´t feel any differencen between Floodgate full closed or full open?! What´s the reason?
Helps reduce the sudden feeling of brake dive (once you've been on the brakes for more than a second it doesn't really reduce the total distance of dive very much) and lets you really hammer into corners with any kind of support (ie berms/ruts) without feeling like your bars are trying to have sex with your front axle. It helps keep the front end a tad higher which means you can weight the bars a bit more without them disappearing from under you. As far as pedalling, unless it's locked out then it really makes bugger all difference IMO, pedalling input frequencies and shaft speeds are extremely low compared to anything else a fork gets put through, and besides that, I've never felt any real loss of efficiency coming from the fork when snapping in a couple of cranks out of a corner.
MORE than 3mm? Consider this:
Shaft size is 12.5mm diameter (122.7mm^2 cross sectional area). Stanchion ID is about 26mm (531mm^2 cross section). 531 x 3 = 1593mm^3, ie the volume of oil needed to be displaced in order to take up the "blowoff" distance. 1593/122.7 = 12.98mm (say 13mm just for simplicity's sake).
This means that with the floodgate backed right off (hardest to blow off) the fork has to compress at least 13mm just to get it to that point, and that's assuming NO oil is getting through there to begin with (ie fork locked out). This is why even "locked out", the fork has a certain amount of movement in it.
I can already see what you're gonna say next about the Race unit now...
Floodgate is the smaller gold knob. the LSC is the larger blue knob. if u wanna feel the effect of the floodgate standing still (parking lot test), turn the LSC all the way close so it's "lock" (push on it) then back off the floodgate to all open (- negative).... load the fork up real good (put all your weight on it) and the fork should "unlock" as the extra port opens. now if you have the floodgate all the way + and try that again. that should pretty much stay lock.
Ummm.....what??thaflyinfatman said:
What i meant when i said that comment was i was expecting it to be more then 3mm given the amount clicks you get. Wasn't actually saying anything about the design.
haha, I know what you meant. Keep thinking about the HSC... it'll click
Hey CD - can you tell me if the base of the race MC damper is the same as the base of the team/wc one? When I say base, I mean the blue piston and silver plate assembly, that is held into the plastic spring tube with a 2mm-key screw.
Just came back from 2 days at coffs, the setup worked beautifully for me.. I ran it at 7 clicks with no gate, worked fine in the top rockgarden and well the rest of the track is smooth as silk... was smashing the corners pretty hard but no doubt there was still room to go faster.
I had one (unrelated) issue though, after about 10 runs the silver plate didn't "return" all the way after a rebound stroke to cover the LSC ports. It returns on a slight angle and sits on the blue piston unevenly, making for no LSC and an angry udi who's neck meets a tree after the fork dives in a corner very unexpectedly.
I've lightly wet-and-dried the blue female rod that extends from the silver plate, and also the male threaded rod (the one that the speedstack screws onto) to try and let them slide smoothly, but it still seems to happen every now and then. Resetting it is pretty easy, but you have to take the MC out.. not really sure how to cure it..
Just came back from 2 days at coffs, the setup worked beautifully for me.. I ran it at 7 clicks with no gate, worked fine in the top rockgarden and well the rest of the track is smooth as silk... was smashing the corners pretty hard but no doubt there was still room to go faster.
I had one (unrelated) issue though, after about 10 runs the silver plate didn't "return" all the way after a rebound stroke to cover the LSC ports. It returns on a slight angle and sits on the blue piston unevenly, making for no LSC and an angry udi who's neck meets a tree after the fork dives in a corner very unexpectedly.
I've lightly wet-and-dried the blue female rod that extends from the silver plate, and also the male threaded rod (the one that the speedstack screws onto) to try and let them slide smoothly, but it still seems to happen every now and then. Resetting it is pretty easy, but you have to take the MC out.. not really sure how to cure it..
just a few points, i only have 6 clicks of lsc!? so how can you be runing it on 7?
heres what i have to say on my first ride out(with the propper spring rate) on my teams:- i have also notived that on no lsc, the floodgate does nothing, i assume this is because the floodgate controlles blow off not atuall hsc? This wasnt the best track to try it on but, i cant see how you guys can run so much lsc(i was runing stock though) to be honest i think that i found no lsc far better as the fork gripped and soaked up root allot better alowing me to pedal better because i wasnt geting bounced all over the place. 1-2 clicks doesnt seem to stop bob but it still loses allot of grip and small bump sensitivity, 3 is a little better but again, from what i understand it should blow off over roots etc, but it didnt realy do that and i dont think the ammount of anti squat etc. was worth the sacrifice. any more clicks has good anti squat but didnt blow off propperly and only realy reacted to big hits. and full just locks the forks out. this was with the floodgate all the way out, it realy desnt seem to do what it should.
heres what i have to say on my first ride out(with the propper spring rate) on my teams:- i have also notived that on no lsc, the floodgate does nothing, i assume this is because the floodgate controlles blow off not atuall hsc? This wasnt the best track to try it on but, i cant see how you guys can run so much lsc(i was runing stock though) to be honest i think that i found no lsc far better as the fork gripped and soaked up root allot better alowing me to pedal better because i wasnt geting bounced all over the place. 1-2 clicks doesnt seem to stop bob but it still loses allot of grip and small bump sensitivity, 3 is a little better but again, from what i understand it should blow off over roots etc, but it didnt realy do that and i dont think the ammount of anti squat etc. was worth the sacrifice. any more clicks has good anti squat but didnt blow off propperly and only realy reacted to big hits. and full just locks the forks out. this was with the floodgate all the way out, it realy desnt seem to do what it should.
Yes, they are exactly the same.
Maybe try putting in a slightly heavier spring between the plate and the blue base? The spring that is in there is weak as piss.udi said:
I know what you mean though, when i have had them out playing with it it seems to get stuck easily, and there is a bit of play in it meaning it can go in at an angle.
Ah this is mine and Udi's fault - there are 7 available positions for LSC. We refer to them as clicks 1 through 7, with 1 click being effectively no LSC (though 2 and 3 are much the same). You can only dial it 6 actual clicks across from either end of the spectrum though, so technically what we refer to as 1 click is actually no clicks.
The reason you'll find the floodgate does nothing with no LSC is because enough fluid moves through there, easily enough, that it can't build the pressure required to "blow off". Hence the floodgate is only any good if you are actually going to run sufficient LSC to make use of it. When you say floodgate "all the way out" do you mean at the easiest-to-blow-off setting? Because on all the Teams/WCs I've ridden, setting them to the easiest position effectively renders the LSC useless because it blows off VERY VERY easily (enough that I can easily do it just by pushing on the fork).
Can somebody explain the meaning of the word "spike" to me, cause I found no translation that made any sence to me?!
Basically it means a sharp (very very fast) increase in the force transmitted to the rider by the fork, due to the compression damper having far too much resistance. It happens when the fork is compressing faster than the damper's speed range can take into account. It feels like the fork is bottoming out even when it's not using all its travel. Most high end forks don't "spike" as such but people still use the term to describe setups that have too much high-speed compression damping, and thus feel very harsh to the rider.
In simpler tems it is when the fork feels like it is locked out because the oil inside cannot move fast enough through the damping holes to handle impacts. (That's a bit over-simplified but I think you will understand).
Ok...thanks to you both. I think I get it!
Btw I think I dont´t have that feeling on my 06 WC and I´m driving very low pressure and 3 clicks LSC form open with Floodgate fully open (easy to blow off), and I´m using all the travel!
Btw I think I dont´t have that feeling on my 06 WC and I´m driving very low pressure and 3 clicks LSC form open with Floodgate fully open (easy to blow off), and I´m using all the travel!
Nope, I can actually count 7 clicks both ways. This is just dependant on how tight the plastic spring tube is screwed onto the topcap. It's reverse threaded, and roughly 1mm either way will be the difference between 6 and 7 clicks. No big deal either way.
Yeah - agreed. The thin back of the silver part and its fit in the blue piston could be toleranced much tighter to stop it being able to sit on an angle.
You can't really go much harder with spring rate though, because if it's too hard to make it fall open, it'll affect rebound and maybe cause air bubbles too. But i'd like to play with it nonetheless - even lightly stretching the spring.
But how is the silver plate connected to the blue female rod that extends up from it? I've tried gently unscrewing them both ways with no luck, but didn't want to break it so I left it. I'd love to know how to seperate them so I could remove the spring and play with it!
Hi guys, makes me wonder if I can put the complete right-hand side MC compression assembly from a 7in 06 Ride to a 8in 06 Race (and vice versa) to create a 8in Team and a 7in Race w/ U-turn? The reason is I can have a deal on both new Ride and Race, but the Team is still too expensive for me. I would then easily get rid of the downgraded Ride and keep the upgraded Race to Team. Having studied the RS fork skeches it seems absolutely possible to me but I never really had a chance to open one myself so if anyone can save me from a disappointment, I will be glad. Note that I plan to keep the rebound assembly untouched as it appears to be identical on all 2006 boxxers. Boxxer Gurus correct me if I'm wrong 
Thanks a lot Udi, I will surely post my experience. FYI the prices I got are 2007 RACE 470 EUR, 2006 RIDE 430 EUR and 2007 TEAM 650 EUR. Even at this price the team is quite a bargain, but the thrill of playing with the forks forces me to choose the harder way.Yep, will work fine.
The MC assembly in the ride should be identical to the one that comes with the team. Good luck with the conversion.
I just hope the 06/07 models are really the same as everyone claims, otherwise I am in trouble!
I went on a little ride today and worked with my WC. I have been pleased with its performance but I have felt it has been a little too linear and rode very low in the travel for my liking especially compared to my older non-mc boxxer, even with a little more air pressure then I would normally run for my weight to prevent it from diving. I tried 5clicks of LSC and put the floodgate all the way back(-). Wow, I say I really felt the difference in cornering where I could weight my bars more without the front pushing or having the bars dive from under me. In the rough stuff you can definatley feel the floodgate blowoff and I felt like it was keeping me a little more propped up and kept me skipping over the top of stuff a little better, but rode nearly as plush. Thanks guys. And yes, I did notice that 1-4 is almost nothing, the LSC really starts at 5.
Good to hear AP. Am considering a mod that should help linearise the adjustment range of the LSC (friggin stupid having such an exponential curve... 1-4 does nothing, 5 is a lot, 6 is nearly locked out, 7 is totally locked). Stay tuned... if I get around to doing it you'll hear about it in a few weeks.
Tapering the slot like a tear drop shape?? I have been thinking about getting a new bottom section machined up with better tolerances. Let me know how it goes.
I also find the jump from 4-5 is too much, and 5 clicks is too much LSC for rocky tracks.
I ended up pulling out the blackbox stack and have had a few rides on them and they felt pretty good, although im not sure if it is because I have been running 4-5 clicks of LSC up from the 2 clicks I was running before. I should put it back in to check but I haven’t been bothered.
Im still having issues of air build up in my lowers as well, I need to let it out every 2-3 rides, its really starting to piss me off.
The new avy hi/low adjuster I installed matches perfectly to the boxxer. My bike is feeling fairly dialed at the moment.
yes, drops straight in
I agree, 5 clicks might be too much for rocky tracks, I will definatley end up riding more like 2 clicks at places like bromont which are constant rock the whole way down. The 5 click setup does have its advantages though at certain places, and I really like the way it feels.
thaflyinfatman- let me know about that, sounds great. The jump from 4-5 is pretty huge.
Nah, was thinking of modding the LSC adjuster plate itself, but the teardrop thing could work. More complicated than I have the tools and time to do though.
Ahhh.... but how can you mod it to do that? Are you thinking of drilling a small hole in the plate so it only comes into play when you hit click 5 to allow a little bit more oil to flow??
I think the tear drop type shape could work well, in addition to chamfering the edges at 45 degress to smooth the oil flow a bit. I also want to make sure the base plate can only move up and down, i dont like the way it can jam in on an angle. Might draw one up in the next few weeks.
I have a spare one from my race mcu laying around, maybe i should hit it up with the dremel, full ghetto ridemonkey racer style
Chamfering the edges won't do much unless it's physically rough already, but yeah the teardrop thing might work.
You interested in selling that other piston? I'd give ya like $30 for it... if not, no biggie.
You interested in selling that other piston? I'd give ya like $30 for it... if not, no biggie.
I was going to keep it incase mine jams and bends. If i make this other one and it works then no probs.
Hmmm........ the black box piston has chamfered edges, infact every piston i have ever seen has had 45 degree edges which i assumed is to try and keep the fluid laminar, except that one in question which is just a slot. My fork makes some bad sucking type noise when the LSC is cranked up high, i was thinking the sharp edge is causing issues. It certainly wouldn't hurt to do it properly if im going to the hassle of doing it in the first place.
Yeah, but flow separation (and associated inconsistencies) occur where the pressure drops suddenly (back side of the piston rather than front side). I doubt it would make much difference. A lot of pistons have chamfered edges just because they're trying to pull fluid in under shims which aren't pressed up against em (eg rear shock pistons). Many of them also don't bother, but I would seriously doubt that it will make much diff either way.
Do you think the spring that partly covers the ports on the rearside of the piston would affect flow seperation at all?
I've been running a custom spring setup for the last few weeks, and so far no dramas. Ditched the stock spring, and instead there's now a long thin spring from a dust wiper that's looped through the female prong attached to the silver plate, and tied to the speedstack (with no shims on it).
I installed that brand new piston/spring assembly off the boxxer race prior to that, but the spring still played up, i'm surprised you guys haven't had any issues running 5+ clicks. So my home solution has cured it for me so far.
I've been running a custom spring setup for the last few weeks, and so far no dramas. Ditched the stock spring, and instead there's now a long thin spring from a dust wiper that's looped through the female prong attached to the silver plate, and tied to the speedstack (with no shims on it).
I installed that brand new piston/spring assembly off the boxxer race prior to that, but the spring still played up, i'm surprised you guys haven't had any issues running 5+ clicks. So my home solution has cured it for me so far.
So you ended up putting in a stiffer spring? No probs with rebound at all? How do you pull apart the assembly to get the spring out?
And im having trouble with a visual of what you did, do you have a pic?
I had mine at 5 clicks the other day, hit a drop and it felt like the forks became a bit softer to push down on if you get what i mean. I was worried i may have jamed the piston like you did but i have not pulled it apart to look yet.
Sorry didn't take any pics... bit of a tough one to explain, as it took a bit of playing around to make a system that worked. Installing it was tough too (as will be pulling the assembly apart again) but if/when I do i'll take some pics.
Basically though, I drilled a small hole through the female prong, just below where the male one slides into it, and fed an unclipped dust wiper spring (ie one long spring, not circle anymore) through it..... and the two ends of the spring run up next to the blue shaft, all the way to the speedstack. I just made the speedstack hold the two ends of the spring, crimping them together. Does that make sense?
The spring isn't stiffer as such (maybe a *tiny* bit but not significantly, I stretched it to get it fairly close to stock), just less likely to screw up. I had an issue with the stock spring where it would get out of shape and eventually stop pulling the plate closed all the way... and what you'd get is intermittent LSC, it might kick in later in the stroke as the oil pressure/speed forces the plate closed... or something like that.
So yeah it's not really an issue with the plate/piston at all, I concluded in the end (after trying a brand new one and doing the same thing) that it was the spring at fault and not the tolerancing of the assembly really. You can pick the spring back into shape again and she's apples, but I found it would happen again, just a matter of time.
Basically though, I drilled a small hole through the female prong, just below where the male one slides into it, and fed an unclipped dust wiper spring (ie one long spring, not circle anymore) through it..... and the two ends of the spring run up next to the blue shaft, all the way to the speedstack. I just made the speedstack hold the two ends of the spring, crimping them together. Does that make sense?
The spring isn't stiffer as such (maybe a *tiny* bit but not significantly, I stretched it to get it fairly close to stock), just less likely to screw up. I had an issue with the stock spring where it would get out of shape and eventually stop pulling the plate closed all the way... and what you'd get is intermittent LSC, it might kick in later in the stroke as the oil pressure/speed forces the plate closed... or something like that.
So yeah it's not really an issue with the plate/piston at all, I concluded in the end (after trying a brand new one and doing the same thing) that it was the spring at fault and not the tolerancing of the assembly really. You can pick the spring back into shape again and she's apples, but I found it would happen again, just a matter of time.
Are you guys sure? I downloaded the manual and measuring the MCU unit lengths on the sketches bore different results (though it was like 1,5% pixels more with speedstack). Has anyone actually done it in the past? I plan to swith the 06 Ride and 07 Race units and pray for them to fit without respacing, both forks are already on their ways!
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