I was the first person to try it out, and I found the easiest way to work out the approximate length was to pull the end piston off (where the LSC adjuster plate is), put the nyloc nut on and keep gradually testing where the "zero" point is by putting the end piston back in and seeing if the LSC adjuster plate was pushed off the piston at all. If it still moves out at all then you need to wind it in a bit further. Once you've "zeroed" it so that the LSC adjuster plate only just fully closes, every turn in is 0.75mm. You have 3mm of adjustment in total (before you go past the point where the LSC would have been forced to blow off anyway). I run mine one turn in and that seems pretty well perfect (though I am a heavy guy, 100kg/220lbs) - I can only blow it off by bouncing on it if I really try hard but it's smooth over the bumps. This is equivalent to about 6 clicks of the floodgate (1/4 the way in) I think (there are 24 clicks right? I forget).
Tuning blackbox speedstack in boxxer wc/team
- Thread starter Udi
- Start date
Fantastic! Thanks so much for the help. I'm not overly mechanically inclined but I will give it a try. Now I just have to figure out how many turns for a guy who weighs 150lbs.
As you already have a team, there is no need for that mod. Your nyloc nut is the gold dial on top of your right stanchion.
semi-OT: Just swapped my yellow spring for a silver spring (reg. to x-soft) and the fork now feels great.
I am, however, getting a rattling noise from the spring side.
I assume that what I hear is the spring knocking against the side of the stanchion.
Is there a chance that that rubber sections around the spring not in the proper locations?
I am, however, getting a rattling noise from the spring side.
I assume that what I hear is the spring knocking against the side of the stanchion.
Is there a chance that that rubber sections around the spring not in the proper locations?
Just make sure you have enough preload spacers in the spring leg to take up the slack. Springs vary in length, so the preload spacers can compensate for that.
Hi guys Ive got one stupid question. Before I bought my boxxer I heard stories about people getting sore hands after days full of DH riding. Now I got sore fingers myself. It started after a day of shuttles (approx. 15 runs) and even after 2-3week still periods, it still comes back on each DH race. Even without riding I feel my finger are not alright after 2 weeks of rest. Could it be connected to something else? Do you also have this problem? I run my floodgate all the way of to soften it as much as it gets.
Is it in your knuckles? I get it too, have gotten it with every fork I've used. If it's really bad I suggest talking to a doctor. Don't do what everyone else does and assume that running less compression is what you need to do, in fact you might well need more. I know doing back-to-back runs with compression turned up and down that I definitely noticed more hand and arm fatigue when there was no compression than with lots of LSC (followed by a softish floodgate setting as described above).
ffm: thank you, can you explain how less LSC causes more hand fatigue? or you just learnt that yourself?
I found that particularly on steep stuff or where you're heavy on the brakes, you get pitched forwards more and end up having to put more effort into holding yourself up with your arms. At first I wasn't sure if I was imagining it but I tried it several times and the difference was quite noticeable (and repeatable) - arguably moreso for the arms than the knuckles though. After a few days of riding really rough stuff, my knuckles are all f**ked anyway and there's not much I can do to fix it!
Moreso the arms - you are right, but my arms are fit, unlike the fingers which are getting worse and worse. Could carbon bars help? Anyone took them for a shuttle day to compare?
Hello,
i buy a 2007 boxxer race. i'm surprised, there is nothing inside my Motion Control !
i have no piston, no nyloc nut, just the LSC on the damper.
When i remove the LSC, i see just a long arm who turn the LSC. I don't dream, it's really empty !
I don't understand something ?
Thank you !
i buy a 2007 boxxer race. i'm surprised, there is nothing inside my Motion Control !
i have no piston, no nyloc nut, just the LSC on the damper.
When i remove the LSC, i see just a long arm who turn the LSC. I don't dream, it's really empty !
I don't understand something ?
Thank you !
miuan -
Tried different grips? what are you running currently?
For people that are running ODI ruffians, I think changing to rogues can help. In terms of bars - oversize ones definitely don't help the case, I've found easton EA70's have enough give in them and are fairly comfortable. A 25.4 clamp carbon bar might do the trick too, but try a few before you decide - because some are very likely stiffer than others. Attack the grips first if you haven't already though.
meca06 -
The boxxer race doesn't come with the speedstack, that's why you don't see anything (and that's not a bad thing - the speedstack is detrimental to performance as this uber long thread concluded). The M5 nyloc nut was an idea of mine to allow you to adjust the floodgate on the boxxer race, because you don't get a floodgate adjuster on it either (whereas the team/world cup do) and that part is indeed beneficial. Read back a page or two for a posts by socket and I on how to do it.
Tried different grips? what are you running currently?
For people that are running ODI ruffians, I think changing to rogues can help. In terms of bars - oversize ones definitely don't help the case, I've found easton EA70's have enough give in them and are fairly comfortable. A 25.4 clamp carbon bar might do the trick too, but try a few before you decide - because some are very likely stiffer than others. Attack the grips first if you haven't already though.
meca06 -
The boxxer race doesn't come with the speedstack, that's why you don't see anything (and that's not a bad thing - the speedstack is detrimental to performance as this uber long thread concluded). The M5 nyloc nut was an idea of mine to allow you to adjust the floodgate on the boxxer race, because you don't get a floodgate adjuster on it either (whereas the team/world cup do) and that part is indeed beneficial. Read back a page or two for a posts by socket and I on how to do it.
i want to look at the floodgate and i mix up the speedstack valve...i'm very bad
oster_oops: You think the speestack is detrimental to performance ? Can you resume in 3 words ?
Thank you !
You mean explain it simply?
Okay - basically, the standard LSC assembly that you see at the base of the motion control cartridge (blue plate, silver piston) takes care of your LSC damping, and the floodgate (whether by external adjuster on team/wc or the nyloc nut trick on the race) allows you to set the point where the LSC starts becoming HSC. By HSC I mean the LSC damping regressing (ie. becoming less) as the shaft speed gets higher. Things that cause high shaft speeds are basically rocks, braking bumps, square edged hits - obviously you want less compression damping for these impacts.
So there, you've got a very successful compression damper that covers everything it needs to.
Now the blackbox speedstack just messes up this perfect relationship, because it sits in series (ie. oil has to pass through the speedstack AFTER passing through the main damper) and therefore adds MORE damping on top of whatever the standard damper does. This is very unnecessary, and basically ruins that nice LSC/HSC damping relationship that the standard damper achieves. So that's why we concluded it was wise to ditch it.
Hope that helps.
it's good for me, it's what i think since i see sam hill boxxer's in this vidéo.
look at sam hill speed boxxer's
i agree to your tuning with nyloc nut, since my Boxxer Race become to be very hard in big braking bump at high speed. In these shocks, i feel the hydrolic is going same a lock-out. I want to test it this week-end.
If i understand correctly after reading all the topic, the race without nyloc nut is same as floodgate closed on Team ?
Thank You
I guess the lack of understanding of gate LSC/HSC relation comes from the fact that only few people see that the black plastic tube works as a spring. Without this, there is no way they can understand the benefit of a nyloc nut in race MCU, apart from its possibility to open the damper permanently.
It's a bit OT but i just bought a boxxer team 07, it comes with tall crown.
So i would like to know if i should buy a lower crown(flat or drop, i dint understand the difference): i have to mount it on a sunday. I will mount it with a direct stem if this could help.
And maybe where could i order one online?
So i would like to know if i should buy a lower crown(flat or drop, i dint understand the difference): i have to mount it on a sunday. I will mount it with a direct stem if this could help.
And maybe where could i order one online?
Most dealers will give you a crown of your choice, drop (high) or flat (low). However, some won't. Riding a tall crown on a short headtube may cause higher stress to the fork, so you'd better run some spacers under your crown. This will rise your bar height as if you had a higher frame like I do.
Today I finally found some time to play with the stack. There were only 3 shims of same size, no 4th smaller shim to push them away from the orifices. First I wanted to take the whole stack thing away and leave only the blue female rod as a floodgate spacer. but I could not find a place in my garage where the stack could rest safely, so ended up leaving one of the shims there, just in case. so I still have some over-damping, but I believe just a tiny bit. What I was left alone with were 2 spare shims, so I just placed them onto the blue rod between the stack and the LSC assembly, together with one additional 1mm spacer. So I got a much softer floodgate range, with one FG knob turn of "LSC open" range. It's something like Fatty's nyloc mod. I might remove that spacer some day, but for now I am happy to be able to make my fork fully open for those days full of riding and hand fatigue.
That's weird that you had no 4th shim. Anyway, with one of the large shims still against the stack's piston, you're still not doing your damping any favours IMO because it's still adding a second compression curve on top of the existing one.
I'd just pull the whole stack out and then thread the blue hex rod back in, and see how that goes.
If you lose the thing and ever want to go back, I have literally 4 speedstacks (maybe 5) sitting on my desk that I'm sure I could mail out.
I'd just pull the whole stack out and then thread the blue hex rod back in, and see how that goes.
If you lose the thing and ever want to go back, I have literally 4 speedstacks (maybe 5) sitting on my desk that I'm sure I could mail out.
You're right. However, a single shim should blow off much easier then three in series. I cycled the fork on the floor a little and it finally behaves like it should, on full LSC it just blows off without that extra effort required before the stack tuning. I have yet to see what it does on the trail, guess I will try the full remove option as well at some point of time if I am not 100% satisfied.
One more question boxxer nerds. The manual on 2006 forks states 30cc oil in spring side stanchion. When I tried to pour it out of my 2007 Team, there was none. I refilled to 30cc as per manual but remain confused. Could the oil have got bound with spring grease?
Yeah very likely, the "oil soluble" grease as they call it would have just absorbed all the oil. I think it'd be a bright idea to run a bit of extra oil, or wipe off some excess grease... just to ensure there's always ~20ml of oil floating around to lube the bushings.
Misunderstood. I meant the oil INSIDE left stanchion. You probably meant oil in left lower. But manual says no oil there and I only found grease inside, also on the bushings, so I added some and let it go. Not sure why it is different to the damping side lower though.
Ah, no - the spring side stanchion isn't sealed at the base, so the oil in the left lower and oil in the left upper are one and the same.
That's why you can put 30ml in, because there's plenty of air volume to compress. If you put 30ml in the lower leg of the damper side (or lower leg of the air spring side in the world cup) you tend to blow seals as the internal pressure increases too much.
Well, I'm 95% sure anyway... it's been a while since I read the manual or opened up a team/race spring leg. But yeah, fairly sure it's open.
That's why you can put 30ml in, because there's plenty of air volume to compress. If you put 30ml in the lower leg of the damper side (or lower leg of the air spring side in the world cup) you tend to blow seals as the internal pressure increases too much.
Well, I'm 95% sure anyway... it's been a while since I read the manual or opened up a team/race spring leg. But yeah, fairly sure it's open.
Bit offtopic, do you think I can adjust fllodgate on a non-floodgate MC unit (Tora, Recon) the same way I did on the Boxxer Race? I am getting a used Tora for my commuting bike so I wonder, but I will try myself anyway as soon as I get it.
Dunno bout the Recons, but the Toras don't actually have any compression damping (at least, my 302 didn't). They just have a lockout that works in a similar way, but realistically that one's on or off.
ok question.. didnt wanna search thru all of this, but i dont remember my 07 WC having the foam rings in the seals.. so do they or not?
My team and race didnt but when i replaced the seals with pike seal they had the foam ring, so I used it and the seals lasted much longer without leaking oil.
those are the same seal set i got.. i left em out.. hm
I'm getting the 318 with solo air which actually has a MC damper with LSC dial, should be the same as Race MCU. I also wonder if any of these cheaper solo air forks use 'honed' stanchions.. or it's just a marketing trick to prevent boxxer race/team owners from upgrading to WC's just switching to the solo air assembly (worth 100 bucks).
There's definitely a difference in stanchions between race/team and WC, you can feel it when you slide the motion control cartridge in and out I reckon (much easier in the WC - it uses the honed stanchion both sides).
That's not to say it won't work if you pop the solo air assembly in the race/team leg (once it's lubed up I'd say the difference is negligible) but the bigger issue in my eyes would be the spring scratching up the stanchion in use before you put the solo air unit in. Steel vs hard anodizing, it might be okay really (especially if the spring isolators did their job well) but personally I wouldn't risk it if the fork had been used beforehand.
That's not to say it won't work if you pop the solo air assembly in the race/team leg (once it's lubed up I'd say the difference is negligible) but the bigger issue in my eyes would be the spring scratching up the stanchion in use before you put the solo air unit in. Steel vs hard anodizing, it might be okay really (especially if the spring isolators did their job well) but personally I wouldn't risk it if the fork had been used beforehand.
During my Team -> WC conversion I inspected the inside of stanchion. It had been used mildly for 1 season. There wasn't any visible damage. Moreover, note that the solo air assembly slides thru the lower area of the stanchion, unlike the coil spring, which sits at the upper area. Even if the spring did some damage to the stanchion, I am sure it would occur high enough not to affect any part of solo air assy o-ring travel.
The question that still remains, although there is no doubt the honed stanchions do a good thing to the fork's performance, can you actually find them in the other RS solo air forks like tora/recon?
The question that still remains, although there is no doubt the honed stanchions do a good thing to the fork's performance, can you actually find them in the other RS solo air forks like tora/recon?
I doubt anyone here knows. The only way to find out is to check the parts listings, and see if the stanchion/crown/steerer assembly is different for the solo air fork in question. Of course to compare them there would have to be a coil fork in the range that has the same material steerer etc.
In the case of the boxxer the stanchion is a different part number and is labeled "honed" so something like that will probably give it away.
Sorry to bring this one up... But I have a pretty ignorant question.
Can I dump a Speedstack inside a Pike?
Also, does the rebound piston on a WC is any different to the one on the Pike/Revelation series?
thank you!
Can I dump a Speedstack inside a Pike?
Also, does the rebound piston on a WC is any different to the one on the Pike/Revelation series?
thank you!
No you can't install the stack in the pike, but basically - the speedstack is only detrimental to performance. A stock pike damper achieves the correct shape/range of compression damper curves because it has the compression adjuster and floodgate (nothing more). This thread was about bringing the boxxer team/wc to that state (removing speedstack) as well as the race (adding internal floodgate control).
As for the rebound piston, I'm not sure... I have both forks but can't be stuffed taking the pike rebound damper out to compare. From pics I've seen in the past though, I think they may be a little different - but don't quote me on that.
As for the rebound piston, I'm not sure... I have both forks but can't be stuffed taking the pike rebound damper out to compare. From pics I've seen in the past though, I think they may be a little different - but don't quote me on that.