[Straya]

Doesn't pull many punches, its a long article but worth a read.

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/coverstory/make_believe_maverick_the_real_john_mccain/page/1

 

[sanjuro]

boy what a slam job.

McCain was not only a lousy student, he had his father's taste for drink and a darkly misogynistic streak. The summer after his sophomore year, cruising with a friend near Arlington, McCain tried to pick up a pair of young women. When they laughed at him, he cursed them so vilely that he was hauled into court on a profanity charge.

 

[Defenestrated]

that is pretty brutal

 

[sanjuro]

Here is another objective opinion from RS:

Here's what Sarah Palin represents: being a fat ****ing pig who pins "Country First" buttons on his man titties and chants "U-S-A! U-S-A!" at the top of his lungs while his kids live off credit cards and Saudis buy up all the mortgages in Kansas.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Yep, that was brutal.

...but truth be told, every recent "flop" he's made has only revitalized his base.. which is I suppose the point of the article. Catching the guy in inconsistencies, obviously, has been an ineffective criticism thus far.

 

[Defenestrated]

:epic:

 

[Silver]

Yep, that was brutal.

...but truth be told, every recent "flop" he's made has only revitalized his base.. which is I suppose the point of the article. Catching the guy in inconsistencies, obviously, has been an ineffective criticism thus far.

Except the base seems to have shrunk this time. At this point, it's pretty much evangelicals, conservative think tank writers, and retards like Trig and N8.

 

[Silver]

Here is another objective opinion from RS:

Matt Taibbi is a goddamn national treasure.

I think he hates Americans more than I do...

 

[stevew]

Did you all hate him this much in 04?

He's the same cunt you loved back then.




edit.....and fvck jan wenner and his sh*tty rag.

 

[JohnE]

I was a McCain guy back in 04...prolly more of a anti-Bush thing than anything else. But now he is too old, too crazy, and has pandered too much to the people who propped up Bush back then(Rove et al...), in order to get into position to solidify his "legacy". Plus, his pick of a wanna be prom queen as his VPOTUS candidate has only solidified my intent to vote for someone else...

Read the article Friday...good read, totally slanted, but a good read nonetheless.

 

[AngryMetalsmith]

and retards like Trig and N8.

Nice Silver, real nice, making fun of someone with a mental disability.

 

[stevew]

Nice Silver, real nice, making fun of someone with a mental disability.

whatever happened to the colorful phrases like mouth breather?

 

[AngryMetalsmith]

whatever happened to the colorful phrases like mouth breather?

...replaced by the phrase NASCAR.

 

[Silver]

Did you all hate him this much in 04?

He's the same cunt you loved back then.

I liked him somewhat before he kowtowed to the religious right and gave Bush (and Rove, by extension) that faggot hug.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled hate of the spook...

 

[stevew]

Now, back to your regularly scheduled hate of the spook...

Me?

No.

 

[jimmydean]

Nice Silver, real nice, making fun of someone with a mental disability.

Silver can do that. It's like black guys using the n-word.

 

[kidwoo]

Did you all hate him this much in 04?

He's the same cunt you loved back then.

No he's definitely a GENUINELY different cunt now.

 

[Skookum]

Drivel....

 

[sanjuro]

No he's definitely a GENUINELY different cunt now.

Yeah, I didn't know who Palin was in 2004.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Except the base seems to have shrunk this time. At this point, it's pretty much evangelicals, conservative think tank writers, and retards like Trig and N8.

...and thank god for that. Bad part is I really thought McCain was a decent guy (as far as politicians go) until the last two years. He could've walked away with this thing, but now unless there's some video of Obama chanting in arabic and praying to the east that comes out, McCain hasn't a chance in hell of winning.
And Im actually surprised by the stupidity of republicans getting so behind this Palin character. I mean... what an idiot. If the GOP hitches their horse to that wagon, I dont think they'll be winning any elections for a while.

 

[N8 v2.0]

i'm voting for the courts this time... mccain & obama occupy different wing of the same asylum.

if only the media hadnt selected mccain for the gop, romeny would be teh man..

 

[johnbryanpeters]

And what would qualify Romney as less of a butt whore than McCain?

Ahhh... Don't bother, it's all been played before.

 

[N8 v2.0]

And what would qualify Romney as less of a butt whore than McCain?

Ahhh... Don't bother, it's all been played before.

:yawn:

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-virginia5-2008oct05,0,7655182.story

 

[3D.]

:yawn:

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-virginia5-2008oct05,0,7655182.story

the type of rhetoric used by unions at their evening rallies is hardly a gauge of substance. I grew up in a heavily unionized area, those workers will vote exactly as their head dick tells them too. The workers generally do very little, if not -zero-, research on who they are voting for and why.

Unions are a dying breed that are completely non-sustainable with very expensive and poor production results. They will be written out of the history books when even nyse’s “new” circuit breaker settings can’t hold back the point drops.

 

[N8 v2.0]

the type of rhetoric used by unions at their evening rallies is hardly a gauge of substance. I grew up in a heavily unionized area, those workers will vote exactly as their head dick tells them too. The workers generally do very little, if not -zero-, research on who they are voting for and why.

Unions are a dying breed that are completely non-sustainable with very expensive and poor production results. They will be written out of the history books when even nyse’s “new” circuit breaker settings can’t hold back the point drops.

it's only slightly more relevant than a bit of anti-mccain propaganda from rolling stone magazine..

 

[Straya]

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-virginia5-2008oct05,0,7655182.story

Funniest thing I've read in a long time.

"I've never been prejudiced in my life," said Sharon Fleming, 69, the wife of a retired coal miner, who spends hours at the union hall calling voters on behalf of Obama. "My niece married a black, and I don't have a problem with it. Now, I wouldn't want a mixed marriage for my daughter, but I'm voting for Obama."

or the saddest, I can't really tell.

it's only slightly more relevant than a bit of anti-mccain propaganda from rolling stone magazine..

Yeah the certainly don't like him. But is any of it inaccurate?

 

[sanjuro]

:yawn:

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-virginia5-2008oct05,0,7655182.story

I thought that was a very interesting article. Most people won't discuss race openly, and I appreciate hearing what other people, particularly in a state I haven't spent much time in, have to say.

 

[N8 v2.0]

I thought that was a very interesting article. Most people won't discuss race openly, and I appreciate hearing what other people, particularly in a state I haven't spent much time in, have to say.

posted that cuz isnt that the area where JBP is from..???

 

[Samirol]

Unions are a dying breed that are completely non-sustainable with very expensive and poor production results. They will be written out of the history books when even nyse’s “new” circuit breaker settings can’t hold back the point drops.

Actually, unionized workers are more efficient than non-unionized workers. Unions will only be written out of the books when workers stop fighting for better working conditions, benefits, and wages.

 

[ohio]

Actually, unionized workers are more efficient than non-unionized workers.

Care to support that statement?

 

[Samirol]

Care to support that statement?

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070801/BUSINESS01/708010420

The Harbour Report showed that Toyota Motor Corp. was No. 1 in manufacturing efficiency in North America, taking just 29.93 labor hours to produce one vehicle. That includes not only assembly, but parts stamping and building of engines and transmissions. Detroit's automakers trail Toyota on that overall number, with 32.36 hours for GM, 32.90 for Chrysler and 35.10 for Ford.

But in the 12 categories allowing head-to-head comparisons, union plants were usually tops. UAW or CAW plants were the most efficient in all but one of those categories.

And although Toyota had the best overall number on a corporate basis -- largely due to its much more efficient stamping, engine and transmission plants -- none of Toyota's nonunion assembly plants in North America won a top spot.

There is also an oxford economic journal that says it is more efficient, but I do not have access to it beyond the first couple paragraphs. I just want to remind 3D that the burden of proof lies on him to prove that unions are inefficient beyond anecdotes.

 

[kidwoo]

Good thing the auto industry contains every union scenario in existence which fully enables you to make the blanket claim you made.


wait what?

 

[Samirol]

Good thing the auto industry contains every union scenario in existence which fully enables you to make the blanket claim you made.


wait what?

I just showed one example, and since the auto unions are often used as an argument of why unions are supposedly bad, it is fitting. Unions are an undeniable good to the country. For example, states that handicap unions aka "right to work" states, are praised as good because it gets limits union power.

However, right to work laws lower wages for everyone. The average worker in a right to work state makes about $5,333 a year less than workers in other states ($35,500 compared with $30,167). Weekly wages are $72 greater in free-bargaining states than in right to work states ($621 versus $549). Working families in states without right to work laws have higher wages and benefit from healthier tax bases that improve their quality of life.

 

[sanjuro]

Good thing the auto industry contains every union scenario in existence which fully enables you to make the blanket claim you made.

wait what?

I think in industries with measurable definables, like the car industry, Samirol's article is relevant.

Of course, you could mention many cases where unions protect the lazy and the stupid. Interbike comes right to mind.

I think at least with production industries where it is easy to measure productivity, you could argue that union shops are better.

 

[kidwoo]

I think in industries with measurable definables, like the car industry, Samirol's article is relevant.

Of course, you could mention many cases where unions protect the lazy and the stupid. Interbike comes right to mind.

I think at least with production industries where it is easy to measure productivity, you could argue that union shops are better.

Yeah interbike is kind of funny that way.

But it's nothing compared to the waste of resources I've seen from a company I oversee for their operating license.

We fly into wilderness areas (helicopter landing permits are not cheap) to check dam functions and there are FIVE guys from our cooperator to do what I do by myself every day. So what ends up happening is four guys sit around most of the day, while one meets with me to discuss 'his' particular aspect of discharge and reservoir storage record acquisition. It's the most inefficient thing I've ever seen in my life. These are educated people, each capable of doing the others' job. But that's the division of labor dictated by the union.

So my point is only this: You can't really say unions as a whole are either efficient or inefficient under the blanket term. Samirol has one good reason for one side but there are others that indicate the contrary. Some are beneficial, some are the opposite.

 

[Samirol]

There are anecdotes that say that they can be inefficient, but anecdotes don't matter. In nearly all cases, unions increase productivity, increase wages, increase benefits, and unions are beneficial to the community. I have not seen one piece of evidence beyond anecdotal stories that unions are inefficient.

and from the Journal of Labor Research:

Researchers have accumulated considerable evidence indicating that unionization can increase total factor productivity in firms. Studies on this question, which yield positive productivity effects of from 6 to 20 percent include those by Mandelstamm (1965), Frantz (1976), Brown and Medoff (1978), Clark (1980a, 1980b), and Allen (forthcoming).

 

[kidwoo]

There are anecdotes that say that they can be inefficient, but anecdotes don't matter.

Oh okay.



Got anything released with citations from the last 20 years?



You're arguing a black and white viewpoint. Just generally speaking you know where that leads right?

 

[Samirol]

Oh okay.



Got anything released with citations from the last 20 years?



You're arguing a black and white viewpoint. Just generally speaking you know where that leads right?

Anecdotes don't matter in a debate that is about efficiency, the numbers do. The Free Press article was released in 2007. Nearly all cases isn't black and white, it leaves room for outliers. The point of me referencing the Journal of Labor Research is that it shows that there is a consistent productivity increase when the workers are unionized. Since productivity is determined by numbers, stories are irrelevant because they are not based on numbers.

 

[kidwoo]

My anecdote is based on numbers.

7 guys don't fit in one helicopter. When I'm watching 5 others getting paid more than me to do the minutia of what I and several other companies do with one body, it's inefficient. This company has been unionized for so long, I don't even know if there would be data for pre-union efficiency numbers. I do the same things with other companies that don't operate under this division of labor, union- mandated setup. It may be an anecdote but it's entirely applicable when all I need is one contradictory example.


I'm not discounting your citations. I'm just saying that I've seen the other side. Do me a favor and look up union/non municipal power companies in california. Find the same results and I'll shut up.


Or just use the phrases 'generally', 'typically' or 'mostly' and we're all good.

 

[Changleen]

Toyota isn't efficient because they're unionized, they're efficient because they're Nippon.