I don't think that word means what you think it means.....
Very uncomplementary McCain article
- Thread starter Straya
- Start date
Look, we're in agreement that unions are often necessary to protect workers and communities, and are the result of abusive employers.
However, you can't tell me you don't see the obvious fallacy in the using the above argument. Of course if you're comparing a shop's efficiency before and after it is unionized you will see an increase in efficiency. There's probably a reason they unionized and I'm sure they were of significantly higher morale after unionizing. Now compare it generationally... how does the productivity of the next generation of workers, who never knew non-union conditions compare? Toyota IS an anecdote, so you've got to ****ing kidding me if your going to toss around that argument while barring it from the opposition. You know what enough anecdotes make? A data set.
It doesn't require data (though if I can find it I will) to understand logically and almost by definition, why a set of satisfied, high-morale workers will be more efficient in a non-union scenario than a union scenario. A well-run company can simulate all of the benefits of a unionized work-force without many of the downsides. Just because it often doesn't happen that a company is well-run doesn't make it any less true by definition.
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not sure what youre basing this assumption on, but it's completely unfounded. In construction, 400 union workers will produce the work of 200 private mechanics and bill for the work of 600
AFLCIO and the UAW?
the Harbour Report and the Journal of Labor Research
Sorry ohio I missed this post, the Harbour report examined the most efficient factories, and it found that the shops that were unionized were more efficient than non-unionized companies. Yes, if enough anecdotes are compiled, then it is a data set, but saying "well, at my work..." isn't acceptable, since it doesn't look at the big picture. Unions, from all the data that I've seen, are not the inefficient wage stealing mafia rings that the right portrays them as.
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That really is a bit of a stretch, generalization, and is certainly a blanket statement. Certainly not n8 level, but I'm going to have to see alot more data to believe that Unions are more efficient. I know that engineering design casts a ~70% of a shadow of the actual manufacturing process, hence why DFM&A is so important so there can be many more factors that can come into play in plant efficiency.
Well, that says that at least in the case of automobile factories, that unionized factories, at least in the auto business, are more efficient than non-unionized. All the studies that I've seen points to unions overall being more efficient, I wouldn't say that based just off of those studies alone that unions are more efficient, though, since that would be silly.
I chose the UAW because they are specifically picked as the downfall of GM by many of the far right, and that directly contradicts their claims that they are lazy and inefficient. It does not mean that every union is efficient, but from the wealth of information that I've seen, most unions increase efficiency. If there is anything that says otherwise, I would love to look at it, so I can revise my statements and views to be more rational and correct.
this may be relevant if the employment rates between the right to work and the free bargaining states were the same, which they aren't (gee, i wonder why?)
counterintuitively, this is better for everyone (save for the guy who gets the invoice for 600)
...says the 6-fingered pipe fitter
Actually, that isn't the case. From 2001 to 2006, right-to-work states had an average unemployment rate that was .3 percent lower than the average for non-right-to-work states. That is pretty close considering how much it supposedly kills businesses.
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ah yes, i made the asinine assumption that people don't move to where the jobs are.
say, why does detroit lay off while toyota hires? i know it's "because they have to"; but why do they have to? why are toyotas freer of defects than detroit cars [ed: and made in fewer man-hours]?
I haven't read that Toyota's American factories have less defects than GM's American factories. Most car companies are hurting during these hard times, GM's sales are down 16%, Toyota's are down nearly 30%, and Ford's are down nearly 35%. I can't imagine Toyota is doing too much hiring right now.
edit: the report says "And although Toyota had the best overall number on a corporate basis -- largely due to its much more efficient stamping, engine and transmission plants"
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Google isn't turning up anything, just a bunch of problems with different Toyota models. I wouldn't doubt it if I saw an article about it, though, but I doubt that it is because the factories aren't unionized.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0060974176/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-link
This is why Toyota has kicked everyone's ass. I know I've mentioned this book before. But The Machine that Changed the World spells it out pretty clearly.
Yes their plants are more efficient. But their whole way of doing business is more efficient. They don't outources things to the lowest bidder, and then 6 month later, change vendors because the a $2 cheaper. The find a vendor and stick with them. They enter into partnerships. Profits are shared. Everyone is rowing in the same direction. Unlike the wetern mentality of doing your best to "stick it" to your vendor.
Obviously there's a lot more to it, but that's a big part of it.
This is why Toyota has kicked everyone's ass. I know I've mentioned this book before. But The Machine that Changed the World spells it out pretty clearly.
Yes their plants are more efficient. But their whole way of doing business is more efficient. They don't outources things to the lowest bidder, and then 6 month later, change vendors because the a $2 cheaper. The find a vendor and stick with them. They enter into partnerships. Profits are shared. Everyone is rowing in the same direction. Unlike the wetern mentality of doing your best to "stick it" to your vendor.
Obviously there's a lot more to it, but that's a big part of it.
I've also said THIS before. Bell Helicopter in Mirabel, where they make all civil machines is not unionized. They do not feel that they need to be.
Same with Toyota. The company looks out for their people without having it imposed.
lol @ the idea that the world only exists on google...