[patconnole]

I don't have tv, so maybe this is on the news, or maybe it's nothing, but it caught my attention. I saw the link to it on australiannews.net , I pasted the first paragraph below.




http://atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/DL12Ak01.html

THE ROVING EYE
Internal look, imminent war
By Pepe Escobar

There's growing indication now that a massive US attack against Iraq is practically set for January, no matter what is contained in Iraq's weapons declaration and no matter what United Nations inspectors find out on the ground. An ambassador to the UN who insisted on remaining anonymous assured Asia Times Online that "at any moment we could be facing an official statement from the White House saying Iraq is in material breach of Resolution 1441. We are all helpless against it at the UN."

 

[bikebabe]

And this is supposed to be secret??? I heard the same thing a few months ago before the weapons inspection resumed. Apparently the ideal time to attack Iraq is in the winter months because of the weather. The soldiers will be forced to wear a lot of protective gear against chem/bio agents which is like wearing a plastic bag...and miserable in the heat of summer. The thought was that by attacking in winter, the war would be over by summer. Maybe that sheds some light on why our administration wasn't keen on the delay caused by reviving the weapons inspection program. Let's just put it this way, if the US decided to attack Iraq today, they could without much scrambling to mobilize troops or set strategy.

 

[Rotifer]

I'm not a fan of the current administration, but I would rate this article less than reputable. Key bits of his information are gleaned from either anonymous sources or "buzz". Uh, o.k.

 

[patconnole]

I agree about the "buzz" and "anonymous" references being less than reputable, but you find these words in every news source.

The quote about ....."we're helpless against it" seemed a little too romantic to be true, but the info on Colin Powel in Colombia pulling a quid pro quo deal seemed..... well, interesting.


In either case, the "buzz" is probably true-- and we'll probably see a US led coalition, consisting of the US, and maybe the UK come january.


I can't wait for Operation Oily-Residue to begin!!!!! whoops, I mean, "Operation: Save the Iraqi People, and Saddam Sucks! Oh yeah, and he's got nukes, I swear!!"

yeah, I can't wait for that operation to start.



In the "Panama Deception" they mention the UN voted our invasion was illegal, or against UN charter...... but the vote received little press here (and why would it...) And I've heard the same about a unilateral Iraq invasion. I wonder what they'll do if we decide to go in there alone.... probably nothing---- the UN become's irrellevant.

 

[Rotifer]

Anonymous yes, buzz - no. Well, maybe in People but not in the NYT. But I agree with you about the impending attack, they are looking for every reason to do so. Sh*t, they appointed Henry "Asswipe" Kissinger to head the panel investigating the 9/11 attacks. There is fair evidence to try him for crimes against humanity. Think he'll balk at pinning blame on Iraq?

http://www.hrw.org/iff/2002/ny/trials.html

 

[bikebabe]

"buzz" about a winter attack and troop movement is definitely going strong in the defense sector...from people who should know. That doesn't mean an attack is going to happen but if Bush really wants to "Kick Saddam's A**", like his dad failed to do, then it would be strategically better for our troops to attack in winter and the military is gearing up for that possibility. The other stuff I haven't heard about. frankly, I don't understand why ANY of this is in the media. I'd leave my enemy guessing as much as possible.

The Kissinger panel...another appointment I just don't get.

 

[Rotifer]

frankly, I don't understand why ANY of this is in the media. I'd leave my enemy guessing as much as possible.

Purely an amateur opinion but I think there are a few reasons the Pentagon bureaucrats leak information. One reason is control, information is going to slip out so they'd rather spin it in the direction they choose. Another is to keep Iraq on edge. One can imagine we (the U.S.) scans their country from top to bottom every few hours with satellites, aircraft and ground teams. Every time they get nervous and shift troops or weapons we have a better idea of deployment and strength. Were I in charge I'd have a fast attack group on mountain bikes ...

 

[bikebabe]

Originally posted by Rotifer
Were I in charge I'd have a fast attack group on mountain bikes ...

Funny you mention that....I think an old thread on here showed pictures of mountain bikes that were used in Afghanistan. Imagine how hard it would be to shoot riding though....unless you turned it into a Bond bike with firing shifters.

I agree with your spin on a purposeful leak of information by one source, such as the presidency...and I probably overstated and overgeneralized my opinion about leaks. However, I work in the defense industry and have been surprised how much information is freely available and also given out with the "don't tell anyone, it's classified but...". My experience is that there are a lot of people willing to talk, not just Pentagon bureaucrats, with no purpose other than to bolster their ego or to show you how much they know, who should keep their mouths shut. These are the leaks I object to.

 

[Rotifer]

Let's see ... people I've met in the defense industry and military that inspired fear for our country's future. Well, people in said professions I respected - that's a more manageable figure. I'm not as cynical as that sounds, but I understand what you are saying. What do you do (expecting the answer, "I shan't tell you.")?

 

[N8 v2.0]

Something is gonna happen soon I think. Our local bike club has quite a few guys in the military Reserves who were called up this month... In fact we are having a Military Member's Ride on the 21st (on the Monkey Trail* no less!!!) to get in one last ride before every one is shipped out.

*The Monkey Trail is located in a park designated as a Chimp Haven: http://www.chimphaven.org/

Oh... by the way.... all Monkeys are WELCOME to ride there!!!!!!!

 

[patconnole]

Question for ya'all:


So, it appears, if a war is coming-- it doesn't seem to be about disarming, because we've been planning an attack and practicing war games before the inspectors have said anything. Aren't the inspectors there to see if they've disarmed? So, what is this war about? In simple terms, isn't it oil? I pretty much take that for granted, but do you guys? If you agree, then are you pissed?


IT PISSES ME OFF, and I'm trying to figure out ways to get other people pissed, so we can figure out a way to stop it---- Or, learn why I shouldn't be pissed, and support the war. But currently, I'M PISSED and I want to stop it.

 

[N8 v2.0]

I wonder about just how naive folks are* if they think that Saddam Hussein all of a sudden quits production of Weapons of Mass Destruction that he has been developing for 20+ years just because we have (what? 70?) UN inspectors poking around his country?

Come on kids… get real. The guy will continue to develop weapons and gladly sell/give them to anyone wanting to bring death and destruction to the US. I think this is a golden opportunity to end his reign and set up a democratic society further securing peace and stability in the region. Military action is required to do this because he just won’t give up power voluntarily.

He will gladly supply nuke or germ weapons to a terrorist group who would love to get it into the US and detonate it if he is allowed to continue unobstructed. It could be your city…

*See earlier eBay fraud post…lol

 

[Rotifer]

Weapons (including biological agents) could be obtained from myriad sources other than Iraq - the world doesn't lack for organizations wishing to bring the U.S. to its knees and money talks in the former Soviet Bloc. No, I think it has a great deal to do with oil, Iraqi reserves and reserves located in the peripheral countries that could be served by a new pipeline. Consider, were you a terrorist would you try to sneak in to Iraq to negotiate an arms deal?


A few interesting articles.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/nonopec.html

http://www.worldwiseworldwide.com/GeoFacts/energy-1.shtml

http://www.brook.edu/views/op-ed/hillf/20020415.htm

 

[patconnole]

I can't remember who said it, but somebody said that Saddam wouldn't give his weapons away if he had 'em. It's more about the possession of them, part of the image of power and control he wants..... and I doubt he'd just "give 'em away" to somebody who also hates the US... He wants to maintain his "soverienty", moreso than he wants to attack the US. This is why many people balk at the idea that he has any connection to 9/11, and also why it's so hard for Team War to provide any evidence of a connection..... because there isn't any (as far as I know).

I'm speaking out of my ass here, but my impression of Saddam is that of a bully who wants to be the coolest, toughest kid on the block---- and that is goal number one. He has no priority interest in attacking, or "waking the sleeping giant" on the other side of town...

From that reasoning, I don't, and I've never considered Iraq a threat to the US. However, because of his invasion of Kuwait, he is a threat to our resources: OIL.



Yeah, "installing" a democratic government would be great, if that was our priority--- but it never has been.

 

[fluff]

Originally posted by patconnole

Yeah, "installing" a democratic government would be great, if that was our priority--- but it never has been.

Plus which it wouldn't stick. Islamic culture is not designed to operate around the Western idea of a democratic government. Although it's worth remembering that Saddam's regime is far from an Islamic ideal also.

One reason is that Islam is not easily compatible with the concept of Nation-states. In theory Islamic law is higher than state law (pretty much similar to the operation of the Roman Catholic church about 500 years ago).

 

[Sideways]

blah blah blah blah.
Oil!

 

[Rotifer]

Oi, Oi!!

 

[rbx]

i wonder how their understaffed underfunded ER rooms will be like during/after the war but hey its all in the name of oil eehhh i mean freedom and democratie yeah thats its freedom and democratie

 

[manimal]

Originally posted by rbx
i wonder how their understaffed underfunded ER rooms will be like during/after the war but hey its all in the name of oil eehhh i mean freedom and democratie yeah thats its freedom and democratie

Something is up. just 2 days after i signed my contract to give the navy a try the marines sent me a letter stating that i had been called back to full active duty and had to report in 2 weeks. (so, after some serious explaining.....)

anyway, if i come back from this war to a post-vietnam-ish country where noone respects what we did over there (whatever the outcome), i'm going to start beating the crap out of all the anti-war hippies! all of these so called "educated" college kids should spend a day or two on the border of ethiopia and eritrea when they're pissed at each other, your view of world events will take on a whole new perspective.

 

[Eddie420]

Firstly manimal what did the Vietnam war achieve???NOTHING all it did was kill people. I certainly acknowledge that many US and allied soldiers suffered horrendously and died as well as the conscripted that didn't want to go but forced to their doom. I have great respect for them.

THINK!!!!!!!! what you are fighting for. Of cause the educated people don't want to fight because they realise it's DUMB! You're fighting for OIL don't bash the peace loving.

 

[Sideways]

Originally posted by manimal
anyway, if i come back from this war to a post-vietnam-ish country where noone respects what we did over there (whatever the outcome), i'm going to start beating the crap out of all the anti-war hippies! all of these so called "educated" college kids should spend a day or two on the border of ethiopia and eritrea when they're pissed at each other, your view of world events will take on a whole new perspective.

Don’t come back feeling all righteous about securing big oil profits.
As a non driving, local buying, anti-war, educated college grad, I won’t give a fu ck.

 

[rbx]

Originally posted by manimal
Something is up. just 2 days after i signed my contract to give the navy a try the marines sent me a letter stating that i had been called back to full active duty and had to report in 2 weeks. (so, after some serious explaining.....)

anyway, if i come back from this war to a post-vietnam-ish country where noone respects what we did over there (whatever the outcome), i'm going to start beating the crap out of all the anti-war hippies! all of these so called "educated" college kids should spend a day or two on the border of ethiopia and eritrea when they're pissed at each other, your view of world events will take on a whole new perspective.

hippies what hippies dude my country saw a 25 year war...imagine 3 different ethnic groups and 3 different armys destroying themself in a place smaller than california...you want to piss in your pants go serve on frontlines between lebanese/isarel border then will talk whos the hippie

 

[patconnole]

It ain't about the soldiers, it's about the people in charge, directing them. I support people in the military, and those who follow their orders---- but it's just as patriotic, and as important for those not in the chain of command to question and understand the motives of those in power.

Even after going to "college", where people are "educated", I don't see how a day or two in a conflict zone in Ethiopa would help me support a war for oil. Yes, my view of world events would change, definitely, but would it make me more supportive of war? Less questioning of the motives behind those pushing for it? I hope not. War sucks, right?

 

[Dirt rider]

Originally posted by rbx
hippies what hippies dude my country saw a 25 year war...imagine 3 different ethnic groups and 3 different armys destroying themself in a place smaller than california...you want to piss in your pants go serve on frontlines between lebanese/isarel border then will talk whos the hippie

umm when did that happen I dont remember reading bout such a conflict?

 

[SlackBoy]

Well you can bet your sweet ass that if the Us INVADES Iraq and replaces Saddam with someone else, like the did the first time, that I will do my bit and lob a few paint bombs over the US Embassy wall in Wellington. ***gratitous wave to the guys in echelon who will see this message and put my name onto a list somewhere***

 

[Tweek]

Originally posted by SlackBoy
Well you can bet your sweet ass that if the Us INVADES Iraq and replaces Saddam with someone else, like the did the first time, that I will do my bit and lob a few paint bombs over the US Embassy wall in Wellington. ***gratitous wave to the guys in echelon who will see this message and put my name onto a list somewhere***

Great, a militant Kiwi.
Violence begets violence begets violence, Ace.

 

[SlackBoy]

naw, I'm just a simple man. I see the example that the US has shown me, and it has inspired me to show some of the same behaviour. If it makes people such as Damn True feel anybetter, I'll wear a uniform. I'll initiate a bombing riad, not in a plane, but on a bike. Ill even have the flag painted on my bike so as they know it's a kiwi that just paint bombed them. for the US has shown me the way, they have led by example

 

[Tweek]

The fact that you kid about lobbing bombs at innocent people certainly does prove you are SIMPLE.

I'll try to act surprised when some of your brains are removed by a sharpshooter during your attempt.

 

[manimal]

Originally posted by SlackBoy
naw, I'm just a simple man. I see the example that the US has shown me, and it has inspired me to show some of the same behaviour. If it makes people such as Damn True feel anybetter, I'll wear a uniform. I'll initiate a bombing riad, not in a plane, but on a bike. Ill even have the flag painted on my bike so as they know it's a kiwi that just paint bombed them. for the US has shown me the way, they have led by example

What a tool.

 

[Damn True]

Originally posted by SlackBoy
naw, I'm just a simple man. I see the example that the US has shown me, and it has inspired me to show some of the same behaviour. If it makes people such as Damn True feel anybetter, I'll wear a uniform. I'll initiate a bombing riad, not in a plane, but on a bike. Ill even have the flag painted on my bike so as they know it's a kiwi that just paint bombed them. for the US has shown me the way, they have led by example

Fear the kiwis!


LOL, stick to sailboats and buggaring sheep. It's what ya'all are good at. Don't ya worry though. If your country ever needs help we'll bail you out. It's what we are good at.

 

[SlackBoy]

Nay I say fear the americans, for they are unable to see thru the veils of sarcasm, they see everything at face value and are unable to see anything beneath that, Fear the american for that very fact. **yes folks that is a generalization**
The thought that you took that as serious scares me just about as much as the fact the Geaorge Dubya was able to gts his hands on so much power
Obviously your milatarised minds are unable to see the point that I was getting at thru a thinly disguised veil of humour.

 

[Damn True]

I know your comment was sarcastic. So was mine.
Of course not all New Zelanders are good at sailing.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Originally posted by Sideways
Don’t come back feeling all righteous about securing big oil profits.
As a non driving, local buying, anti-war, educated college grad, I won’t give a fu ck.

Of course you wont.

What have you got to worry about?

You can be as anti-whatever as you want, and guys like manimal will go and fight for it. He may die so you can keep whining all the time about how bad it all is. Try it in China sometime.

 

[patconnole]

Originally posted by BurlySurly
Of course you wont.

What have you got to worry about?

You can be as anti-whatever as you want, and guys like manimal will go and fight for it. He may die so you can keep whining all the time about how bad it all is. Try it in China sometime.

What will guys like manimal be fighting for? Does it have anything at all, even remotely related to securing our right to whine?

If we had been attacked by Iraq, or if Iraq was somehow involved with 9/11..... then yeah, I think we could drum up the "glory" of fighting for our freedoms.... but our freedoms aren't under attack by Iraq. Are they?

Yes, soldiers may die in Iraq..... but what does that have to do with securing some freedoms in the U.S.? (if that's what you're saying.)

 

[BurlyShirley]

Originally posted by patconnole
What will guys like manimal be fighting for? Does it have anything at all, even remotely related to securing our right to whine?

That's not my point.

Manimal will only be doing his job, fighting for the country, regardless of how he feels about the current situation. Many people take that fact for granted every day. They're so chocked full of anti-government sentiment, that they fail to recognize the work that goes into keeping it the country we call home.

They wont give a FU@# because they're so bent on not conforming that they fail to recognize the sacrifice made by others for their sake.

It truly is sad.

 

[fluff]

Originally posted by BurlySurly
That's not my point.

Manimal will only be doing his job, fighting for the country, regardless of how he feels about the current situation. Many people take that fact for granted every day. They're so chocked full of anti-government sentiment, that they fail to recognize the work that goes into keeping it the country we call home.

They wont give a FU@# because they're so bent on not conforming that they fail to recognize the sacrifice made by others for their sake.

It truly is sad.

It seems to me that fighting for your country has become more a case of fighting for the interests of big business. Not the same thing.

And before any military personnel go ballistic I would say that I think it is possible to think a war is morally wrong without condemning the personnel who follow orders because they believe thay are fighting for their country and way of life. I just don't agree that that is what this war would be about.

 

[N8 v2.0]

(API): This week Pan Am reentered the airline market under new management and announced it will begin regularly scheduled flights to Iraq, Iran, and other key destinations in the Middle East. PanAm also announced it may consider adding N. Korea to it's routes at a future date.

See Newsphoto release-

 

[fluff]

Originally posted by N8
(API): This week Pan Am reentered the airline market under new management and announced it will begin regularly scheduled flights to Iraq, Iran, and other key destinations in the Middle East. PanAm also announced it may consider adding N. Korea to it's routes at a future date.

See Newsphoto release-

I'd be more worried about the stealth bomber in the foreground.

 

[N8 v2.0]

Stealth B-2's are nothing compaired to the B-52 buck-o...

The old B.U.F.F. can carry cruise missiles, iron bombs, JDAMS etc... and can operate out of any place that has a runway long enough for it un like the B-2.

It is one heck of a platform considering the last one was built in 1963... not everything old is outdated ya know.....

 

[fluff]

Originally posted by N8
Stealth B-2's are nothing compaired to the B-52 buck-o...

The old B.U.F.F. can carry cruise missiles, iron bombs, JDAMS etc... and can operate out of any place that has a runway long enough for it un like the B-2.

It is one heck of a platform considering the last one was built in 1963... not everything old is outdated ya know.....

Ah well, that joke was wasted then....