[onelostsoul21]

has anyone seen that stupid bitch on the girls NY college b-ball team from iraq(i think)? she turns her back to the American flag when the national anthem is played. a military vet went and held an American flag in front of her when she had her back turned and he was kicked out of the game. she thinks this country is just ..."ok"
i say kick her dirty ass out of this country....how long are we gonna be a bunch of passive pussies!!!????

 

[Silver]

Yeah, god forbid anyone have an opinion. America, love it or leave it!

 

[henrymiller]

Lets, hear it for misogyny and being a racist. Go Team.

mat

 

[onelostsoul21]

yeah i figured i would get that kind of response.....YOU go team!!!!

 

[LordOpie]

I find it ironic that the same people who'll turn their back on the Flag and all that it means take advantage of what it means. How can one demand the freedoms this country offers, especially free speech, while rejecting this country and those freedoms. Would that be the definition of a hypocrit?

Don't get me wrong, it's ok to criticize our country, but you can't if you reject the right to criticize.

 

[Serial Midget]

I thought her ass was totally HOT. Yeah, Baby! OH!

 

[LordOpie]

Originally posted by Serial Midget
I thought her ass was totally HOT. Yeah, Baby! OH!

now that is a true, red-blooded american response!

 

[LoboDelFuego]

maybe she thinks the american flag is ugly. Stripes, stars, bars, whats going on? its a very poor fashion statement.

 

[Brian HCM#1]

Great topic, however this should be in the Political fourm......*hint*

 

[manimal]

Originally posted by Silver
Yeah, god forbid anyone have an opinion. America, love it or leave it!

love it or leave it is right. whether or not you agree with the current administration's doings has nothing to do with the flag. the freedoms associated with that flag is what allows her the opportunity to play sports in this country. say all of the anti government statements you like but realize that your right to say those things is because of that flag. respect it or leave it! or i'll gladly give you the boot myself.

 

[Brian HCM#1]

Interesting response from Dan Patrick.


Turning her back on the flag
By Dan Patrick


On Tuesday night, about 30 miles outside of New York City, a women's Division III basketball game between Manhattanville and Kings Point gained national attention because of a season-long protest by Manhattanville's Toni Smith. During the pregame national anthem, Smith turns her back on the American flag to protest the impending war with Iraq.



The beauty of living in the United States is that Smith has that right -- the First Amendment says so. As a country, we should absolutely hear from protestors and weigh both sides of right and wrong. Millions of Americans have lost their lives fighting to protect that right and freedom.


Throughout history, the union of sports and politics has been at times odd, but impactful. In 1968, we witnessed the silent protest of John Carlos and Tommie Smith during the Olympic games in Mexico City. We saw Muhammad Ali dodge the draft and Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf sit during the pregame national anthem in Denver. And whether you or I agree with them, they had that right.


In this case, however, boundaries have been crossed. It's one thing to voice an opinion, but it's completely different to turn your back -- literally, not figuratively. In turning her back on the American flag, Smith is doing more than making her point -- she's rejecting everything the flag and this country represent.


Smith is a young woman who, if and when we go to war with Iraq, will continue to live in the United States, perhaps raise a family here and continue to enjoy the freedoms of our democratic system. She should consider that the decisions she makes now will stick with her throughout her lifetime -- people will remember. And I hope she's ready for the repercussions.


Ultimately, I thank God that a young girl like Toni Smith has the right to protest. But I also can't ignore the ignorance and naiveté of her stance.

 

[laura]

Originally posted by Brian HCM#1
Interesting response from Dan Patrick.


But I also can't ignore the ignorance and naiveté of her stance.

i have to agree totally with this statement.

 

[manimal]

Originally posted by laura
i have to agree totally with this statement.

wow, mark this day. laura and i agree on something!!

 

[johnbryanpeters]

The freedom's important, as is the responsibility that goes with it.

The flag's a totem, often misused for political maneuverings, good or bad.

The young lady may or may not be misguided, but she's courageous.

J

 

[Brian HCM#1]

Bottom line is shes a tree hugging hippie:angry:

 

[laura]

Originally posted by manimal
wow, mark this day. laura and i agree on something!!

i cant believe it, in the past week i have agreed with you and damn true. there is always hope that you willl see eye to eye with just about everyone on at least one issue.

 

[Silver]

Turning your back on the flag is a powerful gesture. There are still a lot of people who are angry at Tommie Smith and John Carlos for their raised fists at the Mexico City Olympics. Making a statement that involves the flag in some way seems to be an action that raises powerful emotions.

I have trouble understanding why. There are no inherent freedoms that the flag grants, those are in the bill of rights and the constitution. And recent governments have had no moral issues with ignoring those when it suited them. The flag symbolizes the original 13 colonies and the 50 states. To me, it also symbolizes the diversity of people and opinions that live in those 50 states.

I guess it comes down to this: If you believe in freedom of speech, you will defend what this woman is doing. If you believe in freedom of YOUR speech, you won't.

 

[onelostsoul21]

i just dont think it has anything to do with "rights". it is disrespect. this country is good enough for her to live in, play sports and make a living but no good enough to give thanks? if you held a door for someone and they either just stood there with a disgusted look on thier face or did nothing to show any thanks....you could honestly tell me you wouldnt think...,"jeez...what a dick!"
this country has given this girl a great oppoutunity and for her to turn her back and not show any appreciation, in my eyes, really says something about the kind of person she is. i really dont care who agrees with me or not....ive experienced hatered and racism in purest form and i am no way racist against this girl...i just think she needs a SEVERE kick in the ass!!!
why do we let people so easily walk all over us and then after we have been trampled wonder, "how did this happen?"

 

[Brian HCM#1]

Originally posted by laura
i cant believe it, in the past week i have agreed with you and damn true.

You were probably drunk

 

[laura]

Originally posted by Brian HCM#1
You were probably drunk

shhhhhhhhhh! hehehehehe.

 

[Tenchiro]

I may disagree with her statement, but I support her right to make it.

 

[Brian HCM#1]

Originally posted by laura
shhhhhhhhhh! hehehehehe.

Cause its impossible to agree with DT sober

 

[ummbikes]

Originally posted by Silver



I guess it comes down to this: If you believe in freedom of speech, you will defend what this woman is doing. If you believe in freedom of YOUR speech, you won't.

I think your logic doesn't work here.

I think what she did, while legal, is stupid.

Freedom of speech allows for me to disagree.

 

[ohio]

Originally posted by onelostsoul21
why do we let people so easily walk all over us and then after we have been trampled wonder, "how did this happen?"

Toni Smith trampled you?!?

HA-ha, you got beat up by a girl.

 

[JRogers]

Uhhh, I second the "severe kick in the ass" motion on this girl. It's just plain disrespect to me. Sure, go ahead and make it, it's her right but don't expect anyone to like it or agree or condone it completely. The flag is an American ideal that does not change in my mind- Iraq or not.

 

[Silver]

Originally posted by ummbikes
I think your logic doesn't work here.

I think what she did, while legal, is stupid.

Freedom of speech allows for me to disagree.

Whoops, thanks for catching that. It should have read, "You will defend this woman's right to do what she is doing."

That's what I get for posting after sampling barleywines

Nice to see Ridemonkey back up!

 

[LordOpie]

i think ummbikes got your meaning, but was still suggesting that your logic is flawed.

 

[Damn True]

The flag is a symbol of our freedom and by saluting it we salute those who gave their lives to protect that freedom.
IMO she is turning her back on that freedom, and on those who earned it for her.

I have absolutely no problem with her feelings either for or against our foreign policy. But I take exception to her form of protest. She could just as easilly have penned NO WAR on her arm with a sharpie pen. But that would not have gotten her face on every network and local newscast and onto the front page of every newspaper in America.

 

[valve bouncer]

Am I missing something here? Is this girl from Iraq? If her name is Toni Smith I'm guessing she's not Iraqi....if so where is she from?

 

[patconnole]

Here's a somewhat related commentary, by Bill Moyers.


I wore my flag tonight. First time. Until now I haven't thought it necessary to display a little metallic icon of patriotism for everyone to see. It was enough to vote, pay my taxes, perform my civic duties, speak my mind, and do my best to raise our kids to be good Americans.

Sometimes I would offer a small prayer of gratitude that I had been born in a country whose institutions sustained me, whose armed forces protected me, and whose ideals inspired me; I offered my heart's affections in return. It no more occurred to me to flaunt the flag on my chest than it did to pin my mother's picture on my lapel to prove her son's love. Mother knew where I stood; so does my country. I even tuck a valentine in my tax returns on April 15.
So what's this doing here? Well, I put it on to take it back. The flag's been hijacked and turned into a logo — the trademark of a monopoly on patriotism. On those Sunday morning talk shows, official chests appear adorned with the flag as if it is the good housekeeping seal of approval. During the State of the Union, did you notice Bush and Cheney wearing the flag? How come? No administration's patriotism is ever in doubt, only its policies. And the flag bestows no immunity from error. When I see flags sprouting on official lapels, I think of the time in China when I saw Mao's little red book on every official's desk, omnipresent and unread.

But more galling than anything are all those moralistic ideologues in Washington sporting the flag in their lapels while writing books and running Web sites and publishing magazines attacking dissenters as un-American. They are people whose ardor for war grows disproportionately to their distance from the fighting. They're in the same league as those swarms of corporate lobbyists wearing flags and prowling Capitol Hill for tax breaks even as they call for more spending on war.

So I put this on as a modest riposte to men with flags in their lapels who shoot missiles from the safety of Washington think tanks, or argue that sacrifice is good as long as they don't have to make it, or approve of bribing governments to join the coalition of the willing (after they first stash the cash.) I put it on to remind myself that not every patriot thinks we should do to the people of Baghdad what Bin Laden did to us. The flag belongs to the country, not to the government. And it reminds me that it's not un-American to think that war — except in self-defense — is a failure of moral imagination, political nerve, and diplomacy.
Come to think of it, standing up TO your government can mean standing up FOR your country.

 

[DRB]

The fact of the matter is that the flag is just a piece of cloth. The flag does not provide you with super powers nor would it protect you from aliens, illegal or otherwise. Nor does it bestow super citizenship upon you when you display it. When US soldiers have gone to war they have never gone to protect the flag. The flag represents a 'ole bucket full of ideals but those ideals don't go away if the flag goes away. Or are those ideals rooted so shallowly that turning your back on the flag threatens them? Or god forbid even burning the flag? I'd hope not.

Her protest might be naive, as Dan Patrick indicated, but its her choice. There is a reason that those rights listed in the 1st amendment are first. In the end her right to protest in the manner she sees fit (as long as it isn't affecting others rights) is more important that a piece of cloth. If it changes that she can't make such a protest, then the flag is in real trouble.

 

[llkoolkeg]

...display, people can insult their country and its service members with relative impunity. This person's constitutionally-protected grandstanding is really quite the sad bid for attention. Then again, perhaps her motives were not just self-promoting, but were aimed at increasing media coverage and attendance for sporting events that would otherwise continue to go unnoticed. I wonder if she realizes that the very same protest in Iraq would earn her repeated savaging by one or more of Saddam's state-sponsered "professional" rapists.

Funny that no matter how much I disagree with another country's politics, I somehow always manage to make it to my feet, remove my ball cap and stand silently while their national anthem is being played. This is prima facie evidence of her poor upbringing, lack of respect and complete absence of class.

 

[LordOpie]

Originally posted by DRB
The fact of the matter is that the flag is just a piece of cloth.

That's your opinion. The reason i stress YOUR opinion is because if the flag meant nothing to the rest of society as well as this woman, then she would not have turned her back on it. The flag has meaning and value and that's why people are upset.

 

[Booker]

Originally posted by llkoolkeg
I wonder if she realizes that the very same protest in Iraq would earn her repeated savaging by one or more of Saddam's state-sponsered "professional" rapists.

I agree 100%. It is fine that she has the right to do whatever she pleases, but i do not have to respect her for it. Nor do i have to agree with it. Lets just hope that america will turn their back on her when she needs support.:angry:

 

[LordOpie]

hehe...

I heard on the radio that the freshman class got a whole bunch kids to line the perimeter of the court holding small US Flags! It's now impossible for her to turn her back

 

[patconnole]

Originally posted by LordOpie
hehe...

I heard on the radio that the freshman class got a whole bunch kids to line the perimeter of the court holding small US Flags! It's now impossible for her to turn her back

Hooray! We beat the dissenter!

 

[llkoolkeg]

Originally posted by LordOpie
hehe...

I heard on the radio that the freshman class got a whole bunch kids to line the perimeter of the court holding small US Flags! It's now impossible for her to turn her back

Perhaps now she'll have to sit down, close her eyes and cover her ears while repeating loudly "I can't hear you, I can't hear you, I can't hear you, I can't hear you..."

Wouldn't this make a great avatar??? Hmmmmm...

 

[DRB]

Originally posted by LordOpie
That's your opinion. The reason i stress YOUR opinion is because if the flag meant nothing to the rest of society as well as this woman, then she would not have turned her back on it. The flag has meaning and value and that's why people are upset.

Okay what's more important.

A flag

or

The values, ideals and rights that it represents.

Which would you take if you had to make a choice?

 

[LordOpie]

Originally posted by DRB
Okay what's more important.

A flag

or

The values, ideals and rights that it represents.

Which would you take if you had to make a choice?

I don't think you get my point. While I agree with you that a flag is nothing but cloth, the flag's value comes from the values, ideals and rights that it represents... you can't seperate the two.

Your argument is tantamount to money being nothing but paper. Umm, hey, if you think that, send me all your paper money

 

[DRB]

Originally posted by LordOpie
I don't think you get my point. While I agree with you that a flag is nothing but cloth, the flag's value comes from the values, ideals and rights that it represents... you can't seperate the two.

Your argument is tantamount to money being nothing but paper. Umm, hey, if you think that, send me all your paper money

Money does have value. I can trade it for goods and services. Physical possession of money gives you wealth. If someone takes that money away from you you lose wealth. If I burn that money the value disappears.

I can't, nor do I have to, trade a flag for any of my rights as a US citizen. Nor does the possession of a flag represent anything other than the fact that I traded money for it or it was given to me as a gift. If I burn my flag in the backyard nothing is lost except a piece of cloth.

My point, which you missed, is that disrespecting a flag in any form, does nothing to diminish the values and ideals it represents.