[HardcoreCrash]

For the spoke threads... what should I use on them? I've heard grease, linseed oil, spoke-prep, loctite, and nothing. I've built several wheels using nothing on them, and they've been fine, but I've got a few more to build comming up and was wondering what is ideal? Spoke prep is expensive, and I've heard it's the same as loctite. and with grease I'd be worried about the spokes loosening up.
Thanks

 

[riderx]

Well, I've got a book called "The Art of Wheel Building" by Gerd Schraner. I consider it the bible of how to build a wheel. He suggests linseed oil, it lubes when you put together, binds when the wheel is dry. So, if you can get it, I say use it. I haven't seen it around (haven't looked real hard either), so I just use regular oil and everything works fine. I say lube it in some way, oil being the easiest (I just dip the spoke threads in it), it makes life easier down the road.

 

[KonaDude]

...such as Tri-Flow or something on both the nipple threads and the nipple seat (where it sits on the rim eyelet). This eliminates any friction until you get to high tension levels. Eliminating thread friction is the only way to get high tension without risking damage to spoke nipples. Wheels will feel like they're tensioned highly, then if you add some lubricant to the equation, you'll see that they were actually undertensioned.
Use lube, a properly built wheel will not come loose, not even if it's abused.

 

[RideMonkey]

I have worked at shops that kept the nipples in a jar with a bit of tri-flow so that they were all lubed up and ready to go. Use some sort of lube, always better than dry.

 

[BikeGeek]

If you do go with linseed oil, wear gloves when working. I've used it in furniture making and it can be quite nasty to skin.

 

[oldfart]

Loktite or spoke prep. A well built wheel needs this to keep the spokes from coming loose. When you load the wheel up enough, the tension on the spokes can decrease enough due the rim deflecting that there is zero tension. Under zero tension for a fraction of a second, the nipple can move. They never tighten themselves. With double wall rims there is nothing to hold them in place. Lace your wheel, then put a drop of blue loktite on the end of each nipple and build immediately. You can also tri flow the outside of the nipple to help lubricate that junction. While wet the locktite will lub the threads. No its not so locked that you cannot true the wheel down the road. If you have oily threads the locktite will not hold very well if at all. Parts need to be clean for full effect. DT spokes come pretty oily from the box. Try wiping them down with a clean rag and you'll see the oil on the rag. Wheelsmiths are much cleaner but I prefer DT's.

 

[HardcoreCrash]

I'm gonna go with Finishline Teflon grease for the inital build, and if they loosen up at all I'll re-build 'em with loctite. thanks for all the info guys.

 

[KonaDude]

I've never once even thought of using Spoke Prep, Loc-Tite, or any other stuff like that. A properly tensioned wheel is not going to detension if it's properly maintained. Not only does it have to be built well, that's only half of it. The wheel should also see at least one or two tension and true jobs after being ridden for a period of time.

Spokes settle in at the hub, at the crosses, and at the rim. Those things all contribute to detensioning of a wheel. Anytime I build a custom wheel for somebody, I ask them to come back after a few hard rides and have it tensioned and trued for free. Even though I use several methods to aid settling of the spokes, I still like to follow it up. It makes a BIG difference in the durability of a wheel. No joke.

I'm no light guy, at around 230 pounds, and the wheels I've built for myself have been impeccable. After building, and retensioning and truing my Arrow rear wheel twice after breakin, I've NEVER had to touch it. No flat spots, high tension, no wobbling. Just straight.

All that is done with Tri-Flow. I see no point in using anything else, as Loc-Tite seems likely to accentuate the problem of undertensioned wheels. A good wheelbuilder can sense torque by hand while turning the spoke nipples. Any extra friction deters that reading.

Of course, it comes down to personal preference. For me it makes sense to use a lubricant.

 

[oldfart]

A properly tensioned wheel is not going to detension if it's properly maintained.[ Bull. Riding hard will cause your wheel rim to deflect often within its elastic limit. The spokes will loose tension then sometimes enough to have zero tension. What keeps the spoke nipple in place then.] Not only does it have to be built well, that's only half of it. The wheel should also see at least one or two tension and true jobs after being ridden for a period of time. [Absolutely, and as you say if you prestress at the end of the build, the post first week true will be minor.]

Spokes settle in at the hub, at the crosses, and at the rim. Those things all contribute to detensioning of a wheel. Anytime I build a custom wheel for somebody, I ask them to come back after a few hard rides and have it tensioned and trued for free. Even though I use several methods to aid settling of the spokes, I still like to follow it up. It makes a BIG difference in the durability of a wheel. No joke.

I'm no light guy, at around 230 pounds, and the wheels I've built for myself have been impeccable. [Mine too but I'm 140#s. But I have big friends with tandems. ] After building, and retensioning and truing my Arrow rear wheel twice after breakin, I've NEVER had to touch it. No flat spots, high tension, no wobbling. Just straight.

All that is done with Tri-Flow. I see no point in using anything else, as Loc-Tite seems likely to accentuate the problem of undertensioned wheels. How so. A good wheelbuilder can sense torque by hand while turning the spoke nipples. Any extra friction deters that reading. [Build when the locktite or spoke prep is not set yet and it lubricates. ]

Of course, it comes down to personal preference. For me it makes sense to use a lubricant. [/B]

 

[KonaDude]

... I can see your side of this story too.

What I'm talking about are my experiences. Even though I elaborate and blab a fair bit, I could summarize by saying that I've build at least 50 wheels, several my own using my methods and never once had a problem with detensioning. So, why do anything differently? My only goals are to make even more durable wheels, and faster.

As for lubricating during building, sure, I can see that. How about in the long term though? Imagine somebody who doesn't get their wheel trued more than once a year? Spoke nipples aren't hard to round out, and after a year loc-tite can be nasty stuff to break free. Whereas a lubricant will stay put enough that a year down the road, the spoke nipples should turn with relative ease. In my eyes, it's simply making the job easier for whomever works on that wheel a year from now.

As far as the after-build checkups, sure they will be slight, minor adjustments. I have found that however slight they may be, they do make a significant difference in the life of a wheel. I build my wheels so they last long anyway, but they'll simply last longer with a brief checkup. I'm well known in my area for building wheels that stand up to our good old BC riding.

As I said, each to his/her own. No need to get argumentative or anything. We're both building good wheels that last. The processes with which we do this are simply unimportant.

 

[oldfart]

Any lube you use on the threads will be gone after a number of wet rides. If you'd ever tried to true some wheels off a cheapo bike after it was used a few years, you'd see some pretty stuck nipples. All coroded in place. Mind you, there's probably not too much good lube in there. Tri flow is pretty light too. It goes away pretty fast. Thing is with locktite is it kinda seals the threads and keeps the nipple from corroding to the spoke. So it will prevent lockup. I'm just going by my wheelbuilding teacher who used to build for National Team road riders. A lot of books will tell you to use locktite or spoke prep or linseed oil or varnish to hold those nippels from coming loose. Check out www.dtswiss.com for some good tips. sheldonbrown is another site with good tips. Hey there's lots of ways to skin a cat. If it works for you, don't mess with it.

 

[KonaDude]

I see what you're saying. However I have a set of wheels on a buddy's bike that I built 2 years ago. The spoke nipples still aren't siezed or showing any signs of it. Nor are the wheels showing any signs of detensioning. He really beats up on his bike too.

This is like the old "Should I grease my BB spindle" debate. What works for me may not work for you. And vice versa. I bet you'll find other team mechs who will use a light lube as well.

If somebody shows me how to do something, I'll take any advice that I need, then improve upon it if need be. When I was taught how to build wheels, I used Tri-Flow. Used it ever since, on my own wheels and on other's wheels. No problems to date. So it works.

I had a wheel in the shop yesterday on which someone had used loc-tite. It crystallized and siezed the nipples on the spokes.

But, whatever. As I said, it doesn't matter HOW we build the wheel, what matters is that they are a quality product. How we go about making the product good is an individual thing.

 

[Ranger]

Servus!

Kona, any good tips on wheels for the larger set? I do XC, not DH so I won't be having any wide rims build up. I do ride discs, though - might present a problem.

Thanks in advance!

 

[riderx]

Originally posted by Ranger
Servus!

Kona, any good tips on wheels for the larger set? I do XC, not DH so I won't be having any wide rims build up. I do ride discs, though - might present a problem.

Thanks in advance!

I'm not Kona, but I would recommend the Sun Rhyno Lites for your application. Tough, reasonable cost and not to heavy.

 

[KonaDude]

Originally posted by Ranger
Servus!

Kona, any good tips on wheels for the larger set? I do XC, not DH so I won't be having any wide rims build up. I do ride discs, though - might present a problem.

Thanks in advance!

If you do XC you'll want to keep things light, I assume. I'd suggest something like a Mavic 519 rim. It's kinda midweight. Lighter than their 521 or a Sun Rhyno Lite, but still pretty tough. As long as you get a good, respected wheel builder to do it, and you follow up on the after-build checks, your wheel should hold up well. I also suggest straight 14guage spokes. At the lightest, if you want butted, go 14-15-14.

Hope this helps!

 

[trialsmasta]

Pipe thread anti sieze from the hardware store, goes on buttery smooth but won't back off. I've also used greese both seem to work pretty good

 

[ilmecca]

Anyone heard about ABS nipples ? They are made by Alpina (italian spokes and nipples brand) , it's a normal alu or brass nipple with a little plastic insert inside that prevents the nipple from moving but allows for good maintenance. I used it on my personal wheels and trued once a year (after 3 years of use the rim is 90% worn out) with no problems. Try it!

 

[Rik]

Originally posted by BikeGeek
If you do go with linseed oil, wear gloves when working. I've used it in furniture making and it can be quite nasty to skin.

i had a jar of linseed oil to massage into my skin, apparently it helps ligament growth
and that jar broke, my mother put the oil in a bottle without me knowing, and i accidently thought it was cooking oil and cooked and ate a meal that was prepared using linseed oil !!

a little plastic insert inside

that'd be similar to the "nylock" nuts you get with that insert to prevent loosening
i'd be a bit dubious as to how well they work in a wheel, but i guess you have no complaints so they cant be that bad

 

[BikeGeek]

Originally posted by Rik




i had a jar of linseed oil to massage into my skin, apparently it helps ligament growth
and that jar broke, my mother put the oil in a bottle without me knowing, and i accidently thought it was cooking oil and cooked and ate a meal that was prepared using linseed oil !!

Seriously?! Maybe I'm allergic to it because it burnt the hell out of my hands.

 

[edoz]

Spoke prep is made by Loctite but it is NOT the same as off-the-shelf Loctite. I have used both with success, but that was before I learned how to build wheels properly. Like many others have said, if you build it right, you can use a lot of stuff.

 

[oldfart]

quote from another site. problems with spoke setting compounds seizing a spoke nipple are almost always the result of failing to oil the threads before bulding the wheel. dt's spoke freeze has big yellow warning labels in the box, that say if you don't oil the threads first, and apply the stuff after the build is complete, the nipple will be locked in place permanently. i've seen that warning ignored before, resulting in un-truable wheels.

tri-bond's spoke-set is the same deal, except they don't warn you as much. it also must be applied after the build is complete, and the threads must have been oiled before the build.

wheelsmith's spoke prep is less dangerous, but less effective. it's applied before, and there's no risk of permenent setting.

rock'n'roll nipple cream is pretty good as a one-step lube-n-lock compound, but it's not nearly as strong as the above listed ones.

phil wood tenacious oil is my favorite choise for spoke threads, whether or not a setting compound is to be used afterwards. it's sticky enough to be somewhat effective at preventing loosening most of the time.

beeswax, lard, parrafin, linseed oil, even ear wax if you're in a pinch, are also all good things to use.

blue loc-tite is not really very good at all, since it's not designed to re-set multiple times after being broken loose, like all the above compounds are. that's why it's cheaper, and that's why it doesn't say "great for spokes" on the bottle. the only appropriate application of blue loc-tite in a wheel, that i've seen, is when replacing spokes on a Velomax wheel, where the hub-end needs to be firmly fixed into the hub flange.

some inelastic deformation takes place initially after a wheel is "broken in", mainly while the surfaces of the various parts "mate" to each other as best they can, but after that, the spokes and nipples undergo millions of stress cycles as the wheels rotate under load, and the nipples do work loose if there's nothing holding them in place. spokes, like all screws, are still just a curved inclined plane, and they are subject to small torsional forces even from a purely axial tension load. through millions of load cycles, it adds up to a gradual loosening of the nipple. just like if you gently tap a screw into wood with a hammer, it'll turn some as it goes in.

 

[bomberz1qr20]

An important element of wheel building and trueing that helps in this whole proccess:

Countering spoke wind-up and stress relieving.

I have great success in keeping the spoke nipples on my wheels from loosening by backing the spoke wrench off about a 16th or less of a turn EVERY time I add tension. This relieves spoke wind up and keeps the spokes from trying to un-wind and loosen.

Stress relieving the wheel during the initial tensioning several times and on follow up trueing is essential.

I have only used common lubes on spoke threads. Grab all the spokes and stand em up threads down in about a 1/4" of lube while building. Finish Line Cross Country wet lube is my current favorite. 3in1 oil works fine too.

After building and break in the retentioning is totally the key thing in keeping lasting trueness.

Then:

KEEP AN EYE ON THE WHEEL!

(not while you ride, look at the trail ahead)

If you have the patience and skill to build a wheel in the first place, you should have no prob keeping the thing trued and properley tensioned! Why add glue when a little attention will make for a long lasting wheel?

 

[jodysbike]

Why add glue when a little attention will make for a long lasting wheel? [/B][/QUOTE]

I wish I had read all these coments when they first came up. I agree and disagree with every one of you. Each wheel has to be built for each rider independantly and differantly for it to last. All of the afor mentioned ideals are great and horrible. You must truely know 1.Wheels and 2. The rider your building for. If you just build a wheel the same way everytime and put it out in the would without fully knowing how, when, where, who, and what conditions it will be used, your lucky if it truely last.

For the record: 208,695 wheels.

 

[kafin8ed]

i've built a couple hundred or so wheels working in a few shops and have noticed that alloy nipples are much more likely to corrode than the brass nipples & also seem to attract dirt into the threads more than brass nips. that said, it always seemed more important to use real spokeprep on alloy nips because it doesn't wash away like lube does. brass nips are the easiest to get away with NOT using any prep or using linseed oil or grease for prep because they will not corrode to a STAINLESS STEEL spoke. additionally, this same logic could be apllied to where/how the wheel is going to be used (dry, wet, track, competition, ultra durability/reliability, etc...) to determine what would work best. IMO spokeprep is best no brainer solution, it'll do the best job in all situations, but under the right conditions, other things will work just as well, or maybe better...

-kafin8ed

 

[Just Lookin'...]

Originally posted by jodysbike

I wish I had read all these coments when they first came up. I agree and disagree with every one of you. Each wheel has to be built for each rider independantly and differantly for it to last. All of the afor mentioned ideals are great and horrible. You must truely know 1.Wheels and 2. The rider your building for. If you just build a wheel the same way everytime and put it out in the would without fully knowing how, when, where, who, and what conditions it will be used, your lucky if it truely last.

For the record: 208,695 wheels.

208,695

You are God.

Because if you work ten hours a day, five days a week, never get sick, never answer the phone and take an average of 20 minutes a wheel build, never take holidays or vacations, you've been building wheels for 27 years.

 

[jodysbike]

Originally posted by Just Lookin'...


208,695

You are God.

Not at all. No one knows everything.

I worked at a place that built wheels for both bike shops and OEM's like Specialized, Trek, Yetti, Kona,etc...
hand build and machine lace.
I don't want to hear anyone say machine built wheel suck! All that machine does is screw on a nipple faster than your hand can! A good or bad machine built wheel depends on the person lacing and the care in the trueing.
Anyway on a lacing machine I could do between 200 and 350 wheels in and 8 hour shift. I averagly worked 12 hours a day for four years.
IOut of that total well over 800 were hand laced wheels that went to shops or pro riders.

 

[bomberz1qr20]

Originally posted by Just Lookin'...


208,695

You are God.

Because if you work ten hours a day, five days a week, never get sick, never answer the phone and take an average of 20 minutes a wheel build, never take holidays or vacations, you've been building wheels for 27 years.

1) Good math!
2) You need to get out more!

 

[Endo]

And i also build wheels (i used to do it for a ha,ha living)
I really like mavic stuf and for my xc dollar 517's 3 cross 15/14 on xcr hubs..... they keep going and going and going....
And when I say I'm big 6'3" 240 If It can be broken I can break it.

Oh, btw I use beeswax on the threads and flats of the nipples.

 

[wrenchguru]

It seems everyone here has a different perspective on wheel building. I've built up around 100 wheels and I've used DT spoke prep on all of them. This stuff will lubricate the threads when lacing, so tensioning is easier, and will help keep the nips tight down the road. I cann't believe using oil on the threads is a good idea, since the spokes are constantly detensioning and tensioning on every ride. It would seem the spokes would loosen without constant attension. I have put oil on the nipple/rim junction when radial lacing since the tension is higher and it helps with the friction there. Loctite wouldn't be a good idea, unless you never plan on truing or tensioning your wheels. If you want to use a thread locker, use Spoke Freeze. Much like Loctite, comes in the same style bottle, but it will allow for 10 small adjustments before it breaks down. Another reason DT spoke prep is nice, is because it comes in two colors, so when building rear wheels you can easily tell the difference in spoke length. More important than what is used on the threads is what hands are turning the nips. Pay for an experienced and quailfied wheel builder, it worth it.

 

[KonaDude]

A properly tensioned wheel is not going to be a problem if the spoke nipples are lubricated during building. A wheel built using spoke nipple lubrication should DEFINITELY be tensioned and trued once or twice after a couple weeks of riding, since if the spokes settle it will be undertensioned and therefore will come even more loose.

I've never worked on a loc-tited wheel that I liked. They are a pain in the arse for maintenance, and a GOOD wheelbuilder should build his wheels to last years, and therefore be maintained years down the road.

By your theories, my rear wheel should be toast by now. I just used Tri-Flo on the nipple threads and seats, tensioned and trued the wheel once or twice after a few weeks riding, and I've never had to touch it. It's not like I'm a wuss either. I'm 250 lbs of big freerider. If I was wrong, my wheel would be gone long ago. Thankfully, it's not. AND, I can maintain it because my spoke nipples won't seize.

 

[bomberz1qr20]

One common thing seems to stand out here (at least to me):

Wheel building requires some kind of lubrication.

Spoke prep...IS LUBE.
Oil......IS LUBE.

Spoke prep is lube that gums up after the build. The argument that a wheel that has been lubed with oil will detension because of the oil is retarded!

Oil allows the threads of ANY fastener to engage with less friction. This allows spokes to be tightened to higher tension with LESS WIND-UP...
Proper tension and lack of wind up keeps the spokes from un-winding and de-tensioning..simple!

Use oil.
Use spoke prep..if you like to waste your money on gummy-lube.
Use butter if it makes you happy!

 

[wrenchguru]

Originally posted by Nobody


So, the fact that I advocate, under most circumstances, lubricating the threads, means that I'm sub-standard in my wheelbuilding practices?

Well, building since 1984 must be all wasted effort. Oh well.

Who said your wheelbuilding skills were sub standard? Use whatever you find effective, and I'll do the same. I haven't had any complaints with my wheels, and I am sure you haven't in your many years either. Why is it if I have a different opinion than yours, you feel I'm putting you down or something?

 

[schaefdog]

Originally posted by bomberz1qr20
One common thing seems to stand out here (at least to me):

Wheel building requires some kind of lubrication.

Spoke prep...IS LUBE.
Oil......IS LUBE.

Spoke prep is lube that gums up after the build. The argument that a wheel that has been lubed with oil will detension because of the oil is retarded!

Oil allows the threads of ANY fastener to engage with less friction. This allows spokes to be tightened to higher tension with LESS WIND-UP...
Proper tension and lack of wind up keeps the spokes from un-winding and de-tensioning..simple!

Use oil.
Use spoke prep..if you like to waste your money on gummy-lube.
Use butter if it makes you happy!

This is what i have learned too. Using lube such as tri-flow off the start will allow you to tighten the spokes to higher tension...when a spoke is tesioned to a high tension the threads create a constant incline plane, as someone stated before. this is what holds the threads (spoke nip junction) together. the tighter you can get the spokes off the start (without windup) the better your build will be...so yeah, use whatever you want..ill stick with tri-flow.