[Sandwich]

dude, I can't even make sense of what you're talking about. I'd love to continue arguing with you, but you're stupid.

we're on an internet forum, talking about bikes. I'm offering opinions and facts to create discussions on different things mostly to entertain myself until riding season comes again, and hopefully help out a few other riders.

I'm going to stop now, mostly because I don't want this thread to get deleted or locked as I'd like to make sure nobody else in the world gets ripped off by your friend in NZ.

 

[General Lee]

Pffft new someone would have to chime in on that(cheap shot).

Yeah I've owned an Avy and thought it was great.
The Lahar makes sense. The Lahar rides really well.
Don't be scared to step out side from the herd, there's good things to be found in thinking and experiencing for yourself.

thanks for the tip. i'm pretty new to dh so every little bit of advice helps. i mean it would be one thing if i'd been watching mtb technology change since 1993 or had 14 years of dh racing experience to draw on but . . . oh nevermind, i'm a sheep.


and for what it's worth, there are good things in not throwing thousands of dollars away.

back on topic: if you have money to burn, go to vegas. don't buy a lahar.

 

[no skid marks]

dude, I can't even make sense of what you're talking about. I'd love to continue arguing with you, but you're stupid.LOL. What don't you understand in what I've said?

we're on an internet forum, talking about bikes. I'm offering opinions and factsPoint out these facts. to create discussions on different things mostly to entertain myself until riding season comes again, and hopefully help out a few other riders.You made all your points in the beginning, no need to keep preaching the same stuff, especially when it is wrong. You are helping nobody and you've addressed that yourself.

I'm going to stop now, mostly because I don't want this thread to get deleted or locked as I'd like to make sure nobody else in the world gets ripped off by your friend in NZ.

Why would you call him my friend? there's been no comment made by me that he is a friend of mine. I came on here today, to correct incorrect statements about Lahar frames, and to try to shut you up because you annoy the sh!t out of me carrying on with your lies and slander when it has nothing to do with you, and your only making it worse for those waiting. Your not on a quest to gain knowledge, your out to make yourself feel better by putting others down, hence my mirror/masterbtion comment that I sent in a PM that you got me banned for.

inboard brakes are a great idea but would be tough to implement. you'd have to compensate for slack in the chain, worry about chains snapping (no brakes) and strengthen all of the components to get it fixed.

As far as people clamoring for GB bikes, first off, they all have sucked so farLahar won a JNR World Cup, and second, nobody is going to worry about something that doesn't exist yet.There are Lahars in existence. The design has been proven, this is the debate I'm engaging in, there's no need to state you can't get one, because I'm debating your point here that it doesn't exist, like the jet. Do you really think anybody said "i wish I had jet turbine engine" when they hadn't been designed yet? The only people who said that were the ones who created it, implemented it, and bettered the industry. If the industry had funded Lahar, the DH world would be a better place, and be far more advanced than it is now. My argument is that's the same case with gearbox bikes. They can be done right, they just aren't.The Lahar and GT are both done right, one has financial issues, the other just had geo issues. If everyone is getting excited about the low single pivot Trek, then a G-Box version could also be made(obviously heavier), I'm not condoning either designs. Can you really say that having better mass centralization, faster shifting, and a zero maintenance drivetrain would be worse?Why have you critisized the Lahar and GT design then? They both work.

I agree that derailleurs are great, they work great, and they've been around for so long that people have it down to a science. Heck, half the existing GBs are derailleurs in a box. My argument is that getting that off the rear wheel, reducing its size, and tucking it away is a very good thing. Heck, if you've got less chain slapping around, you can run a shorter cage, and make it stronger without a weight penalty. Adding mechanical gears CAN be a good thing when the science is ready.The Rohloff takes way way less maintanence than a deraileur, lasts longer, is more reliable, not much less efficient if at all once you add a chain device to a derailer , same with weight, and you can change multiple gears even when not pedaling.

This is really an argument for another thread though....

Yes, and there's been plenty of them, both on the Lahar design and other gearbox debates.
But you don't get to piss people off there do you?
If you do come back to debate this, please do it with intelligent and factual answers, and not just name calling and avoiding the fact you made statements about the Lahar that are wrong and I debated them.

 

[no skid marks]

thanks for the tip. i'm pretty new to dh so every little bit of advice helps. i mean it would be one thing if i'd been watching mtb technology change since 1993 or had 14 years of dh racing experience to draw on but . . . oh nevermind, i'm a sheep.

So having air directed over the shock to help cool it has no benefit?
I think this design isn't that important, and it's not a debate I think either of us intended. Yes it is helpful, no it's not that big a deal.

 

[Old_Sckool]

Dang!!! I turned my back for a minute, and everyone goes for the jugular.

Well since I added the fodder for this, guess I'll reply.

My post wasn't meant as a bash of the bike (well, maybe the looks, but that don't mean $hit). I was more pointing out that the bike isn't the second coming and why.

I'm pretty much tried to limit my critique to issues of merit. So far no one has really refuted any point other then to say the issues I brought up, don't bother them.

As far as the gearbox. Sorry folks, I was riding one of 'em 5 years ago. If you think its the bee knees, thats fine and dandy. This system has been in use since about 2001. It hasn't changed really at all. And not cause it works great as is.

Consider this, virtually the entire Nicolai team removed the Rohloff from the Nucleon and ran it with a conventional derailleur. Now why is that???? Sorry, but it's just not practical for racing. If you like it, great. But most the people who think it is, haven't really ever ridden one or don't race.

I guess if you're just poking around on the mountain, having a good time, then no big deal. But when I'm on a race run, I'm pretty much riding at my limit and processing a helluva lot of input, coming at me very fast. The last think I want to think about is if I want to roll down 4 gears or 6 to get the gear I want. Or am I gonna end up in that goofing middle gear (I think between 7-8, where you gotta backpedal for an instant) Maybe I'm just not a good multitasker. But I don't think I'm alone.

Most people I know who have ridden a gearbox for any length of time, start out really liking it, but most end up going back to a conventional system. Sorry, but thats the reality. But that doesn't mean some won't continue to think its great.

Personally, I think the idea is a great one. They could really fix a lot of the drivetrain slack, by just using a fixed rear hub (I believe Nicolai now does this) that would remove a good chunk of it. But the Rohloff alone still has quite a bit. As stated earlier, this if more of an annoyance and if you could care less, then who am I to argue.

But this bike is made out to be the pinnacle of design and frankly a driveline with that much slop feels cheap.

Someone simply needs to make a dedicated system and stop trying to bootstrap a Rohloff into it. I guess they don't feel the market demand exists.

As far as all the innovation Skid Marks mentioned, you pretty much described most decent bikes made now days (except for the shock cooling tunnel, not sure of it's benefit, since most modern shocks don't have a problem with heat). The low unsprung weight is cool, but my Intense Socom had a lighter swingarm then my 5spot trail bike and I hated the suspension on that bike.

I'm sure the bike rides great. Albeit, not without its quirks.

I like the the centralized weight, the low cog, the silence. Pretty much describes my Race Link, although my Link doesn't have the new, spectacular, stupendous, super slack, super low Geo that everyone thinks is so great.

Anyway, my post was more of a reality check, an effort to point out some obvious misconceptions and omissions by those trying to paint a rosier picture then the reality.

 

[dhrookie]

thanks for the tip. i'm pretty new to dh so every little bit of advice helps. i mean it would be one thing if i'd been watching mtb technology change since 1993 or had 14 years of dh racing experience to draw on but . . . oh nevermind, i'm a sheep.

see i wasn't joking when i said i trust everything you said...........
you make sense.

 

[no skid marks]

My post wasn't meant as a bash of the bike (well, maybe the looks, but that don't mean $hit). I was more pointing out that the bike isn't the second coming and why.No bike is, every bike is a collection of compramises, pick the best that suits you.As far as the gearbox. Sorry folks, I was riding one of 'em 5 years ago. If you think its the bee knees, thats fine and dandy. This system has been in use since about 2001. It hasn't changed really at all. And not cause it works great as is. Did you run it in the frame? The centralized mass and low COG is more of a benefit than anything the Rohloff offers, but the Rohloff still has a lot of great benefits.

Consider this, virtually the entire Nicolai team removed the Rohloff from the Nucleon and ran it with a conventional derailleur. Now why is that???? Weight, the Nicolia is not a Lahar, for many reasons. For all out racing, there's some good argument for running a deraileur, but they're tainted by the risk of failure. For everyone but the top pros, I think the Lahar with the Roloff will still offer more benefits(however small, or trivial)Sorry, but it's just not practical for racing. If you like it, great. But most the people who think it is, haven't really ever ridden one or don't race.It is only shifting, again, I think the centralized weight and reliability are more beneficial than any discomfort provided by the shifting. The 14speed Rohloff isn't perfect, a much lighter one with less gears would be brilliant, but it is still a small burden(the weight).

I guess if you're just poking around on the mountain, having a good time, then no big deal. But when I'm on a race run, I'm pretty much riding at my limit and processing a helluva lot of input, coming at me very fast. The last think I want to think about is if I want to roll down 4 gears or 6 to get the gear I want. Or am I gonna end up in that goofing middle gear (I think between 7-8, where you gotta backpedal for an instantWTF?) Maybe I'm just not a good multitasker. But I don't think I'm alone. Did you ride it long enough for it to become second nature?

Most people I know who have ridden a gearbox for any length of time, start out really liking it, but most end up going back to a conventional system. Sorry, but thats the reality. But that doesn't mean some won't continue to think its great.My argument is for the Lahar as a package, not for any other gearbox bike(oh and the GT, but I've not ridden one, so I'll not comment).

Personally, I think the idea is a great one. They could really fix a lot of the drivetrain slack, by just using a fixed rear hub (I believe Nicolai now does this) that would remove a good chunk of it. But the Rohloff alone still has quite a bit. As stated earlier, this if more of an annoyance and if you could care less, then who am I to argue. You can get some BMX sprockets(what the Lahar uses)with lots of pick ups.

But this bike is made out to be the pinnacle of design and frankly a driveline with that much slop feels cheap.It's a DH bike, with other pedalling advantages that are more beneficial than some slight sluggishness from the pick ups.

Someone simply needs to make a dedicated system and stop trying to bootstrap a Rohloff into it. I guess they don't feel the market demand exists.
True unfortunatly. Rohloff are working on a 7 speed.
As far as all the innovation Skid Marks mentioned, you pretty much described most decent bikes made now days (except for the shock cooling tunnel, not sure of it's benefit, since most modern shocks don't have a problem with heat). The low unsprung weight is cool, but my Intense Socom had a lighter swingarm then my 5spot trail bike and I hated the suspension on that bike.But you hated it for an irrelivant reason the the argument your making.

I'm sure the bike rides great. Albeit, not without its quirks.

I like the the centralized weight, the low cog, the silence. Pretty much describes my Race Link, although my Link doesn't have the new, spectacular, stupendous, super slack, super low Geo that everyone thinks is so great.How fast, aggresive(pushing the bike or hanging back letting the bike do it all) and steep are you riding.

Anyway, my post was more of a reality check, an effort to point out some obvious misconceptions and omissions by those trying to paint a rosier picture then the reality.

I just came on to discuss what I saw being said that was wrong.
I'm riding a bike with a deraileur I prefer to my Lahar, but only because I like it's geo better, I missed the gearbox, and not having to worry about a mech.

 

[MrPlow]

Do you still own the Lahar NSM?

 

[Eastern States Cup]

I've broken a few derailuers in my life, but I never worried about it.

You guys just need to listen to the General, he's never wrong.

 

[Old_Sckool]

I just came on to discuss what I saw being said that was wrong.
I'm riding a bike with a deraileur I prefer to my Lahar, but only because I like it's geo better, I missed the gearbox, and not having to worry about a mech.

Skid Marks, not saying I'm right and you're wrong. Just giving my perceptions and experiences.

The Nicolai had the Rohloff centrally mounted, just like the Lahar. Yes COG is good, it just wasn't enough for me. If it's working out for you, I think thats great.

As far as how hard I'm "pushing it" I'm a Cat 1 front of the pack racer. But I'm old and mostly win cause most the guys I race against have to stop and pee before they're half way to the finish line. :biggrin:

Peace

 

[General Lee]

I've broken a few derailuers in my life, but I never worried about it.

You guys just need to listen to the General, he's never wrong.

Not true. I used Kendas for a few months in 2006.

 

[Sandwich]

I had no idea that the ignore feature would be so useful!

 

[EVRAC]

Sandwich, your just an idiot, shut up. Everything you say, you then state why it's wrong at the end. You even commented a while back, that it's not helping and you shouldn't comment, so why don't you take your own advice, drag your little wooden high pony on wheels to the top of the nearest hill and f*** off.
For all the stupid arguments made of late.

Wow. Way off base nsm. I just re-read the last few pages and most of Sandwich's comments seemed balanced, well-informed and intelligent. Yours, on the other end, were defensive, offensive and idiotic.

Lord forbid someone try to weigh the pros and cons and explain why we are not all riding gb bikes already and you reply with this crap?

Get a grip.

 

[Eastern States Cup]

Not true. I used Kendas for a few months in 2006.

lol Kendas do suck

Do Kendas come stock on Lahars ?

 

[Transcend]

lol Kendas do suck

Do Kendas come stock on Lahars ?

Naw, when you pay for kendas you actually receive them, for better or for worse.

 

[no skid marks]

Do you still own the Lahar NSM?

Yeah I've still got one.

Wow. Way off base nsm. I just re-read the last few pages and most of Sandwich's comments seemed balanced, well-informed and intelligent. Yours, on the other end, were defensive, offensive and idiotic.

Lord forbid someone try to weigh the pros and cons and explain why we are not all riding gb bikes already and you reply with this crap?

Get a grip.

Yeah I got a bit heated, just gets tiring hearing the same old ill informed ****. At least some of OldSkools Rohloff rant had merit.

Ok then ill call Aaron Franklin your friend....Your the only one on here defending a lier an a thief!I'm not defending him at all. An who was it your where drinking an "smoking"WTF? what **** are you trying to insinuate here? with outside a hotel in Rotorua the night before the dh worlds in 06?????? I was there as well trying to ask Aaron questions an pick his brains a lil....an all i got was a load of bs in return.All the while you rabbited on about your Brooklyn an how great 24" wheels were.Don't rewrite history to appear as you want. I was there for business to pick up a Lahar, and see the worlds. I would have stated 24"s are great for fun, for throwing around in a jump park, nothing else.
Im sick of you acting like a 3year old kid who stamps his feet an throws a paddy whenever someone has the nerve to post an alternate opinion let alone disagree with you

I was debating facts, and I don't see why Sandwich needs to write something(much the same)every time this thread comes up. It really annoys me as there's no way it's helping people get their bikes.
I've never justified Aarrons actions, only explained my experiences, and done my best to help. I've noticed you try to slam Lahar every opportunity you get also, didn't get your slice of the pie hey? Who's the one acting like a little kid that didn't get their way. You know as well as I do that the Lahar is a great bike, and that is all I've been debating. I may have done it poorly, but the facts are the facts.

 

[NoUseForAName]

Honestly - MODS how about locking this thread and sticking it.
If reading these 10 pages of drivel/attacks/counterattacks doesn't convince someone that buying a Lahar is a long shot, then at least they have been warned.
What more good is it doing by staying open - unless it's function is like the Asylum 'well at least it is keeping them off the streets'?

 

[Transcend]

What more good is it doing by staying open - unless it's function is like the Asylum 'well at least it is keeping them off the streets'?

Pretty much. If i close this there will be another 5 threads spawn up. Besides, i want to see this guy get his ass handed to him eventually.

 

[P.T.W]

:

Yeah I've still got one.

Yeah I got a bit heated, just gets tiring hearing the same old ill informed ****. At least some of OldSkools Rohloff rant had merit.

I was debating facts, and I don't see why Sandwich needs to write something(much the same)every time this thread comes upJust as you do. It really annoys me as there's no way it's helping people get their bikes.
I've never justified Aarrons actions, only explained my experiences, and done my best to help. I've noticed you try to slam Lahar every opportunity you get alsoI have never slammed the bike(i like them actually)just Aarons actions, didn't get your slice of the pie hey?What pie is this???? i like pie:biggrin: Who's the one acting like a little kid that didn't get their way. You know as well as I do that the Lahar is a great bikei agree...but only if you can get them, and that is all I've been debating. I may have done it poorly, but the facts are the facts.

ok an i retract the "smoking" statmentoster_oops:.....thinking back....maybe you an me where the only two people not indulging

 

[xy9ine]

I like the the centralized weight, the low cog, the silence. Pretty much describes my Race Link, although my Link doesn't have the new, spectacular, stupendous, super slack, super low Geo that everyone thinks is so great.

interestingly, i was on the fence between getting racelink & lahar. the weight & dated geometry swung me towards the kiwi freakshow (my weakness for all things carbon contributed as well). now if the new superco had been available, things might have been different.

to be fair, my bike purchases these days are typically based more on a passionate response (ie, design ideology & aesthetics that resonate with me) than purely performance factors. pretty much all high end dh bikes perform great these days, but the generic just doesn't interest me, so i'm willing to deal with funky aspects to have a cool piece of rolling sculpture. i'm a huge fan of the independant garage builder / mad scientist with unique ideas, it's just unfortunate that design talent do not always go hand in hand with business acumen, and the micro niche that custom dh framebuilding is doesn't generate enough $$ to keep some of the talent out there who are forced to work in more lucrative industries.

anyways, too much sh1t slinging going on here. holidays is almost upon us - group hug!

 

[konastab01]

Group hug sounds good.

But only when I get mine......

We might be waiting a while longer.......

 

[dump]

how about some pics of that "just delivered" lahar?

 

[konastab01]

how about some pics of that "just delivered" lahar?

Now that would be cool,even though I have one in my garage the now.

 

[Eastern States Cup]

 

[demo 9]

what bike is that?

 

[konastab01]

I'm pretty sure that isnt his bike....
That look like punters old one.

 

[MrPlow]

Lahars look like -

 

[dump]

what bike is that?

not the one that just got delivered...

 

[dropmachine]

Sorry, but that Lahar looks like it was beaten about the head with the ugly stick, smacked in the teeth with the garish bat, slapped on the sack by the repugnant paddle, and then maybe sodomized by the hideous pylon.

Maybe Hot Carled by Rosie O'Donnel.

If that bike was a girl, and it showed up on a blind date, not even a good personality could save it. You wouldn't even be nice about it either, you'd just chug half a 40 then punch her in the face.



ok I'm done.



Oh and it looks like this thing, which is also slightly unattractive.

 

[xy9ine]

obviously your sense of aesthetics has been somehow damaged. this is like, totally yummy:

interestingly enough, i also own the early version ('88 i think) of that trimble (which i also thought was the coolest thing ever). if nothing else, there's consistency in my tastes, i suppose.

 

[Udi]

obviously your sense of aesthetics has been somehow damaged.

Yeah but to be fair, your builds make anything look good... every one apart from yours has been reasonably ugly. Nice to have one exception.

PS - I want to know where that weird egyptian looking cartoon girl from your old avatar was from. Intrigued me for some reason and I never figured it out. Totally random I know.

 

[ronson]

Did Ronson ever get his?

Nope, I didn't..... Still waiting.

And Aaron still keeps on telling stories.

 

[StyledAirtime]

for all you 24" fans , Im pretty sure the first few Lahars had a 24" rear wheel and ran kendas.

Next Level.

 

[CBJ]

Yeah but to be fair, your builds make anything look good... every one apart from yours has been reasonably ugly. Nice to have one exception.

I was thinking the same - king of bike builds. I wish I had the resources to do the same to my bikes.

 

[4speed]

there she blows,picked up about 1 week ago.

 

[demo 9]

so lahar came through?

 

[bullcrew]

Looks good!

 

[4speed]

Yer sure did ,but not without the usual hassles,was out riding this morning,hope ronson gets his soon.Wasnt able to see any other bikes when i was there,but they could be in garage or another room.Good luck to everyone still waiting,it was a massive releaf to finally have it.

 

[General Lee]

so lahar came through?

honestly, is that even possible anymore at this point?

 

[bullcrew]

obviously your sense of aesthetics has been somehow damaged. this is like, totally yummy:

interestingly enough, i also own the early version ('88 i think) of that trimble (which i also thought was the coolest thing ever). if nothing else, there's consistency in my tastes, i suppose.

Thoughts on those big bettys!!!! I am riding schwalbe this year and looking for a good loose over hard pack for So cal racing and general riding! I have al mightys (blew one up on a hard landing, cased a 20'+ jump) and muddy marys now and Im going to run the muddy marys here till I get back to socal then I was thinking bad betty rear and muddy mary front!!
What are your thoughts on them, durability, grip, roll in corners etc... Im not concerned with replacing them moreso if they are going to grip sa good as UK sites say!