[WhozDaMastah]

Hiya Fellow RM-

Just outta curiousity, who here still rides these burly creations that will leave a wake of destruction in its path, leap off mountains and cause hernias when putting them onto lifts and shuttles?

I'm talking about the Hood Mussels, Karps Army and the Apoc, ClifCats Turmoil, the Fattys from the Canefield Bros., of course anything that Doc laid his hands on while at BMW and any other bike that made the ground tremble in the early to mid 2000.

Have they become wall art, possibly collecting dust in your garage, maybe even buried deep in the dark bowels of your basement long forgotten or for some lucky ones, begun a new life outside of the USA?

Have they become dinosaurs and are now obsolete?

For those that still swing their legs over these beasts, what comments have you heard from non monster riders?

What a site to behold if these old school behemoths could get together and come down at one time and level the mountain the came down from . . .BWAHAHA

Just curious
W

 

[kidwoo]

You just posted this on a website where guys spend 600 bucks to get their linkages on their bikes anodized to match their socks, and buy new frames to match their new grips because the grips only come in one color.


Good luck!

 

[UiUiUiUi]

oh dear i sooo have to built the canfield fatty fat back up...

http://www.dh-rangers.com/gallery/showphoto-photo-4785-cat-500-ppuser-82.html

http://www.dh-rangers.com/gallery/showphoto-photo-4054-cat-500-ppuser-82.html

http://www.dh-rangers.com/gallery/showphoto-photo-4053-cat-500-ppuser-82.html

 

[William42]

You just posted this on a website where guys spend 600 bucks to get their linkages on their bikes anodized to match their socks, and buy new frames to match their new grips because the grips only come in one color.


Good luck!

 

[Hesh To Steel]

Two words: Captain. America.

 

[jonKranked]

Two words: Captain. America.

with the dual spine protectors?

 

[WhozDaMastah]

You just posted this on a website where guys spend 600 bucks to get their linkages on their bikes anodized to match their socks, and buy new frames to match their new grips because the grips only come in one color.


Good luck!

Sounds like there are more "beauty" than " beasts" up in them hills now

W

 

[slowitdown]

Sounds like there are more "beauty" than " beasts" up in them hills now

W

One of the great ironies in the MTB world is the DH forums filled with people who talk trash about roadies and their ghey lyrcra outfits, while doing exactly what kidwoo said... and wearing pajamas, and doing whatever else they can to ape motocross racers.

It's like those goth and emo kids who "nonconform" by wearing the goth or emo uniform haircut piercings.

HEY! You crazy kids! Get off my lawn!

 

[Hesh To Steel]

with the dual spine protectors?

haha, does he do that? Is it one in the front, one in the rear? or just two on the rear? I hear he used to run an MX fork on his apocalypse. I think now he runs a shiver. I lifted it up in the parking lot once. It felt like an anchor, and I ride a 50 lb bike myself.

 

[jonKranked]

haha, does he do that? Is it one in the front, one in the rear? or just two on the rear? I hear he used to run an MX fork on his apocalypse. I think now he runs a shiver. I lifted it up in the parking lot once. It felt like an anchor, and I ride a 50 lb bike myself.

oh oh oh wait i'm thinking of someone else - pad man

but yea i remember captain america. and yea i think he's running a shiver now

 

[norbar]

haha, does he do that? Is it one in the front, one in the rear? or just two on the rear? I hear he used to run an MX fork on his apocalypse. I think now he runs a shiver. I lifted it up in the parking lot once. It felt like an anchor, and I ride a 50 lb bike myself.

He must have a clone because there is a guy in here who also uses dual spine protectors and rides a super monstered old tomac magnum (well managed to break his super monsters ).

 

[Uncle Cliffy]

I was lucky to have my links anodized black so I could keep my old socks...

 

[roel_koel]

miss my Banshee Scream - total beast!

was doing this kind of riding at the time, so it made complete sense...

 

[4130biker]

quick, someone give me something to bite down on!


props on the burly gap!

 

[c101aviojet]

I miss the times when bikes were built to be used (and abused), not just looked at.

 

[norbar]

I miss the times when bikes were built to be used (and abused), not just looked at.

Yeah most modern bikes break just by looking at them... I'm suprised all the fans of "oldschool hardcore bikes" forget how much of them used to crack and be a PITA and only a handfull of them were bombproof. Don't get me wrong I have a sentiment for old bikes but this arument is silly.

 

[Manifesto]

 

[c101aviojet]

norbar, there have always been bad designs, poor choice of materials and such. Of course, some of those bikes did crack and break despite being anchor weights (and many handled like a loaded garbage truck).

What I criticize is the current trend of lowering weight at all costs. No exotic materials/build techniques have appeared, so if you want to drop grams past a certain point you can only take metal out of the frame; in other words, making a frame with a reduced shelf life - which is okay if you do a couple of runs and your sponsor gives you a new bike, but not if you expect it to last a couple of seasons or try gnarly stuff.

 

[freeridefool]

I love my demo. Its better in every single way over my 05 big hit. But there was something about hucking drops and mashing stairs on that old beast that brings back the good memories.

Errr, maybe it was becasue I sucked. Idk.

 

[norbar]

norbar, there have always been bad designs, poor choice of materials and such. Of course, some of those bikes did crack and break despite being anchor weights (and many handled like a loaded garbage truck).

What I criticize is the current trend of lowering weight at all costs. No exotic materials/build techniques have appeared, so if you want to drop grams past a certain point you can only take metal out of the frame; in other words, making a frame with a reduced shelf life - which is okay if you do a couple of runs and your sponsor gives you a new bike, but not if you expect it to last a couple of seasons or try gnarly stuff.

Yes but dont call it like it was the standard and all the poperly burly bikes are in the past. Only a handfull of well known brands have went superlight (mondraker, trek, intense went back, giant) while many new companies still make burly bikes. The new m9, banshee legend or gt fury are good examples of that (fury acording to gt guys weights close to the alu dhi and carbon is there for strength).
Also I don't think it has to do with mfgs wanting replacable frames, its them noticing that people change their bikes after 2-3 seasons anyway. Most of them also dont ride that hard to damage them. Most of the locals have no problem with their older sessions or glories.

 

[no skid marks]

Also I don't think it has to do with mfgs wanting replacable frames, its them noticing that people change their bikes after 2-3 seasons anyway. Most of them also dont ride that hard to damage them. Most of the locals have no problem with their older sessions or glories.

Manufacturer "Hmm, so if most people change their frames, our warranty is terminated. So the frames should then fail. Then it's new sales all round." " we can sell them as being lighter and more beneficial.
I'm down with lightweight components. But I feel there's no need for frames to not last years, and be repairable. I think that sub 17kg is too light anyway. The focus should be on less unsprung, rotating and high on the bike weight. Get it low.
Racelink is still one of my favorite bikes. If I ad the coin or a welder, I'd love to make a short as possible swingarm for one, and slacken the head angle and drop the BB down. Superco I guess.
For the money we spend, I think we should be getting steel frames(light, and quality)with gearboxs in them. Built to last, but also preform.
We have the technoligy now to make them have adjustable everything geo wise, so why not make em right. even leverage ratios etc could be changable on a good design.

 

[norbar]

Manufacturer "Hmm, so if most people change their frames, our warranty is terminated. So the frames should then fail. Then it's new sales all round." " we can sell them as being lighter and more beneficial.
I'm down with lightweight components. But I feel there's no need for frames to not last years, and be repairable. I think that sub 17kg is too light anyway. The focus should be on less unsprung, rotating and high on the bike weight. Get it low.
Racelink is still one of my favorite bikes. If I ad the coin or a welder, I'd love to make a short as possible swingarm for one, and slacken the head angle and drop the BB down. Superco I guess.
For the money we spend, I think we should be getting steel frames(light, and quality)with gearboxs in them. Built to last, but also preform.
We have the technoligy now to make them have adjustable everything geo wise, so why not make em right. even leverage ratios etc could be changable on a good design.

Yeah I agree. Though Sub 17kg and burly is possible. I think 16-16.5kg depending on the frame is the safe limit. I may go to around 16.3kg with a burly build but that's a lot of strange little ideas.

As for superco - recently a friend of mine who is a steel frame designer poined out one thing to me - all very light steel frames (superco was to be in there with the lightest frames) tend to crack even more than alu ones.

 

[sikocycles]

BMW BigLink #6 built by Doc. Still ride it every so often.

 

[c101aviojet]

...

Yes, there are burly bikes now... and light ones back then. But I'm talking in general, and some years ago, the tendence was to make long travel tanks (and forks); now, weight seems the main issue (and not just on DH). I think it should come in 3rd place after safety and handling, though. Recurring issues in some models such as broken susp. links, head pipes or stays should be a warning.

Most manufacturers will prefer to adapt their product to the current trends instead of standing alone in the market with their "outdated" view (a privilege reserved to small and artisan brands). If people change bikes often, brands can further reduce weight by eliminating metal from the frame - after all, the user will sell the bike before the frame is risky to use, and after that it's not longer their problem.

...

I agree. As of today, 17kg it's a nice "minimum".

sickocycles, would to have one of those. I'd say when that thing goes down it must leave a fire road behind. Turning or going slow must be tricky, though.

 

[cableguy]

Got a friend rocking a 55lb Astrix Havoc with a Monster T and another guy with a 47lb? Canfield Lucky with an Avy fork. They are not hacks either. They go big. Huge road gaps, etc.

 

[xy9ine]

BMW BigLink #6 built by Doc. Still ride it every so often.

awesome. be fun to do back to back runs w/ a modern bike. pretty dramatic evolution of the species.

though i went through a hucking phase, and subsequently broke lots of stuff, i never had a tank bike back in the day. never really believed that was 'the way' towards speed & durability - rather intelligent design / parts selection. there certainly was lots of stuff back then that was hugely overweight with marginal (if any) durability benefits.

of course the tmx was a blip in my ownership timeline; i just loved the design aesthetic, weight be damned; though my build was relatively weenie.

it's pretty amazing what modern race bikes, at current weights, are capable of these days. with effective carbon utilization (or modern steel tubesets - aargh, superco), i think we're going to see impressive longevity & durability as well.

 

[roel_koel]

pretty much all the first generation Banshee Screams cracked - usually at the base of the seat tube / bottom bracket junction

same was true of the first gen. Chaparrals (metallic single colours)

too much metal in the wrong places, not enough in other places, and the frame was actually too rigid meaning the welds tended to pop first

I also had a Scream V2 which worked just fine and did not fail despite some horrible abuse, and a second generation Chaparral (two tone grey) which was also a wicked little bike for north shore stunts and other hucking nonsense

Keith who took over Banshee as the design engineer has used the well known device "strength through flexure" on the new Banshees which has allowed the frames to take more punishment than the old Screams and Chaparalls whilst coming in lighter (not super light) and not the same cracking issues


regarding weight?

I don't really want a super light frame, I would rather save weight on components and have a reasonable weighted frame with long term durability

if you look at the new Devinci Wilson Split-Pivot, its certainly not "light" (not crazy heavy either) and has built in downtube protector (a burly aluminium plate on XP and RC bikes and frame, and carbon fibre on SL bike) and decent wall thicknesses where it matters, and a general feeling of solid built quality with big bearings, big axle pivots and tough axle hardwear

perhaps this is why Devinci offer a lifetime warranty on their frame?

 

[roel_koel]

here are a couple more for you guys to admire:

my buddies Demo 9, which he absolutely loves, its 44lb all in

my 2nd Gen Chaparral

my 2006 Scream V2

my 2005 Devinci Ollie

 

[manhattanprjkt83]

cool thread, early 2000's was a great time to be building/buying bike parts, those tanks were fun for what it's worth...glad we are at the point we are now.

 

[norbar]

Yes, there are burly bikes now... and light ones back then. But I'm talking in general, and some years ago, the tendence was to make long travel tanks (and forks); now, weight seems the main issue (and not just on DH). I think it should come in 3rd place after safety and handling, though. Recurring issues in some models such as broken susp. links, head pipes or stays should be a warning.

Most manufacturers will prefer to adapt their product to the current trends instead of standing alone in the market with their "outdated" view (a privilege reserved to small and artisan brands). If people change bikes often, brands can further reduce weight by eliminating metal from the frame - after all, the user will sell the bike before the frame is risky to use, and after that it's not longer their problem.


I agree. As of today, 17kg it's a nice "minimum".

sickocycles, would to have one of those. I'd say when that thing goes down it must leave a fire road behind. Turning or going slow must be tricky, though.

I think the lightweight trend slowed down a bit. Trek is making their frame more burly and some of the new frames from known companies are not exactly super light - not only the ones I mentioned before but also Tr450 or Yeti. I think you look at the big brands too much. Yes some of them sell/market their bikes as very light but thats a small % of the market. Even the new demo isn't teribly light.

As for 17kg - with a 5kg frame I got a 16.5kg bike on 823 wheels, atlas cranks, straitline guide and saint brakes. 17kg is a safe bet if you don't want to overthink the build but that's not the minimum.

 

[WhozDaMastah]

BMW BigLink #6 built by Doc. Still ride it every so often.

I was wonderin when Sikocycles was gonna chime in (thanks)

Have there been any comments towards your behemoth by modern day riders that you'd care to share?

I've always admired the BigLink, espeically when an Avy MTN-8 is attached to it!

Keep on Rockin That Beast

W

 

[no skid marks]

As for superco - recently a friend of mine who is a steel frame designer pointed out one thing to me - all very light steel frames (superco was to be in there with the lightest frames) tend to crack even more than alu ones.

Pffft, based on what? Based on supertherm steel Superco are using that aparently doesn't suffer from the heat of welds as much.
Or is he basing it on 29ers, that the flexy stays make the welds pop on. Steel has a higher fatigue life than ally. Anyone can make a poor frame out of any material, as we'll see with the wave of new carbon frames coming out. Aluminum would be the worst metal for frame building IMO, it's just cheap, and easy due to being able to use CNC chinks etc.

 

[Percy]

 

[norbar]

Pffft, based on what? Based on supertherm steel Superco are using that aparently doesn't suffer from the heat of welds as much.
Or is he basing it on 29ers, that the flexy stays make the welds pop on. Steel has a higher fatigue life than ally. Anyone can make a poor frame out of any material, as we'll see with the wave of new carbon frames coming out. Aluminum would be the worst metal for frame building IMO, it's just cheap, and easy due to being able to use CNC chinks etc.

Based on him designing around 5-10 (cant remember ) hardtail frame that sell in quite large numbers and don't crack No it's not 29ers it's dirtjump,4x,fr frames. I know cro-mo in theory has higher fatigue life but that's why that suprised me.

 

[roel_koel]

the problem with lighter-weight cromoly steel frames (regardless of high end tubeset i.e Reynolds heat treated / stainless, True Temper super therm) is that steel still has a high density which means getting the weight down, means reducing tubing wall thickness makes the frame vulnerable to "beercanning" and "denting"

I had 2 different KHS Montana Pro steel XC frames "back in the day" that were the nicest riding hardtails I ever owned - made from True Temper OX Ultra II heat treated cromoly steel

but at only 4lb for the frame weight, I ruined both frames in very minor crashes during a XC race (beercanned) and an XC ride (dented with cracks), that would not have caused any damage to a 4lb aluminium alloy frame - I've had many crashes on steel and aluminium frames over the years!

aluminium definitely has a long-term problem with fatigue, but light weight steel frames tend to dent / crack or bend quite easily, despite the material itself having very high tensile strength and young's modulus properties


we've also seen this in BMX (I've ridden BMX for 25+ years) where the cromoly steel frames got way too light in the past few years, and easily cracked within months of purchase, or actually broke whilst being ridden = scary

I would not trust any BMX frame under 4.5lb regardless of whatever "super cromo" it was made from

 

[norbar]

NS Suburban in 09 was 1.9kg if I remember right and you could kick the toptube off and they cracked under many people really easy. Since that time they beefed the frame up. There are light-ish reliable cro-mo frames but for hardtrails around 2.1kg seems to be the lowest I've seen without fail.

 

[ScarredOne]

This.

the problem with lighter-weight cromoly steel frames (regardless of high end tubeset i.e Reynolds heat treated / stainless, True Temper super therm) is that steel still has a high density which means getting the weight down, means reducing tubing wall thickness makes the frame vulnerable to "beercanning" and "denting"

I had 2 different KHS Montana Pro steel XC frames "back in the day" that were the nicest riding hardtails I ever owned - made from True Temper OX Ultra II heat treated cromoly steel

but at only 4lb for the frame weight, I ruined both frames in very minor crashes during a XC race (beercanned) and an XC ride (dented with cracks), that would not have caused any damage to a 4lb aluminium alloy frame - I've had many crashes on steel and aluminium frames over the years!

aluminium definitely has a long-term problem with fatigue, but light weight steel frames tend to dent / crack or bend quite easily, despite the material itself having very high tensile strength and young's modulus properties


we've also seen this in BMX (I've ridden BMX for 25+ years) where the cromoly steel frames got way too light in the past few years, and easily cracked within months of purchase, or actually broke whilst being ridden = scary

I would not trust any BMX frame under 4.5lb regardless of whatever "super cromo" it was made from

 

[RD3]

Hoods, Spookys, Risse... fun bikes.

 

[Uncle Cliffy]

Those Lassens = bucket of bolts.

 

[WhozDaMastah]

Hoods, Spookys, Risse... fun bikes.

Hiya RD3-

Didja ever sell that "Bad" Hood Mussel?

Another rolling thunder I liked.

Thanks for sharing

W