[Udi]

I've been thirsting for this for years - I understand the kevlar/folding beads are weaker but surely they can be made slightly stronger or slightly tighter to be appropriate for DH use.

What I don't understand is why every kevlar/folding bead tyre comes with a compromised casing - I want the full 1200-1250g DH tyre (the Minion DHF 2.5, Magic Mary 2.35, etc) with the steel bead swapped for something lighter.

I just read the Jared Graves article on pinkbike where he talks about the "Double Down" casing from Maxxis which sounds pretty close to what I'm looking for, but the marketing material doesn't make it clear if the casing is identical to the DH 2-ply or not. Does anyone know? Any compromise in that casing means raising the pressure and losing grip to reduce rim damage / flats - which is stupid. Less weight is great, but not at the direct cost of traction and reliability. Obviously the product is a great idea for Enduro as a step up from EXO, but it's a step down for full DH use unless they kept the casing identical.

I know the world is all about Enduro now so this will probably never happen, but figured it might be fun to throw this out there in case I'm not the only one.

 

[Dirk77]

I'd buy said tire in a heart beat!!

Of course it wouldn't be available in 26" though.. there would be some marketing spiel about how inefficient the 26" wheel is with a 12x142 axle and market studies show that since 17% of mountain bikers have made the switch 27.5, it just couldn't be cost effective for the other 83% of the market because boost hub standards. boost and 26 aren't even compatible because, well enduro ya know.. Plus the 27.5 has a 2% better grip in corners so its totally badass..

 

[Muddy]

MAXXIS 2016 catalog shows alot of improved areas so long as 26" is not important. This new casing is probably as-near to a wire bead DH casing, of course MAXXIS only knows. If Jared Graves can control a boner over them, I might check it out next year.

 

[Dogboy]

DD casing is 120tpi vs. 60tpi for a wire bead Maxxis DH casing. So not 100% the same, but should be comparable in terms of durability but lighter. I'm hoping that's the case.

 

[SkaredShtles]

I just got a Michelin Wild Rock'R2 - perhaps similar to what you're looking for? Kevlar bead, 110tpi casing... right around 1100g. It seems beefy and I've yet to flat it (mounted tubeless on the rear).

 

[HAB]

I just got a Michelin Wild Rock'R2 - perhaps similar to what you're looking for? Kevlar bead, 110tpi casing... right around 1100g. It seems beefy and I've yet to flat it (mounted tubeless on the rear).

Those are a really, really good tire (put one up front, the cornering traction is nuts) but they're definitely not as tough a casing as a real DH tire. I'd put them somewhere between that and the Maxxis Exo.

 

[kidwoo]

^Yeah those wyldrokkkkkRs aren't dh casings. I split one literally the first day out on some mavic crossmax sx wheels. To be fair I've split every non dh tire I've ever had on those rims....... but not the dh casings.


As someone who's blown a tire off a rim going up a rather large jump lip, I'd be weary of the stretching. Not like steel doesn't stretch by any means but it does seem like the Kevlar/aramid beads get a little more loosey goosey when they're worn.

 

[Muddy]

As someone who's blown a tire off a rim going up a rather large jump lip, I'd be weary of the stretching. Not like steel doesn't stretch by any means but it does seem like the Kevlar/aramid beads get a little more loosey goosey when they're worn.

So - Schwalbe/Syntace PROCORE if here?

 

[RayB]

Udi, have you tried the Schwalbe Super Gravity casing? http://www.schwalbetires.com/super_gravity_revolutionary_carcass_technology_for_mtb

I rode a full Southern California season on tubeless Super-Gravity Rock Razor rear / Magic Mary front and they held up without a hiccup.

Maxxis EXO is a joke -- that shit is not durable.

 

[ZHendo]

Even Super Gravity loses casing thickness right under the tread...lots of companies have been beefing up sidewalls to near-DH thicknesses, but casing thickness under the tread seems to be where everyone is hunting for weight savings.

I've found the Continental Apex casing to be quite burly, held up better than the Schwalbe Super Gravity for me. Still doesn't have DH thickness, and aside from the old Rain King I haven't gotten along with Conti tread patterns all that well.

 

[jackalope]

Wow, I always wondered what Thor Wixom was doing thesedays. Nice to see he staying the mountain bike industry

 

[Gary]

Here's the part of the Graves interview you should have been paying attention to.

"I don't know why people bother trying to save 20 grams here and there - it just seems ridiculous"

 

[slyfink]

http://www.wtb.com/products/vigilante

I thought I read somewhere that the TCS Tough is dual casing... but I can't seem to find that anywhere now. I rode the TCS light as a front tire and it was fine, and I've just ordered a TCS tough to see what it's all about. I'll update once I get my hands on it.

 

[iRider]

I've been thirsting for this for years - I understand the kevlar/folding beads are weaker but surely they can be made slightly stronger or slightly tighter to be appropriate for DH use.

What about Maxxis UST DH tires? Around 1200 g, foldable, easy to set up tubeless. Besides cuts trouble free for me.

 

[MmmBones]

Here's the part of the Graves interview you should have been paying attention to.

"I don't know why people bother trying to save 20 grams here and there - it just seems ridiculous"

maybe you should have paid attn to this part: "I can be a bit of a weight weenie in places where it actually matters. I just don't want any unnecessary weight on my bike" y'now, by running tires hundreds of grams lighter than a DH casing, because that weight is unnecessary, like the article explains. If you can make a DH tire that's just as durable but lighter, why not?

 

[Gary]

Don't just make shit up dude!
Have you ever run a kevlar bead DH tyre?
Fuck that floppy sidewall shit for the sake of 20g

 

[kidwoo]

Well.........*burp*......to be fair.

*glug*glug*glug* (scratches self).........I don't give a *burp* fuck about being in as good a physical shape as mr Mapei Jersey

That shit's hard work.

So I'm gonna *burp*fart* build up a light bike.

 

[rollertoaster]

http://www.wtb.com/products/vigilante

I thought I read somewhere that the TCS Tough is dual casing... but I can't seem to find that anywhere now. I rode the TCS light as a front tire and it was fine, and I've just ordered a TCS tough to see what it's all about. I'll update once I get my hands on it.

I have done about 6 days (3 very rocky ones) on the tough casing vigilante. No flats yet and I have definitely bottomed rim out on a few rocks. I've run the tire on both a carbon, and a dt 471 rim.
I'm very interested in these new double down casing tires.
And I have a pair of wild gripr's on the wayway to try as well

 

[MmmBones]

Don't just make shit up dude!
Have you ever run a kevlar bead DH tyre?
Fuck that floppy sidewall shit for the sake of 20g

Make stuff up? That quote is from the article, which discusses why he's using lighter tires. The 20g weight savings blurb was about the bashguard, which is a great place to add unsprung weight. . Last time I ran kevlar "DH" tires was 1998 and they were IRC Kujo and MudMads, and I don't think those were even dual-ply. I would run a kevlar dual-ply if it provided just as much support and cut protection as the wire bead, but at a slightly higher cost and lower weight. The only dual-ply kevlar bead tire I'm aware of is the Vee-Rubber, and hell no to that shit. And what do you know, It's not the bead that makes the sidewall stiff, it's the dual-ply casing and the rubber insert they use to reinforce it. A kevlar bead would save around 60g per tire, so we're talking 120g savings, not a measly 20g. (edit: 2.5x27.5 DHF DD saves 440g/pair)

 

[kidwoo]

Chainguides are sprung weight man!

Unless you're on a klein mantra of course. Which everyone should be.

 

[HAB]

Chainguides are sprung weight man!

Unless you're on a klein mantra of course. Which everyone should be.

Or you're running a chainstay mounted guide, in the place of a direct mount derailleur.

Speaking of unrideable sprung weight, I just put a 203mm front/180mm rear rotor setup on my BTR. It's going to be too heavy to move now, not to mention all the rubbing.

 

[MmmBones]

MAXXIS 2016 catalog shows alot of improved areas so long as 26" is not important. This new casing is probably as-near to a wire bead DH casing, of course MAXXIS only knows. If Jared Graves can control a boner over them, I might check it out next year.

Thanks for sharing that. I took a close look and Maxxis DOES have a new and improved 26" tire for '016:

a 2.5 Shorty EXO/3C/TR Wide-Trail casing

That's great news if you live in the PNW and refuse to give up your perfectly good 26'er

Judging by the graphix, the DD casing has the butyl insert and full dual-ply (albeit 120tpi) casing and Maxx-grippy compound. Will be interesting to see if any WC racers use them next year. The Schwalbe Super-Gravity was only used by Marcello Gutierrez year-round. Other dudes only ran them at PMB previously, AFAIK.

 

[MmmBones]

Chainguides are sprung weight man!

Unless you're on a klein mantra of course. Which everyone should be.

My bad. I meant sprung weight. And yes, WE SHOULD!!

 

[HAB]

Thanks for sharing that. I took a close look and Maxxis DOES have a new and improved 26" tire for '016:

a 2.5 Shorty EXO/3C/TR Wide-Trail casing

That's great news if you live in the PNW and refuse to give up your perfectly good 26'er.

I'm surprised at that, a 2.5 mud spike sounds dumb. If you're at the point where a spike makes sense, I'd rather have something narrower to cut through better.

And I say that as someone who likes the 2.3 Shorty.

 

[kidwoo]

Speaking of unrideable sprung weight, I just put a 203mm front/180mm rear rotor setup on my BTR. It's going to be too heavy to move now, not to mention all the rubbing.

Oh great. Children everywhere have just gone autistic from the annoying scraping sound.

I hope you're happy.

 

[MmmBones]

I'm surprised at that, a 2.5 mud spike sounds dumb. If you're at the point where a spike makes sense, I'd rather have something narrower to cut through better.

And I say that as someone who likes the 2.3 Shorty.

I like mine too, but I ran the Dirty Dans for a few years and they were hella moar grippy than the narrower Wet Screams I had previously. The 2.4 DH Shorty is about the same volume and width as the Dirty Dan, and they are much better in Muddy/rocky/rooty and Loose/Dry than the 2.3... Maxxis show the 2.5 WT casing to be slightly wider @ 63mm vs 61mm for the 2.4, so I'd image it supports the side knobs better with the single-ply casing, whether or not you use 35mm wide rims

 

[HAB]

Oh great. Children everywhere have just gone autistic from the annoying scraping sound.

I hope you're happy.

Take it easy Jenny. My rotors are actually true.

 

[Gary]

Make stuff up?

Yeah. The fantasy that spewed from your keyboard after the quotation marks.

I'd be surprised if you'd save anywhere close to 60g by switching from a steel bead to a Kevlar bead if you kept the rest of the bead/sidewall construction the same (as Udi is proposing)

Can some dork please weigh and photograph some steel beads cut from a bunch of dual plys to substantiate this pointless arguement?

 

[Muddy]

Thanks for sharing that. I took a close look and Maxxis DOES have a new and improved 26" tire for '016:

a 2.5 Shorty EXO/3C/TR Wide-Trail casing

That's great news if you live in the PNW and refuse to give up your perfectly good 26'er

Judging by the graphix, the DD casing has the butyl insert and full dual-ply (albeit 120tpi) casing and Maxx-grippy compound. Will be interesting to see if any WC racers use them next year. The Schwalbe Super-Gravity was only used by Marcello Gutierrez year-round. Other dudes only ran them at PMB previously, AFAIK.

I saw that too.
To weigh in the Tough Vigilante - two consecutive rides ( a race weekend and only practice the following weekend ) were great, they claw the trails crossing the slopes like nothing. Next ride (two months later) I saw the tread shredding a bit, and that grip? Gone. Dunno if it was this Fast-Rolling casing, the tread or any combination of these with the kevlar bead which gave up. I was really jazzed about them though.
WTB should re-up the design. Make a 2.5 Vigilante Jazzer.

 

[slimshady]

Take it easy Jenny. My rotors are actually true.

I for one salute out new imaginary rotor overlords.

 

[slyfink]

I saw that too.
To weigh in the Tough Vigilante - two consecutive rides ( a race weekend and only practice the following weekend ) were great, they claw the trails crossing the slopes like nothing. Next ride (two months later) I saw the tread shredding a bit, and that grip? Gone. Dunno if it was this Fast-Rolling casing, the tread or any combination of these with the kevlar bead which gave up. I was really jazzed about them though.
WTB should re-up the design. Make a 2.5 Vigilante Jazzer.

I kinda had the same issue with my new Nobby Nic's this year. (fwiw, I find the tread/block pattern to be very similar). But the big blocks (what gives them grip) also tend to get hung up on shit and get pulled out of the casing. I've experienced a number of flats with them this year due to the intermediate knobs getting lifted out of the casing. I was hoping the Tough Vigilante, with its dual 60tpi casing, would alleviate that. The tire is ordered, I will be finding out next year I guess...

 

[Udi]

Here's the part of the Graves interview you should have been paying attention to.

"The 1800s are calling, Gary!"

Lovely portrait of yourself atop your velocipede, fine sir. I bid you good day.

 

[jackalope]

Lovely portrait of yourself atop your velocipede, fine sir. I bid you good day.

Luke Strobel would win all the WC's astride that beaut...

 

[kidwoo]

Thad will be along shortly to proclaim their popularity in the PNW.

 

[wydopen]

Maxxis EXO is a joke -- that shit is not durable.

You people must be much faster than me or not nearly as smooth because I have had very few problems with exo casings riding some pretty rocky stuff....Ive poked a few holes in the tread and maybe twice at the bead but 90% of those times I was getting a little too low on the psi and only with rear tires...I ride allot and out of the 25 or so worn exo tires in my garage less than 5 have plugs in them.....I do swap rear tires every month or so or about 16-20 rides so that might have something to do with it...maybe they start to break down after awhile

 

[kidwoo]

Take it easy Jenny. My rotors are actually true.

The rotors weren't the problem.

And stop calling me shirley.

 

[jonKranked]

Wow, I always wondered what Thor Wixom was doing thesedays. Nice to see he staying the mountain bike industry

i came across my old MTB VHS tapes the other day. this was among them

 

[big-ted]

I also found the Exo casings to suck balls. I've had good luck with the Specialized Grid casing fwiw. Not sure I'd run it on a DH bike but, you know, we have proper DH trails here.

 

[RayB]

You people must be much faster than me or not nearly as smooth because I have had very few problems with exo casings riding some pretty rocky stuff....Ive poked a few holes in the tread and maybe twice at the bead but 90% of those times I was getting a little too low on the psi and only with rear tires...I ride allot and out of the 25 or so worn exo tires in my garage less than 5 have plugs in them.....I do swap rear tires every month or so or about 16-20 rides so that might have something to do with it...maybe they start to break down after awhile

Fair points.

I think Udi (OP) lives in Whistler & having lived there for a summer myself, I can say for certain that the Maxxis EXO can't hang. For a trail bike, it's a great compromise of weight vs. a little extra durability (I have one on the rear of my 29derp currently...) but there's a limit to that.

 

[dump]

Are we talking EXO with tubes or without? Perhaps it doesn't make a difference. I've been running it on the trail bike with tubes and real pressures for some years w/o issue.