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Why this censorship "cool"???

Andyman_1970

Turbo Monkey
Apr 4, 2003
3,105
5
The Natural State
Rewriting The Science

March 19, 2006
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(CBS) As a government scientist, James Hansen is taking a risk. He says there are things the White House doesn't want you to hear but he's going to say them anyway.

Hansen is arguably the world's leading researcher on global warming. He's the head of NASA's top institute studying the climate. But this imminent scientist tells correspondent Scott Pelley that the Bush administration is restricting who he can talk to and editing what he can say. Politicians, he says, are rewriting the science.

But he didn't hold back speaking to Pelley, telling 60 Minutes what he knows.


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Asked if he believes the administration is censoring what he can say to the public, Hansen says: "Or they're censoring whether or not I can say it. I mean, I say what I believe if I'm allowed to say it."

What James Hansen believes is that global warming is accelerating. He points to the melting arctic and to Antarctica, where new data show massive losses of ice to the sea.

Is it fair to say at this point that humans control the climate? Is that possible?

"There's no doubt about that, says Hansen. "The natural changes, the speed of the natural changes is now dwarfed by the changes that humans are making to the atmosphere and to the surface."

Those human changes, he says, are driven by burning fossil fuels that pump out greenhouse gases like CO2, carbon dioxide. Hansen says his research shows that man has just 10 years to reduce greenhouse gases before global warming reaches what he calls a tipping point and becomes unstoppable. He says the White House is blocking that message.

"In my more than three decades in the government I've never witnessed such restrictions on the ability of scientists to communicate with the public," says Hansen.

Restrictions like this e-mail Hansen's institute received from NASA in 2004. "… there is a new review process … ," the e-mail read. "The White House (is) now reviewing all climate related press releases," it continued.

Why the scrutiny of Hansen's work? Well, his Goddard Institute for Space Studies is the source of respected but sobering research on warming. It recently announced 2005 was the warmest year on record. Hansen started at NASA more than 30 years ago, spending nearly all that time studying the earth. How important is his work? 60 Minutes asked someone at the top, Ralph Cicerone, president of the nation’s leading institute of science, the National Academy of Sciences.

"I can't think of anybody who I would say is better than Hansen. You might argue that there's two or three others as good, but nobody better," says Cicerone.

And Cicerone, who’s an atmospheric chemist, said the same thing every leading scientist told 60 Minutes.

"Climate change is really happening," says Cicerone.

Asked what is causing the changes, Cicernone says it's greenhouse gases: "Carbon dioxide and methane, and chlorofluorocarbons and a couple of others, which are all — the increases in their concentrations in the air are due to human activities. It's that simple."

But if it is that simple, why do some climate science reports look like they have been heavily edited at the White House? With science labeled "not sufficiently reliable." It’s a tone of scientific uncertainty the president set in his first months in office after he pulled out of a global treaty to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

"We do not know how much our climate could, or will change in the future," President Bush said in 2001, speaking in the Rose Garden of the White House. "We do not know how fast change will occur, or even how some of our actions could impact it."

Annoyed by the ambiguity, Hansen went public a year and a half ago, saying this about the Bush administration in a talk at the University of Iowa: "I find a willingness to listen only to those portions of scientific results that fit predetermined inflexible positions. This, I believe, is a recipe for environmental disaster."

Since then, NASA has been keeping an eye on Hansen. NASA let Pelley sit down with him but only with a NASA representative taping the interview. Other interviews have been denied.

"I object to the fact that I’m not able to freely communicate via the media," says Hansen. "National Public Radio wanted to interview me and they were told they would need to interview someone at NASA headquarters and the comment was made that they didn’t want Jim Hansen going on the most liberal media in America. So I don’t think that kind of decision should be made on that kind of basis. I think we should be able to communicate the science."

Politically, Hansen calls himself an independent and he’s had trouble with both parties. He says, from time to time, the Clinton administration wanted to hear warming was worse that it was. But Hansen refused to spin the science that way.

"Should we be simply doing our science and reporting it rigorously, or to what degree the administration in power has the right to assume that you should be a spokesman for the administration?" asks Hansen. "I've tried to be a straight scientist doing the science and reporting it as best I can."

Dozens of federal agencies report science but much of it is edited at the White House before it is sent to Congress and the public. It appears climate science is edited with a heavy hand. Drafts of climate reports were co-written by Rick Piltz for the federal Climate Change Science Program. But Piltz says his work was edited by the White House to make global warming seem less threatening.

"The strategy of people with a political agenda to avoid this issue is to say there is so much to study way upstream here that we can’t even being to discuss impacts and response strategies," says Piltz. "There’s too much uncertainty. It's not the climate scientists that are saying that, its lawyers and politicians."

Piltz worked under the Clinton and Bush administrations. Each year, he helped write a report to Congress called "Our Changing Planet."

Piltz says he is responsible for editing the report and sending a review draft to the White House.

Asked what happens, Piltz says: "It comes back with a large number of edits, handwritten on the hard copy by the chief-of-staff of the Council on Environmental Quality."

Asked who the chief of staff is, Piltz says, "Phil Cooney."

Piltz says Cooney is not a scientist. "He's a lawyer. He was a lobbyist for the American Petroleum Institute, before going into the White House," he says.

Cooney, the former oil industry lobbyist, became chief-of-staff at the White House Council on Environmental Quality. Piltz says Cooney edited climate reports in his own hand. In one report, a line that said earth is undergoing rapid change becomes “may be undergoing change.” “Uncertainty” becomes “significant remaining uncertainty.” One line that says energy production contributes to warming was just crossed out.

"He was obviously passing it through a political screen," says Piltz. "He would put in the word potential or may or weaken or delete text that had to do with the likely consequence of climate change, pump up uncertainty language throughout."


In a report, Piltz says Cooney added this line “… the uncertainties remain so great as to preclude meaningfully informed decision making. …” References to human health are marked out. 60 Minutes obtained the drafts from the Government Accountability Project. This edit made it into the final report: the phrase “earth may be” undergoing change made it into the report to Congress. Piltz says there wasn’t room at the White House for those who disagreed, so he resigned.

"Even to raise issues internally is immediately career limiting," says Piltz. "That’s why you will find not too many people in the federal agencies who will speak freely about all the things they know, unless they’re retired or unless they’re ready to resign."

Jim Hansen isn't retiring or resigning because he believes earth is nearing a point of no return. He urged 60 Minutes to look north to the arctic, where temperatures are rising twice as fast as the rest of the world. When 60 Minutes visited Greenland this past August, we saw for ourselves the accelerating melt of the largest ice sheet in the north.

"Here in Greenland about 15 years ago the ice sheet extended to right about where I'm standing now, but today, its back there, between those two hills in the shaded area. Glaciologists call this a melt stream but, these days, its a more like a melt river," Pelley said, standing at the edge of Greenland's ice sheet.

The Bush administration doesn’t deny global warming or that man plays a role. The administration is spending billions of dollars on climate research. Hansen gives the White House credit for research but says what’s urgent now is action.

"We have to, in the next 10 years, get off this exponential curve and begin to decrease the rate of growth of CO2 emissions," Hansen explains. "And then flatten it out. And before we get to the middle of the century, we’ve got to be on a declining curve.

"If that doesn't happen in 10 years, then I don’t think we can keep global warming under one degree Celsius and that means we’re going to, that there’s a great danger of passing some of these tipping points. If the ice sheets begin to disintegrate, what can you do about it? You can’t tie a rope around the ice sheet. You can’t build a wall around the ice sheets. It will be a situation that is out of our control."

But that's not a situation you'll find in one federal report submitted for review. Government scientists wanted to tell you about the ice sheets, but before a draft of the report left the White House, the paragraph on glacial melt and flooding was crossed out and this was added: "straying from research strategy into speculative findings and musings here."

Hansen says his words were edited once during a presentation when a top official scolded him for using the word danger.

"I think we know a lot more about the tipping points," says Hansen. "I think we know about the dangers of even a moderate degree of additional global warming about the potential effects in the arctic about the potential effects on the ice sheets."

"You just used that word again that you’re not supposed to use — danger," Pelley remarks.

"Yeah. It’s a danger," Hansen says.

For months, 60 Minutes had been trying to talk with the president’s science advisor. 60 Minutes was finally told he would never be available. Phil Cooney, the editor at the Council on Environmental Quality didn’t return 60 Minutes' calls. In June, he left the White House and went to work for Exxon Mobil.
 

Andyman_1970

Turbo Monkey
Apr 4, 2003
3,105
5
The Natural State
Does anyone else see a conflict of interst with the now former cheif of staff of enviormental quality being a former oil industry lobbist???

Also, my wife made an interesting comment while watching this last night she said "good greif, do we live in a communist state........all this censorship sounds like the USSR back in the day".
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
54,595
20,408
Sleazattle
Andyman_1970 said:
Does anyone else see a conflict of interst with the now former cheif of staff of enviormental quality being a former oil industry lobbist???
Haha.

Do you think the administration who put the former oil lobbyist in an environmental job had any interest in the environment?

Those ****ers make me sick.
 

Andyman_1970

Turbo Monkey
Apr 4, 2003
3,105
5
The Natural State
Westy said:
Those ****ers make me sick.
I hate to say it, for one reason because I voted for GWB, but I find more and more he and his staff loosing credibility with me.

The head in the sand approach about the envoirment is just plain stupid, esspecially if it is the result of catering to special interest. It seems a bit hypocritical of them to rail on the Dem's for bowing to special interest when their own house is not clean.
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
54,595
20,408
Sleazattle
Andyman_1970 said:
I hate to say it, for one reason because I voted for GWB, but I find more and more he and his staff loosing credibility with me.

The head in the sand approach about the envoirment is just plain stupid, esspecially if it is the result of catering to special interest. It seems a bit hypocritical of them to rail on the Dem's for bowing to special interest when their own house is not clean.
I'm not trying to pigeonhole you into any categories but it seems anymore most people vote for someone because of single emotional issues. Issues that hardly ever have anything done about them. People don't vote for someone because they would make a good overall leader. Why did you vote for Bush, or any other candidate for that matter?
 

Old Man G Funk

Choir Boy
Nov 21, 2005
2,864
0
In a handbasket
This is a pretty well documented phenomena with the current admin. There's even been books written about it (The Republican War on Science by Chris Mooney, for instance.) The Union of Concerned Scientists was founded to document all the science abuses by this admin. and has been putting out reports for a couple years now.

Recently, there was a report about a guy who tried to suppress mention of the big bang from NASA reports. Turns out the guy was a policy hack who even lied about graduating from Texas A&M on his resume.

It's about time that people have come forward to speak up and I applaud Hansen for doing just that.
 

Andyman_1970

Turbo Monkey
Apr 4, 2003
3,105
5
The Natural State
Westy said:
Why did you vote for Bush, or any other candidate for that matter?
In 2004, because I was lead to believe that's what good conservative Christians do.............blah.

What I failed to realize, esspecially politically until about a year ago, is that one canidate can agree with your beliefs on one issue (example abortion) but can miss several other issues that can be just as morally (at least from the Bible's point of view) important...........poverty for instance, or the environment.
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
54,595
20,408
Sleazattle
Andyman_1970 said:
In 2004, because I was lead to believe that's what good conservative Christians do.............blah.

What I failed to realize, esspecially politically until about a year ago, is that one canidate can agree with your beliefs on one issue (example abortion) but can miss several other issues that can be just as morally (at least from the Bible's point of view) important...........poverty for instance, or the environment.
What has Bush done for abortion, or any other president for that matter? I am sure there are a whole bunch of people who vote on that one topic and in the end it makes no difference. Not to mention I bet there are a lot more people who voted for him because of tax breaks but those people saw little to no difference in their tax rate.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
Westy said:
What has Bush done for abortion, or any other president for that matter? I am sure there are a whole bunch of people who vote on that one topic and in the end it makes no difference.
I'm guessing that when the data comes through in a few years, the abortion rate will show an increasing trend. Remember, in this country a baby is a beautiful gift from God until is punches out of the womb. Once it clears the vagina, it's a little brown tax parasite that you don't want sitting next to your WASP kids in school.

It's not getting easier to be poor in this country and raise an unwanted child. That, and pushing abstinence only sex ed...
 

Andyman_1970

Turbo Monkey
Apr 4, 2003
3,105
5
The Natural State
Westy said:
What has Bush done for abortion, or any other president for that matter?
You know the typical religious right hype that he is a "pro life" president (I don't buy that these days).........but that was the reasoning then as flawed as it was.
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
14,365
2,473
Pōneke
The environmental damage that the Bush junta refuses to address fvcks me off so bad. It's not HIS planet to screw over. It belongs to everyone. The fact that 2% of the world's population still produce 25% of the pollution, especially in the supposedly 'most advanced' country literally enrages me.
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
54,595
20,408
Sleazattle
Silver said:
I'm guessing that when the data comes through in a few years, the abortion rate will show an increasing trend. Remember, in this country a baby is a beautiful gift from God until is punches out of the womb. Once it clears the vagina, it's a little brown tax parasite that you don't want sitting next to your WASP kids in school.

It's not getting easier to be poor in this country and raise an unwanted child. That, and pushing abstinence only sex ed...

If the poor don't get poorer and multiply faster how else can we get cheap labor and keep the illegal immigrants out?
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
24
SF, CA
Silver said:
Remember, in this country a baby is a beautiful gift from God until is punches out of the womb.
Because the reality is that most of them don't really care about "saving a life" (witness the same person's stance on capital punishment) they really just want to punish unmarried teens for the sin of pre-marital sex, and pregnancy is just that punishment. Nothing pisses off the true die-hards more than a "get-out-of-responsibility-free card," which is exactly how they view abortion.
 

Old Man G Funk

Choir Boy
Nov 21, 2005
2,864
0
In a handbasket
Silver said:
I'm guessing that when the data comes through in a few years, the abortion rate will show an increasing trend. Remember, in this country a baby is a beautiful gift from God until is punches out of the womb. Once it clears the vagina, it's a little brown tax parasite that you don't want sitting next to your WASP kids in school.

It's not getting easier to be poor in this country and raise an unwanted child. That, and pushing abstinence only sex ed...
Let's not forget the last part of that, which is refusing birth control to women. To stay on topic, the FDA panel and the morning after pill constitutes yet another example of the Bush admin. messing with science.
 

Andyman_1970

Turbo Monkey
Apr 4, 2003
3,105
5
The Natural State
ohio said:
Because the reality is that most of them don't really care about "saving a life" (witness the same person's stance on capital punishment) they really just want to punish unmarried teens for the sin of pre-marital sex, and pregnancy is just that punishment. Nothing pisses off the true die-hards more than a "get-out-of-responsibility-free card," which is exactly how they view abortion.
Interesting you connect abortion and capital punishment............

I got into a raging debate on the Christian forum I frequent on this very subject. The thread was deleted otherwise I would have posted a link to it so you can see the disgusting comments. Needless to say the overwhelming position on the matter was hypocritical and stomach turning to say the least.
 

dante

Unabomber
Feb 13, 2004
8,807
9
looking for classic NE singletrack
Andyman_1970 said:
You know the typical religious right hype that he is a "pro life" president (I don't buy that these days).........but that was the reasoning then as flawed as it was.
wow, that's kind of refreshing to see an example of the divisive hot-button issues that the repubs were able to use to stay in power. they used religion when discussing abortion and gay-marriage so that nobody would discuss the failing Iraq war, the ballooning deficit, the environmental issues, etc.

didn't really see it where I live (northeast, where even the republicans are liberals and for the most part pro-choice), so it's interesting to see that you have seen past it and will take more things into consideration during the next election cycle.

:thumb:
 

Old Man G Funk

Choir Boy
Nov 21, 2005
2,864
0
In a handbasket
And they'll continue to use it, since it has been so effective over the last however many election cycles. I suspect it will continue to work. People who wake up and see through the BS, as Andyman has, are probably few and far between.
 

Andyman_1970

Turbo Monkey
Apr 4, 2003
3,105
5
The Natural State
dante said:
they used religion when discussing abortion and gay-marriage so that nobody would discuss the failing Iraq war, the ballooning deficit, the environmental issues, etc.
The interesting thing is so many conservative Christians jump on the Republican band wagon because of two issues without considering all the ways that the Republicans have some un Biblical stands on issues like the environment, poverty and corporate fraud.

I myself now find myself in a bit of a political quandry, while I am pro life (which also means I oppose the death penality) I am also pro environment, pro caring for the poor, disadvantaged and marginalized............which leaves few canidates that fit that bill.

I really wish more of my evangelical brothers and sisters would wake up to this...............
 

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
5,673
2
Feeling the lag
Andyman_1970 said:
The interesting thing is so many conservative Christians jump on the Republican band wagon because of two issues without considering all the ways that the Republicans have some un Biblical stands on issues like the environment, poverty and corporate fraud.

I myself now find myself in a bit of a political quandry, while I am pro life (which also means I oppose the death penality) I am also pro environment, pro caring for the poor, disadvantaged and marginalized............which leaves few canidates that fit that bill.

I really wish more of my evangelical brothers and sisters would wake up to this...............
Perhaps you need to start a Christian Fundamentalist political movement and push for a theocracy, or at the very least a constitution based in biblical law?

Alternatively Christians could start tolerating the rest of the world as much as the rest of the world tolerates them. I find it hard to believe that anyone who truly has Christian values could vote for the policies of the current US administration. I'm not saying that they should have voted for Kerry either but the things this administration has done....
 

Andyman_1970

Turbo Monkey
Apr 4, 2003
3,105
5
The Natural State
fluff said:
Perhaps you need to start a Christian Fundamentalist political movement and push for a theocracy, or at the very least a constitution based in biblical law?
Me? I hope you're joking..........or at least I'd hope you know me better than that.

fluff said:
I find it hard to believe that anyone who truly has Christian values could vote for the policies of the current US administration.
As do I.
 

ummbikes

Don't mess with the Santas
Apr 16, 2002
1,794
0
Napavine, Warshington
Andyman_1970 said:
I myself now find myself in a bit of a political quandry, while I am pro life (which also means I oppose the death penality) I am also pro environment, pro caring for the poor, disadvantaged and marginalized............which leaves few canidates that fit that bill.
I hear ya bro, I find myself facing hypocrisy in myself and my borthers and sisters at church all the time. On one hand the church loves the needy, but feels conflict on how to deal with the meth addicted hooker or the gay man fighting AIDS. We would rather hold hands and pray for the surival of marriage then get our hands dirty helping the single mom survive her "sinful' life. I just get discouraged some times, but then I have to remeber the good that is being done and that we all fall short and only saved by the grace of God. I am hopefull that I may gain wisdom in how to be an encouraging voice of reason when my brothers are being foolish and hatefull. As it is now I just want to kick them in the face.
 

Old Man G Funk

Choir Boy
Nov 21, 2005
2,864
0
In a handbasket
ummbikes said:
I hear ya bro, I find myself facing hypocrisy in myself and my borthers and sisters at church all the time. On one hand the church loves the needy, but feels conflict on how to deal with the meth addicted hooker or the gay man fighting AIDS. We would rather hold hands and pray for the surival of marriage then get our hands dirty helping the single mom survive her "sinful' life. I just get discouraged some times, but then I have to remeber the good that is being done and that we all fall short and only saved by the grace of God. I am hopefull that I may gain wisdom in how to be an encouraging voice of reason when my brothers are being foolish and hatefull. As it is now I just want to kick them in the face.
Please be an encouraging voice of reason and tell your brothers to stop electing people like Bush.
 

ummbikes

Don't mess with the Santas
Apr 16, 2002
1,794
0
Napavine, Warshington
Old Man G Funk said:
Please be an encouraging voice of reason and tell your brothers to stop electing people like Bush.
You have no idea how hard I work at telling everone to stop electing people like Bush. So I guess I'm already heeding your sage advice.
 

manimal

Ociffer Tackleberry
Feb 27, 2002
7,212
17
Blindly running into cactus
ummbikes said:
You have no idea how hard I work at telling everone to stop electing people like Bush. So I guess I'm already heeding your sage advice.

i catch a lot of flack at work for questioning bush. alot of the local southern cops are die-hard conservatives that have a hard time seeing outside of their little local box. on the other hand, i work with a lot of ultra-libs known as the "muffia" (lesbian powermongers :D ) so i'm kinda stuck in the middle and alone.
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
24
SF, CA
manimal said:
die-hard conservatives

"muffia" (lesbian powermongers :D )
Are those just the male and female portions of the force, respectively?



heh heh, muffia.
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
14,365
2,473
Pōneke
There has to be a kinda hot latino girl cop with 'father' issues too, right? There's one in every station in TeeVee land.
 

Reactor

Turbo Monkey
Apr 5, 2005
3,976
1
Chandler, AZ, USA
Andyman_1970 said:
Interesting you connect abortion and capital punishment............

I got into a raging debate on the Christian forum I frequent on this very subject. The thread was deleted otherwise I would have posted a link to it so you can see the disgusting comments. Needless to say the overwhelming position on the matter was hypocritical and stomach turning to say the least.

In truth this is one of my biggest beef with most "so called Christians". One minute it's "it's not a choice, it's a child" and the next cutting all the programs to support the child once it's born. Then they're supporting a war killing tens (or even hundreds) of thousands of innocent civilians, capital punishment. If it's immoral to kill a fetus that is a potential life, how can possible be less wrong to kill a child or an adult? If they are going to force some one to carry a child to term against their will, how can they cut the very programs the new mother and child are going to need to survive?

Obviously there are Christians who get it, and other groups that also understand. How have we let our voices be so totally silenced? If the administration really wanted to reduce abortion they would increase programs to support new mothers, and push a real birth control plan, making it easier for mothers to keep their babies, or not get pregnant in the first place.
 

manimal

Ociffer Tackleberry
Feb 27, 2002
7,212
17
Blindly running into cactus
ohio said:
Are those just the male and female portions of the force, respectively?



heh heh, muffia.
yes. not all females are in the muffia...just seems to be the politically active ones, including my captain. we have interesting discussions at times. she's the queen bee of the muffia but pretty cool to chat politics with.
 

ummbikes

Don't mess with the Santas
Apr 16, 2002
1,794
0
Napavine, Warshington
manimal said:
on the other hand, i work with a lot of ultra-libs known as the "muffia" (lesbian powermongers :D ) so i'm kinda stuck in the middle and alone.
Keep up the good fight Manimal, muffia, sheesh dude your killing me. Police Brutality! Nah, just kidding, muffia...:weee: :looney:
 

ummbikes

Don't mess with the Santas
Apr 16, 2002
1,794
0
Napavine, Warshington
Reactor said:
Obviously there are Christians who get it, and other groups that also understand. How have we let our voices be so totally silenced? If the administration really wanted to reduce abortion they would increase programs to support new mothers, and push a real birth control plan, making it easier for mothers to keep their babies, or not get pregnant in the first place.
Right on man, right on! I have, will again, will more times than is needed explain to my 13 year old daughter that she is responsible for her actions (grades, relationships, work obligations, being a good human etc). I'll watch her like a hawk, but I can't be her morality. So she knows about birth control, and when I let her out of the secured compound when she is 30 she will be equiped to make good choices.:)

As for all of society we (Christians, Jews, Muslims, Unnaffilated) have a great obligation to provide safety and security for the most fragile groups in our society.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
Reactor said:
Obviously there are Christians who get it, and other groups that also understand. How have we let our voices be so totally silenced?
Because when you take a principled, well thought out position with nuance like you and ummbikes are putting forward, there will always be someone trying to out-God you. It's the ultimate arguement from authority, and in my opinion the best reason why politics and religion have no business lying in the same bed in a functioning society.
 

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
5,673
2
Feeling the lag
Andyman_1970 said:
Me? I hope you're joking..........or at least I'd hope you know me better than that.
I am only half joking. It seems that tolerance/respect of religion is expected yet most religious people will not tolerate the beliefs of the non-religious. This seems to manifest itself in a desire for a governement that enforces religion-based law on everyone regardless of how otherwise destructive it is.

Something else that stands out is your use of the label 'pro-life'; it implies that anyone who supports abortion in any form is 'anti-life' or 'pro-death'... nice bit of spin.
 

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
5,673
2
Feeling the lag
Silver said:
Because when you take a principled, well thought out position with nuance like you and ummbikes are putting forward, there will always be someone trying to out-God you. It's the ultimate arguement from authority, and in my opinion the best reason why politics and religion have no business lying in the same bed in a functioning society.
And since when have reasonable views sold well?
 

Andyman_1970

Turbo Monkey
Apr 4, 2003
3,105
5
The Natural State
fluff said:
I am only half joking.
I hope your half joking was not specifically directed at me. I mean if I've come off like I want a theocracy, please tell me so I can go fall on my sword............LOL

fluff said:
Something else that stands out is your use of the label 'pro-life'; it implies that anyone who supports abortion in any form is 'anti-life' or 'pro-death'... nice bit of spin.
Actually I use that term as a dig against the supposed "pro lifers" who froth about abortion but then in the next breath thing capital punishment is great...........I have a problem with someone carrying the "label" of pro life and yet advocating capital punishment. So that "label" is bigger than just the abortion issue, at least from my point of view it is. I prefer however to say things like "I'm serious about reducing the number of abortions" in conversations instead of such divisive terms like "pro life".