blatent copying is one thing (cough cough, RF, cough cough, FSA...). blatant copying and claiming to be a "long term pioneer" coming out with something that has been seen on the mountains for over a year is completely different.
BMXers have been doing that for years, the difference is that it is still mounted on the cranks/spider/chainring. The taco setup on an LG-1 was pretty origional in that it was mounted to the boomerang itself. This can be risky though as it is more prone to damaging the frame, but for racers that are willing to keep up on everything it is worth it. As far as I see it, this MRP is a super risky move for them, patents aside.I saw a guy rocking a plastic half bash on a bmx bike in '97. He hacked his kink grindguard (the first lexan chainguard I remember seeing) in half with a hand saw.
Those are all just small modifications and minor improvements. Not a new design. Granted it's hard to come up with a whole new design yourself and most often a whole new design isn't what is needed, some improvements might be all that is needed.polycarbonate bashguard
adjustable sliders from outside (captive fasteners)
narrow chainline capability
one model fits many bikes without modification
composite sliders instead of side plates
co-molded soft durometer idler instead of a roller
A properly setup LG1 should have the idler tucked up out of the way of impacts.Needless to say............the decision to run the guard underneath the bottom pulley to protect it is a good move.
Something an LG/taco setup lacks no?
Probably going to hit it easier since it's lower but definite tags to the pulley get averted.
I agree, this is why it is included in e.thirteen's patent applications.Needless to say............the decision to run the guard underneath the bottom pulley to protect it is a good move.
Something an LG/taco setup lacks no?
Probably going to hit it easier since it's lower but definite tags to the pulley get averted.
I respectfully disagree with your assessment. A Blackspire is a "minor improvement" on the original MRP design. An e.thirteen is a totally different system IMO. I digress though, no need to discuss further.Those are all just small modifications and minor improvements. Not a new design. Granted it's hard to come up with a whole new design yourself and most often a whole new design isn't what is needed, some improvements might be all that is needed.
I don't remember seeing any LG-1 guides coming with a stock taco...blatent copying is one thing (cough cough, RF, cough cough, FSA...). blatant copying and claiming to be a "long term pioneer" coming out with something that has been seen on the mountains for over a year is completely different.
One of the things I'm seeing here is two ways of looking at the same thing. Dave and some of the engineering types see differences between products that a lot of the masses don't necessarily pick up on or care about. To the average consumer all standard chainguides are an outer bash, an inner boomerang of some kind, a top guide piece and a bottom guide piece. Plastic, metal, urethane roller, or deraileur-type cog. To most people these are minor things, but to the designer these are things that they've spent time on refining to make their product better.I respectfully disagree with your assessment. A Blackspire is a "minor improvement" on the original MRP design. An e.thirteen is a totally different system IMO. I digress though, no need to discuss further.
Same with an srs.A properly setup LG1 should have the idler tucked up out of the way of impacts.
dw said:I agree, this is why it is included in e.thirteen's patent applications.
Except that you've never made it.I agree, this is why it is included in e.thirteen's patent applications.
Dave
Did you give it a standing O...I saw a p0rn like this once...
Let me recap what I've written here, just to make sure that I am being totally clear. It seems that there is some confusion on your part and I want to make sure that I am not providing confusing information.Except that you've never made it.
MRP has brought something to market that people have been clamoring for ever since the production of the LG1. If you haven't because you're afraid of damaging frames, that's fine, more power to you. Why not let MRP stick their necks out on the line and see what happens, as opposed to announcing on a public message board that you (in all but wording) intend to sue their asses for patent infringement - patents that aren't even approved yet?
Sorry if I'm off the wall here, but it just seems like the wrong path to embark upon...
Time??? I don't know is it was much time refining..... To most people these are minor things, but to the designer these are things that they've spent time on refining to make their product better.
Yes, they are. It's the German way...Are they really using that much more expensive materials than in a toyota camrey?
Iphone $pricelesssupply and demand. Doesn't matter how much is costs to make it, only what consumers are willing to pay for it. Do you really think it costs that much to manufacture an iPhone? What about a BMW 7 Series? Are they really using that much more expensive materials than in a toyota camrey?
Not so much love, but the "BMW way" of building things will always make them cost more...not to say it's a better wayFigures there'd be at least one beemer lover on here to give me a hard time.
thats one of the most ignorant statements ive read on this forumTime??? I don't know is it was much time refining....
But to charge more than 100usd for a piece of alloy, two injected plastics, a roller and a couple of bolts it must be a lot of time spend by this Super ego'ed engineers, beacuase i don't see to much material or productions costs to charge that amounts
The beauty of it is, no one is forcing you or anyone else to buy any product. If you don't like the price, you don't have to buy it.Time??? I don't know is it was much time refining....
But to charge more than 100usd for a piece of alloy, two injected plastics, a roller and a couple of bolts it must be a lot of time spend by this Super ego'ed engineers, beacuase i don't see to much material or productions costs to charge that amounts
explain why? or is the true that hurts you.thats one of the most ignorant statements ive read on this forum
It couldnt be done or atleast done right, the moulds for injection + plastic composite + bearings, machined metal plate etc... Try 1k -2k minimum. Heck goggle moulds outa china are around 5k or waived with a 2000 minimum first order.I'd like to see you design a chainguide that works half as well and costs as much as an e13.
Time??? I don't know is it was much time refining....
But to charge more than 100usd for a piece of alloy, two injected plastics, a roller and a couple of bolts it must be a lot of time spend by this Super ego'ed engineers, beacuase i don't see to much material or productions costs to charge that amounts
Because they didnt hit the market first on a consumers level with a product that has a calling for it.yea, why would you want to buy a product of a company that dumps countless amounts of money back into the very sport we all love. Who really cares about sponsoring race series, AM and pro riders, and providing tech support at events anyways.
yeahI'd like to see you design a chainguide that works half as well and costs as much as an e13.
ya giving money to other riders so they can ride more than me really helps me and other consumers out.......Who really cares about sponsoring race series, AM and pro riders, and providing tech support at events anyways.
As far as I know, e13 doesn't pay their riders to ride their product.ya giving money to other riders so they can ride more than me really helps me and other consumers out.......
(yes i know product testing and what not but lets not kid ourselves here about why pro riders get money)
Absolutely correct. e.13 does not pay a single rider to ride their product, yet big name riders still come asking for it by name...As far as I know, e13 doesn't pay their riders to ride their product.
Warning, long rant ahead:But to charge more than 100usd for a piece of alloy, two injected plastics, a roller and a couple of bolts it must be a lot of time spend by this Super ego'ed engineers, beacuase i don't see to much material or productions costs to charge that amounts
You forgot marketing BV. That alone can cost as much as everything else. I am glad you stepped in and set the record straight.Warning, long rant ahead:
Wow . The ignorance just drips from this statement. Spoken like someone who's never even been near the manufacturing world.
I can think of about a half dozen pieces of manufacturing equipment alone that would be required to produce the chainguide, and I'm sure I'm leaving some out because I don't actually know their manufacturing process (gosh, see that, I'm not making ignorant assumptions). You need to either own those machines, or contract someone out who does own them - either way, it's expensive, as they don't rent out CNC and injection molding machines and their operating staff for a Burger King salary. Then you need to buy the raw materials. I don't know what the cost is to develop and produce a proprietary lexan composite but I'll tell you this: it ain't cheap. Whoever is making it is not making it 10 metric tons at a time, so economies of scale aren't as good as they could be.
To top all that off, you need an engineer to spend a lot of hours in front of a computer screen designing, testing, designing and testing. Figuring out what's going to fit with various frame designs. Figuring out what's going to happen when Rider A smacks his boomerang on a log. Figuring out exactly what's going to happen to the lexan while it gets beat up.
All this, and they haven't even made one single damn chainguide yet.
After they make a few, it's testing time. Test, feedback, design changes, more production. More tests. The cycle repeats, several times. All the while, they aren't selling anything. Most small business owners eat a lot of Ramen for a while unless they have a nest egg. When they finally do get to selling them, there are packaging costs, shipping costs from the factory, stocking costs, time spent managing inventory, time spent taking orders, time spent shipping to customers. This is, of course, assuming that everything goes perfectly. That never happens, so they're paying for hiccups, delays in production, problems with a batch of plastics, problems with the tolerances on a machine, problems problems problems. They're also paying to maintain a website, apply for patents, develop future products and keep staff on hand to help people like you out when you can't figure out how to install it on your new bike.
This doesn't just go for E.13, it goes for everyone, and I think it's utterly pathetic the number of people who look at something and say, "I could make that for way less money." You have no friggin' clue how much money it takes to run a manufacturing line. I'm sure E.13 is making a healthy profit off the chainguides, but comments about it being driven by super ego engineers are just lame.
Actually, I deliberately left marketing out because E.13 doesn't advertise. But you're right, for most companies the cost to market is very large.You forgot marketing BV. That alone can cost as much as everything else. I am glad you stepped in and set the record straight.
e.13 does both print ads and some on-line ad starring a guy named Tobler...Actually, I deliberately left marketing out because E.13 doesn't advertise. But you're right, for most companies the cost to market is very large.
Warning, long rant ahead:
Wow . The ignorance just drips from this statement. Spoken like someone who's never even been near the manufacturing world.
I can think of about a half dozen pieces of manufacturing equipment alone that would be required to produce the chainguide, and I'm sure I'm leaving some out because I don't actually know their manufacturing process (gosh, see that, I'm not making ignorant assumptions). You need to either own those machines, or contract someone out who does own them - either way, it's expensive, as they don't rent out CNC and injection molding machines and their operating staff for a Burger King salary. Then you need to buy the raw materials. I don't know what the cost is to develop and produce a proprietary lexan composite but I'll tell you this: it ain't cheap. Whoever is making it is not making it 10 metric tons at a time, so economies of scale aren't as good as they could be.
To top all that off, you need an engineer to spend a lot of hours in front of a computer screen designing, testing, designing and testing. Figuring out what's going to fit with various frame designs. Figuring out what's going to happen when Rider A smacks his boomerang on a log. Figuring out exactly what's going to happen to the lexan while it gets beat up.
All this, and they haven't even made one single damn chainguide yet.
After they make a few, it's testing time. Test, feedback, design changes, more production. More tests. The cycle repeats, several times. All the while, they aren't selling anything. Most small business owners eat a lot of Ramen for a while unless they have a nest egg. When they finally do get to selling them, there are packaging costs, shipping costs from the factory, stocking costs, time spent managing inventory, time spent taking orders, time spent shipping to customers. This is, of course, assuming that everything goes perfectly. That never happens, so they're paying for hiccups, delays in production, problems with a batch of plastics, problems with the tolerances on a machine, problems problems problems. They're also paying to maintain a website, apply for patents, develop future products and keep staff on hand to help people like you out when you can't figure out how to install it on your new bike.
This doesn't just go for E.13, it goes for everyone, and I think it's utterly pathetic the number of people who look at something and say, "I could make that for way less money." You have no friggin' clue how much money it takes to run a manufacturing line. I'm sure E.13 is making a healthy profit off the chainguides, but comments about it being driven by super ego engineers are just lame.
It was a general statement aimed at all mfg-athlete sponsorship relationships. I'm sure you understood my point though.As far as I know, e13 doesn't pay their riders to ride their product.
Ahh, sorry, I'm out of the loop. I do remember seeing a few E.13 ads now that you mention it. I haven't thumbed through many biking magazines lately. Point taken. So, there's another cost.e.13 does both print ads and some on-line ad starring a guy named Tobler...