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XX1 11spd shifter on 10spd Shimano mtn derailleur

Discussion in 'Downhill & Freeride' started by Udi, Aug 12, 2015.

  1. Udi

    Udi RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”

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    #1 -   Aug 12, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2015
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  2. Sandwich

    Sandwich just shake your rump
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    wait what? I don't know if that's possible...but why? I mean, you can get a shimano shifter for like $40?

    The original shimano 9 speed shifter to 10 speed derialleur called for a shorter lever arm on the derailluer. http://bb.nsmb.com/showthread.php?t=153122

    The SRAM shifter on 10 speed derailleur needed a spacer.

    So, I think in this case you might need a small spacer, but where are you getting 0.8? The derailleur ratios are 1.1(SRAM) and 1.2(Shimano) so I would guess that you would need to measure the lever arm of the SRAM derailleur and the shimano and increase the difference by 1.2 in order to get the same activation...does that make sense? [1.2(sram-shimano)+shimano=sram lever]

    I think the easiest way to do this would be to take a derailleur and try it, then try spacing it out until you get the right activation, since the SRAM pulls more than the shimano, you'll need to bring the ratio down on the derailleur to get the same movement. Too short of an arm and you're pulling even more cable (increasing the ratio).
     
  3. Da Peach

    Da Peach Outwitted by a rodent

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    I think you've asked the right people
     
  4. big-ted

    big-ted Danced with A, attacked by C, fired by D.

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    I'm going to guess that it would work. The shifter pulls 2% more cable than the derailleur wants, vs. ~18% in the case for which my adapters were designed. Seeing how close the 9 speed setup is I'd think the 11 speed shifter would be close enough. Of course, you'd have an unused 'click' on the shifter you'd have to lock out using the derailleur limit screws, but that's easy enough.

    But yeah. Why would you do this? Shimano shifters are way cheaper and have the multi-release. Going 11 speed gradually?
     
  5. Udi

    Udi RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”

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    Cheers, can you confirm whether I need a spacer or a removal of material though? I'm sure it would work with no modification whatsoever, but it'd be so easy to do either of those things.

    As for why - this one's open to debate, but every time I ride someone else's XX1 or new XO1 shifter lately I seem to be wowed by how good it feels. The action seems to be crisper than my 10spd Shimano without being quite as firm to actuate as the 9spd XO, and the 9spd XO (that I've got on my trailbike) seems to have more positive and clearly defined shifts than my DH bike which I wouldn't mind replicating. Finally all the SRAM stuff seems to have little/no dead-zone before actuation compared to the Shimano which has a lot of free movement before anything happens.

    I like the dual release and have run it forever so I might miss that, but I'm planning to increase the ratio gaps in my cassette at the same time (7 cog conversion) so it should ease the transition.

    Current DH setup is all 10spd XTR/Saint/Dura-Ace: m98x mech (custom shortcage) / m820 shifter / cs7900 cassette / cn7901 chain. I picked the Saint shifter over the XTR on purpose since it's better built and shifts better in my experience. But the XX1/XO1 shifter still seems to feel better than my favourite Shimano...

    Do the monkeys have a different opinion?
     
  6. Flo33

    Flo33 Monkey

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    Same experience here. I also prefer the feel of the SRAM shiftes over the Shimano ones, but not only the new 11 breed but also the last iteration of X0 10 speed. I was thinking about a hack of an XTR rear mech to work with an X0 shifter. So thumbs up for the project.
     
  7. HAB

    HAB Chelsea from Seattle

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    You'd need to add a spacer. Without having a derailleur in hand to measure, I can't tell you exactly how thick.

    A Sram cassette pulls 3.5mm of cable. A dynasis derailleur has a 1.2 actuation ratio. a 10s cassete has 3.95mm pitch.

    3.5*1.2=4.2mm, so the derailleur would move a little bit too far with a standard setup. Making the lever that the cable acts on longer would reduce the amount the derailleur moves per amount of cable movement.
     
  8. Sandwich

    Sandwich just shake your rump
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    I've always been a bigger fan of shimano's lighter action than sram's more positive clicks, but I'm skipping a generation. The new bike will have 11speed, and my last shimano XT had 9 speeds. The DH bike has 10, but it's a deore. I do not like the feel of the SRAM x9 on the Enduro...it feels plasticky and cheap....

    ...but I think this is like breasts or butts, everybody has their preference.
     
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  9. big-ted

    big-ted Danced with A, attacked by C, fired by D.

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    ^ Correct. But that spacer would be extremely thin. Less than a mm. I honestly suspect it's within the tolerance of the cable thickness itself.
     
  10. HAB

    HAB Chelsea from Seattle

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    Yeah, it's not going to be much. there's less than 1/3 as much discrepancy between the 11s Sram shifter/10s Shimano derailleur setup as there is with the 9s Sram shifter/ 10s Shimano derailleur setup you made the spacers for, and those were what, ~4mm thick?
     
  11. rpet

    rpet Turbo Monkey

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    Ugh you reminded me about 9speed SRAM.
    That shiz nearly made me resort to squeezing a tennis ball all day at work. nearly.
     
  12. StiHacka

    StiHacka Compensating for something

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    i͓̽t͓̽ i͓̽s͓̽ fu͓̽l͓̽l͓̽ o͓̽f s͓̽t͓̽a͓̽r͓̽s͓̽
    Speaking about 10sp drivetrains, I prefer the feeling of 10sp Saint shifter and the design of 10sp SRAM RDs. What IMO makes the SRAM RDs nicer to use is 1) the cage lock making wheel removal easy 2) offset pivot that makes shifting on 11-42T cassettes much nicer (although the RADr cage alleviates this problem with Shimano RDs).

    But, that combo won't work so this post is totally useless.
     
  13. slimshady

    slimshady Turbo Monkey

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    My two cents: I have been on SRAM 9 and 10 speed setups for almost 8 years. The Rallón I just bought has a Shimano SLX drivetrain, and to me at least it feels horrible. I'm currently urged with other financial projects, but the minute I put my hands on some cash I could spend I'm setting those SLX shifters on fire.
     
  14. wood booger

    wood booger Monkey

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    Part of the "good sensations" you get from SRAM 11 spd stuff is likely due to the pulley the cable runs on in the rear der.
    It is soooo much better than having the cable drag on the der body like 10 spd SRAM, and it does not eat cables like 10 spd SRAM did. Much more clutch friendly design.

    As far as how to make it work, I think you'll need to do some trial and erroring.
    It's not just about how much cable is pulled, but how far the der moves per amount of cable being pulled.
     
  15. HAB

    HAB Chelsea from Seattle

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    I haven't ridden SLX 10, but the XTR and Saint 10 speed shifters I have feel waaaaaay better than Sram 9, in my ever so humble opinion.
     
  16. slimshady

    slimshady Turbo Monkey

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    I'll stop the OT here. I get your point, but using just your thumb feels tons better on SRAM to me, due to the angled action of the upshift paddle. Plus they don't have that dead feeling at the beginning of the action. On the other hand, the XTs in a friend's bike could be pushed just by burping on them. That's something you have to trade off when switching to SRAM. It's almost like comparing a Lada Niva to a Mitsubishi Lancer.
     
  17. Udi

    Udi RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”

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    Cheers, yeah I'm aware it'll be a super thin shim (my guess was 0.8mm with some simple division of big-ted's shim vs. cable pull, some fancy trig would get you a more accurate number but I think that'll be close enough), I'll probably just rig something up so the cable can't sit as deep into its groove when clamped, and a grooved shim to sit on top so it can sit ~halfway out of the original groove. I'll snap a pic when it's done if it works in case anyone else wants to do it in the future.

    As for the Sram/Shimano, It looks like a few of you know what I'm on about. I've always run Shimano drivetrains in the past but I've noticed definite benefits on the other side of the fence for possibly a small drop in impact resistance and the loss of double-release. Probably enough that I'm keen to give it a go.

    For reference I'm only comparing the topend stuff here - XTR/Saint vs. XX1/XO1. The X9 shifter in particular is noticeably flimsy in comparison and doesn't represent the difference I'm talking about.

    The cool thing I noticed with XX1/XO1 is that it keeps the zero free-stroke and a reasonable amount of the crispness from the older Sram gear, while bringing in a lighter action than previous generations.

    @wood booger
    It's mounting to 10spd Shimano on the other end (not Sram), therefore no cable loop and no need for the wheel of shame. :P
     
  18. RayB

    RayB Monkey

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    Because Udi, that's why.
     
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  19. johnbryanpeters

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    A giant effort to construct something that does not quite work.
     
  20. Udi

    Udi RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”

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    New XX1 shifter en route. This is happening.

    It would only "not quite work" if nothing was constructed. Also, making an simple shim is hardly a giant effort.
     
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  21. Sandwich

    Sandwich just shake your rump
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    "a shim" like you can only use one. that's not how we role here, buddy.
     
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  22. dan-o

    dan-o Turbo Monkey

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    Curious to see how this turns out.
    I've always attributed the sram shifting feel to the derailleur rather than the shifter but have never tried to mix 'n match.
     
  23. Udi

    Udi RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”

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    Yeah the shifting feel and quality is almost always mostly attributable to the shifter (and cables / pull ratio), a good test is an X7 or X9 shifter on XO derailleur compared to an XO shifter on the lower end derailleurs.

    As long as the derailleur has a stiff spring and is straight / free of play it doesn't make much difference to performance, just weight and often longevity. The shifter is the brain of the operation and the higher-end stuff from both brands is markedly better.
     
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  24. tacubaya

    tacubaya Monkey

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    Only Udi finds components other than suspension that need moar shimz
     
  25. Udi

    Udi RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”

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    It worked well, ran it all weekend in the mud.
    Took some pics for no reason, they show nothing useful:







     
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  26. Muddy

    Muddy Turbo Monkey

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    Udi - is that the Saint cage on this XTR? I don't do the big gear out back (not really -- 36 w/ 36 in front) and I know I could tighten up back there.
     
  27. HAB

    HAB Chelsea from Seattle

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    Yeah. It's an easy swap.

    My experience has been that the short cage derailleur can only barely cover an 11-36 cassette. Depending on the chainring size, chainstay length, and amount of chain growth, it may not work very well. I've tried that setup on a few bikes, and it's worked on most of them, but a couple (most notably my Megatrail) had a combination that just didn't give decent chain tension in the high gears if the chain was long enough to handle the lowest gear.
     
  28. Nick

    Nick My name is Nick

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    Went not just run the Saint short cage rear then? Is there an advantage to the xtr + short cage mod?
     
  29. HAB

    HAB Chelsea from Seattle

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    XTR is a lot lighter.
     
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  30. johnbryanpeters

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    And burns dentist dollars more rapidly.
     
  31. iRider

    iRider Turbo Monkey

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    So Udi is a dentist? :eek: