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Your papers, please!

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
Your papers, please
The Washington Times | February 23, 2004 | House Editorial

Next week the U.S. Supreme Court will hear a case to decide whether or not all Americans must have identification on them at all times. The case has been brought by a cowboy in Nevada who was asked to show ID while he was leaning against his pickup truck on the side of the road near his ranch. The police officer did not offer any specific reason why he demanded proof of identity. Having committed no crime, Dudley Hiibel, the cowboy, refused -- and was arrested. He was later convicted for "Delaying a Peace Officer." In America, still a free country, citizens should not be required to provide identification papers at any whim of the authorities.

In the case at hand, Mr. Hiibel gave the arresting officer a chance to justify his request. But when asked why he demanded identification, the sheriff's deputy said only, "Because I'm investigating." When asked what he was investigating, the policeman responded with a wisecrack: "I'm investigating an investigation." The argument before the U.S. Supreme Court is whether requiring identification at any time is a violation of the Fourth Amendment's protection against unreasonable searches and seizures or an invasion of privacy by the government.

In a 4-3 decision, the Nevada Supreme Court ruled against Mr. Hiibel, stating that the Nevada statute requiring identification during a police investigation "strikes a balance between constitutional protections of privacy and the need to protect police officers and the public." The argument is that police cannot rule out whether or not a stranger is a suspect in a crime until he is identified. In the dissent, Justice Deborah Agosti argues that merely knowing an individual's identity does not enhance safety. Regarding the Fourth Amendment, she explains, "Anonymity is encompassed within the expectation of privacy, a civil right." The Fifth Amendment also guarantees the right to remain silent, which can be construed as the right to guard one's identity.

The cowboy-ID case is timely because of the momentum in the federal government to mandate various kinds of national identification cards. Even some conservatives, such as Arizona Sen. Jon Kyl, support the idea of so-called Social Security cards with biometric identifiers such as retina scans and electronic fingerprints. The Nevada high court's ruling notes that "the right to wander freely and anonymously, if we so choose, is a fundamental right of privacy in a democratic society." The openness of the prairie symbolizes this freedom. It would be a shame if cowboys were required to carry a driver's license to ride a horse while roaming the open range.
 

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
5,673
2
Feeling the lag
Originally posted by valve bouncer
I agree with you wholeheartedly N8, your opinion is right on the money there as usual:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Nah VB, can't agree less, N8 is way off the mark here.


IMO they should be charging the cop with wasting police time and the time and cost of the trial/arrest etc. Hopfully it'll teach him not to be a smartass again. Knob.

(PS. Sorry to introduce opinions into this otherwise erudite thread..)
 

DRB

unemployed bum
Oct 24, 2002
15,242
0
Watchin' you. Writing it all down.
First I don't think that police should be able to ask you for ID for no particular reason. If they are in fact investigating a crime or an incident then they should tell you specifically what they are doing not just "Investigating".

Second, being a d!ck to police is never going to be helpful and isn't going to get a situation resolved.

However, in this situation the only mistake the Cop made was not being more clear about what he was doing. It was obvious that someone had called in about a fight between the father and daughter and not that he just happened upon them along the side of the road. He said it once but then didn't follow it up. Maybe he could have moved on from the ID question and come back to it but that's only a small criticism.

The whole daughter part of the incident was crazy and would have done cops proud. Again proof that you shouldn't try to fight the police.
 

LordOpie

MOTHER HEN
Oct 17, 2002
21,022
3
Denver
The police officer did not offer any specific reason why he demanded proof of identity.
This is an out right lie. The Wash.Times should be ashamed of themselves.

The first thing the cop did was say that he was investigating a fight between that guy and another person. Yes, the cop should've clearly explained what was going on, but the cowboy was aggressive from the get go... that'd throw me off my game too if I was the cop.

Thank G-d for video cameras.

Besides, if it was his truck and it's parked along a public road. He can't drive without a license, so that's a good reason to ask for it.

I personally have no problems with the way the cops handled it from watching the video and yet, I did from the article. Misrepresentation by a news source really gets me. I do wonder why the video got cut off.

Side note: And that cowboy needs a beating just for annoying me with that whole "big man" crap! :devil:
 

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
5,673
2
Feeling the lag
Originally posted by LordOpie
This is an out right lie.

Side note: And that cowboy needs a beating just for annoying me with that whole "big man" crap! :devil:
D'you want fries with that order of truth?

It does play differently between report and video indeed. Still think the cop's 'I'm investigating an investigation' is a bit dumb and he definitely could have handled it much better. Cowboy was dumb too. Hell, kill 'em both, cleanse the gene pool!!

(Oh and I think it was the girl who did the "big man" crap.)


Hmm, being radically right-wing feels good...
 

LordOpie

MOTHER HEN
Oct 17, 2002
21,022
3
Denver
Originally posted by fluff
'I'm investigating an investigation'
he didn't say that, he said, "I'm investigating --" and was cut off by the cowboy. The cop probably was going to finish that off with something about investigating a domestic argument.

Originally posted by fluff
Hell, kill 'em both, cleanse the gene pool!!
I apparently like disagreeing with you :D cuz I really think the cop, at worst, made minor errors in explaining himself.
 

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
5,673
2
Feeling the lag
Originally posted by LordOpie

I apparently like disagreeing with you :D.
Hah, you only like Bush 2% more than I do. If I could be bothered to form a more considered opinion on this, who knows how close we'd get.

(NB, I had no sound, just video and transcript.)

Actually I think what I don't like about his approach is the unnecessary use of the power of arrest. It took less than five minutes to cuff the cowboy and stick him in the van and wrestle the woman to the ground and cuff her.

Given that law enforcement officers will deal with some pretty dumb people who may not be particularly well disposed to them they need quite a bit of patience (IMO). They are, after all, supposed to serve the public.

It's not the like the guy was violent, or threatening (as far as I could tell) simply uncooperative and a little belligerent. I would have though the cops see that all the time.
 

zod

Turbo Monkey
Jul 17, 2003
1,376
0
G-County, NC
Originally posted by N8
Even some conservatives, such as Arizona Sen. Jon Kyl, support the idea of so-called Social Security cards with biometric identifiers such as retina scans and electronic fingerprints.
Such ID would not be accepted by a large portion of the Christian community who would view it as an "end of days" event...
It could get ugly real quick if biometric identification was mandated.
 

DRB

unemployed bum
Oct 24, 2002
15,242
0
Watchin' you. Writing it all down.
Originally posted by zod
Such ID would not be accepted by a large portion of the Christian community who would view it as an "end of days" event...
It could get ugly real quick if biometric identification was mandated.
A "?large?" portion of the Christian community views everything as an "end of days" event......
 

LordOpie

MOTHER HEN
Oct 17, 2002
21,022
3
Denver
Thank G-d Dean isn't gonna get elected, that guy is crazy... like his idea that you have to have a national ID to log into the internet and they'll track you.
 

zod

Turbo Monkey
Jul 17, 2003
1,376
0
G-County, NC
Originally posted by DRB
A "?large?" portion of the Christian community views everything as an "end of days" event......
Very true, but what I am saying is that they would refuse to accept biometric id
 

zod

Turbo Monkey
Jul 17, 2003
1,376
0
G-County, NC
Originally posted by LordOpie
Thank G-d Dean isn't gonna get elected, that guy is crazy... like his idea that you have to have a national ID to log into the internet and they'll track you.
Whoa, I had not heard that.......that screams Police State :eek:
 

RhinofromWA

Brevity R Us
Aug 16, 2001
4,622
0
Lynnwood, WA
Originally posted by N8
Your papers, please
"the right to wander freely and anonymously, if we so choose, is a fundamental right of privacy in a democratic society." The openness of the prairie symbolizes this freedom. It would be a shame if cowboys were required to carry a driver's license to ride a horse while roaming the open range.


:confused:

Err... I ride my MTB with ID. (incase I smack my head and can't communicate :D)

I don't when I am racing.....

How does carrying an ID card abuse a cowboys fundamental right to privacy?

Wierd.

The cowboy wasn't all dumb....he assumed he was in trouble for something....possible abuse? So he was being a dick.

oh Fluff, I read the manuscripts (I didn't have sound either) after watching the video and it was the father who was crying out "big man"....not arguing just trying to help clear that part up.
 

DRB

unemployed bum
Oct 24, 2002
15,242
0
Watchin' you. Writing it all down.
Why is a biometric social security card such a bad idea?

With ID fraud becoming so rampant these days, such an idea might not be a bad idea. Want to cash your SS check then you got to have your biometric card (thumbprint, retna scan...) to do so.

Lord knows I would love to have a biometric passport or card that allowed me to simply use that to get back into country by running it thru a machine or whatever as opposed to having to answer the inane questions of those IDIOT INS agents that I never fail to end up in front of returning to the US.
 

LordOpie

MOTHER HEN
Oct 17, 2002
21,022
3
Denver
Originally posted by DRB
Why is a biometric social security card such a bad idea?

With ID fraud becoming so rampant these days, such an idea might not be a bad idea. Want to cash your SS check then you got to have your biometric card (thumbprint, retna scan...) to do so.

Lord knows I would love to have a biometric passport ...
You are correct, but Dean and those like him also want scanner check points distributed throughout society so the Feds can keep an eye on us.

http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1107_2-5147158.html
 

Jr_Bullit

I'm sooo teenie weenie!!!
Sep 8, 2001
2,028
0
North of Oz
After paying my taxes this year...I'm sorely tempted to simply tear up my "identifiers", and work under the table for cash only and travel around on my bicycle as a homeless nomad.

:D :thumb:

I mean seriously...what're they gonna do if I can't prove I exist? hehehe
 

Jr_Bullit

I'm sooo teenie weenie!!!
Sep 8, 2001
2,028
0
North of Oz
I have ID...it's a permanent part of my genetic structure...it would things like my eyes and my fingerprints :D Maybe we just need a smarter system for figuring out who I am if its that important. :D:D
 

DHRacer

The Rev
Oct 8, 2001
352
0
Originally posted by LordOpie
This is an out right lie. The Wash.Times should be ashamed of themselves.

The first thing the cop did was say that he was investigating a fight between that guy and another person....

Thank G-d for video cameras.

Besides, if it was his truck and it's parked along a public road. He can't drive without a license, so that's a good reason to ask for it.

I personally have no problems with the way the cops handled it from watching the video and yet, I did from the article. Misrepresentation by a news source really gets me. I do wonder why the video got cut off.


I agree.
 

BuddhaRoadkill

I suck at Tool
Feb 15, 2004
988
0
Chintimini Bog
... and the Supreme Court agrees with Nevada.
Better not forget your wallet when leaving the house ;)
http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/06/21/scotus.police.id/

In a dissent, Justice John Paul Stevens said that because Hiibel was the target of a police investigation, he "acted well within his rights when he opted to stand mute."

Stevens said, "There is no reason why the subject of police interrogation based on mere suspicion, rather than probable cause, should have any lesser protection."
I would have to agree.
 

Slugman

Frankenbike
Apr 29, 2004
4,024
0
Miami, FL
DRB said:
Why is a biometric social security card such a bad idea?
Becasue it treats everyone as though they have done something wrong and that gets ride of the whole 'innocent until proven guilty' assumption. It's basically also an attempt to intimidate - we have your retina scan on file...

DRB said:
With ID fraud becoming so rampant these days, such an idea might not be a bad idea. Want to cash your SS check then you got to have your biometric card (thumbprint, retna scan...) to do so.
That is a great options... when I choose it to be an option. But then again the whole idea of credit cards were that they were completley safe, so people used them instead of cash. How long do you really thikn it will be until someone figures out how to crack the system...

DRB said:
Lord knows I would love to have a biometric passport or card that allowed me to simply use that to get back into country by running it thru a machine or whatever as opposed to having to answer the inane questions of those IDIOT INS agents that I never fail to end up in front of returning to the US.
But htose ae teh same idiots that would be in charge of your data... which scares me!
 

DRB

unemployed bum
Oct 24, 2002
15,242
0
Watchin' you. Writing it all down.
Slugman said:
Becasue it treats everyone as though they have done something wrong and that gets ride of the whole 'innocent until proven guilty' assumption. It's basically also an attempt to intimidate - we have your retina scan on file...
No it doesn't say you have done anything wrong... just that the card that you are using is yours. Its no different than comparing the signature on the reciept to the signature on the back of the credit card EXCEPT its more accurate. Additonally banks have been doing that for awhile now collecting a thumb print when you cash a check at a bank that you don't have an account.

Intimidation.... they only do that with the black helicopters that are observing you. And the under the skin transponders the red cross and doctor's offices put into you to track you.

Slugman said:
But htose ae teh same idiots that would be in charge of your data... which scares me!
What data that they don't already have? They gave me the passport and know what's on it. They can scan it now and it tells them who I am and where I have been. The government has had my fingerprints and DNA for sometime now. I'm not seeing the big gigantic danger here to my personal liberty or privacy.
 

TheInedibleHulk

Turbo Monkey
May 26, 2004
1,886
0
Colorado
Hulks guide to not getting arrested:

1. When conversing with police officer, dont say "take me to jail, I dont care" 15 times.

2. If you are confronted by an officer and dont have an ID, which I have been several times, just tell them who you are and why you dont have your ID and it shouldnt be an issue.

3. Dont act like that guy.

4. Insulting the police officers after they restrain your dumb white trash screaming daughter wont help your case.

This is not an issue of fourth amendment rights, the only real reason that cop arrested that retarded old cowboy is becasue he was acting like a moron, being disrespectful, and completely uncooperative. It certainly seemed to be that the ID thing was just an excuse to teach the old douche bag a lesson. Hell I dont even like cops and Im all on the cops side on this one... but maybe I just dont like cowboys.
 

RhinofromWA

Brevity R Us
Aug 16, 2001
4,622
0
Lynnwood, WA
Silver said:
Being disrespecful isn't against the law, unless you happen to be standing in front of a judge, as far as I know.
If I remember this right the cop was(atleast two? 3rd showing up later?) alone and had two people he had to deal with.

If the father was not cooperating as he was simply asking him to identify himself. Apperantly they had been called out the night before? :confused: The guy said he would rather go to jail for impeeding an investigation than give him ID. (why? I will never know)

The Cowboy made arrest the ONLY option.

He wasn't arrested for being disrespectful...he was arrested for impeeding an investigation, right? The Cowboy kept saying he was parked off theroad and he did nothing.....yet still thought cooperating was worse than being arrested. :confused: *shakes head*

Girl freaks out when the dad is being putinto the police car....and when she busts out (pushing the door open rfom teh cop trying to keep her inthe truck and safe) they restrain her until she calms down.

How did the cops treat this biligerant Cowboy poorly...seems like he made his own bed to lay in.

Rhino
 

Cooter Brown

Turbo Monkey
May 30, 2002
1,453
0
Snow Hall, tweakin on math
golgiaparatus said:
If there is some kind of federal law that pops up all of a sudden that says you must have ID on you at all time I swear I move to another country.

- JB

werd

it's all just heading for under skin mounted chips, complete with GPS tracking systems so not only willl they know who you are, but where you are as well :angry:

f#ck em and feed em fish heads
 

golgiaparatus

Out of my element
Aug 30, 2002
7,340
41
Deep in the Jungles of Oklahoma
DRB said:
The actual video of the incident is at http://papersplease.org/hiibel/

You should definately watch it before you make any judgement of the incident.
I dont understand why the officer needed any ID, I dont understand why the cowboy was being defensive. I dont understand why the chick thought she could run out of the car like a crazy bi+ch and not get tackled.

If I were the judge of this case I'd have thrown it out. As someone said above, what a waste of time and tax payer money.
 

golgiaparatus

Out of my element
Aug 30, 2002
7,340
41
Deep in the Jungles of Oklahoma
Cooter Brown said:
werd

it's all just heading for under skin mounted chips, complete with GPS tracking systems so not only willl they know who you are, but where you are as well :angry:

f#ck em and feed em fish heads
I want a chip just so I can dig it out with a knife and have a big gnarly chip removal scar
 

Cooter Brown

Turbo Monkey
May 30, 2002
1,453
0
Snow Hall, tweakin on math
golgiaparatus said:
I want a chip just so I can dig it out with a knife and have a big gnarly chip removal scar

i would just tell the f#cking cops that it was implanted in my ass cheek and could only be activated by lips touching the skin on top of it. :eviltongu :eviltongu
 

RhinofromWA

Brevity R Us
Aug 16, 2001
4,622
0
Lynnwood, WA
golgiaparatus said:
If there is some kind of federal law that pops up all of a sudden that says you must have ID on you at all time I swear I move to another country.

- JB
F' yah! Srew'm if I have to cary my ID around on me! Freaking nazi's! They can take my size 10 Nike up there ID law's hind quarters! It doesn't violate my constitutional rights but damn it I don't have to carry ID if I do not want to! Freak'n Nazi's!

Enter Mulder and the X-Files micro-chip freak out session :D

Never mind that someone reported that he had hit his daughter (turns out she hit him) in an argument and the cop was trying to get the story. The cowboy wouldn't even let the cop know who he was. After the rancher was restrained they could try and get the story from the girl.

What a mess....but do you think "IF" the rancher had provided some information of who he was this wouldn't have escalated? I think so. The cop couldn't make it past MR rancher dude until he atleast knew who he was.

He wasn't arrested for not having ID he was arrested for delaying an investigation but being uncooperative.

Cue X-Files (I love that show) music!

Rhino
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
Yeah, but why was he arrested for delaying the investigation?

Didn't provide ID, right?

(For the record, I did watch the video a couple of months ago, and thought that both parties were acted like asses. The cowboy especially.)
 

RhinofromWA

Brevity R Us
Aug 16, 2001
4,622
0
Lynnwood, WA
golgiaparatus said:
I dont understand why the officer needed any ID, I dont understand why the cowboy was being defensive. I dont understand why the chick thought she could run out of the car like a crazy bi+ch and not get tackled.

If I were the judge of this case I'd have thrown it out. As someone said above, what a waste of time and tax payer money.
Yep.

It is a shame....the cop simply wanted to know who he was. The Rancher just couldn't give a rip. How he thought refusing to give any info to the cop even with no ID on him was a better choice amazes me. I still don't make the connection to the 4th and 5th ammendment....kinda stretching a little to far if you ask me. The cop wasn't taking his info from him....he was finding out who the heck he was. The girl was funny.....yeah lots of cops but lets bust out and scream like a banshee! She is young, she freaked.

If the judge had thrown it out MR Rancher would have more to bitch about....but with a try in court he got a decision (against him but a decision regardless)