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It's True! Big Bear Closed To Dh/fr

Gimper4JC

Chimp
Jan 18, 2004
71
0
San Diego, CA
Gravity racing (and riding) to be banned at Big Bear

By Jason Sumner
VeloNews associate editor

This report filed December 7, 2004

One of America's most renowned mountain-bike racing venues has pulled the plug on downhilling. Snow Summit Resort in Big Bear Lake, California will no longer allow downhill bikes on its chairlifts during the summer riding season, and this means no more downhill racing either.

According to Dick Kun, president of the resort, the change in policy stemmed primarily from the amount of liability exposure his resort was facing by allowing downhillers to ride on the mountain two hours drive from Los Angeles.

"Even with the insurance that NORBA and Team Big Bear carried it wasn't enough to protect us," explained Kun, referring to USA Cycling's national cycling body and the outfit that has run the Big Bear NCS races and many others during the last 15 years. "We just don't get enough in return to defray the exposure."

Kun added that, "there's one on-going claim stemming from an accident that happened a couple years ago that put things over the top." He would not elaborate on the case.

Two years ago, at the NORBA national series event, a female Japanese downhiller died from injuries sustained during a practice run.

Kun also pointed to the number of illegal trails being built on the mountain, which he said could be almost exclusively pinned on the downhill/freeride set.

"Guys were just riding everywhere in the woods," said Kun. "The Forest Service was really pissed off with what was going on and it probably wasn't long before they shut it down anyway."

A statement on the Team Big Bear Web site read, "Various methods have been used to inhibit the development and use of these trails including, signage, fencing and ticket revocation, but these attempts have proved futile."

As for the NORBA national series race that's scheduled for Big Bear May 14-15, 2005, the event will go on, just without the downhill or dual slalom.

"We'll have the cross-country and maybe the Super D," said Team Big Bear's Tom Spiegel. "But there will be no gravity events, no downhill, no dual slalom. It's all about the danger factor. It's unfortunate, but that's the way it goes."

As for enforcement of the new rule, Snow Summit's Kun said it would probably be a matter of bike weight restrictions, say no bikes over 35 pounds, though a final decision had not yet been made.

"Frankly we considered stopping [bike riding at the resort] all together," said Kun. "But we decided that we were willing to accept the exposure that came with allowing cross-country riding. We haven't had any serious accidents involving cross-country people and we don't think they're the ones building the illegal trails." END

This is not good.* Before you know it, the lawyers will sue all the fun out of everything.* People need to accept personal responsibility.* This is ridiculous.* Below is the link to Team Big Bear for the full story.* http://www.teambigbear.com/
 

wirly

Monkey
Mar 19, 2002
110
0
San Diego
biggins said:
what does the forest service have to do with a private owned resort?
It's not privately owned, it's leased from the parks service, as I understand it. And most of the "fun" trails are off the leased ski areas anyway.
 
Mammoth Mountain is on a 100 year land lease.

Snow Summit and Bear Mountain are on National Forest Service land, but the operators have "Special Use Permits" that allow them to install approved improvements and operate ski resorts and etc... The NFS has the power to administrate and apply conditions to the Permit. That power includes the ability to penalize or regulate for conditions outside the permit area that are apparently a result of the permitted activity.
 

dirt_bandit

Chimp
Dec 7, 2004
17
0
i rode at big bear a lot last season and it was sooo fun and it was my first season with my bike. now no more big bear WTF!! and i have never seen any forest service people out there or any fencing or ticket revocation. thats such ****ing bull****. so much fun to go ride DH for the day with friends and go chill back at the cabin at night but i guess that ****s not happening anymore. eric
 

MTDBIKE

Chimp
Jan 7, 2004
62
0
1/2 FLIGHTLINE
Heath Sherratt said:
I got my gemini dh under 35 lbs.... :)
Ditto...I got my 04Joker under 35lbs

Probably not allow to use a full face and armor.

SS will be uncrowded unless a new trend starts with light freeride bikes or highly modified DH bikes under 35 lbs...
 
MTDBIKE said:
Ditto...I got my 04Joker under 35lbs

Probably not allow to use a full face and armor.

SS will be uncrowded unless a new trend starts with light freeride bikes or highly modified DH bikes under 35 lbs...
Dream on.
Alll the DH runs will no longer be open it appears.
That means riding only the uber boring XC only trails so its pointless to lighten up a DH bike then.
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
11,679
1,725
chez moi
LOOnatic said:
Dream on.
Alll the DH runs will no longer be open it appears.
That means riding only the uber boring XC only trails so its pointless to lighten up a DH bike then.
Yeah, I was trying to avoid being Debbie Downer with that observation...but Loo is right for once. The big 3 race runs won't exist anymore. Pine Knot and Fall Line alone aren't going to be worth the trip up there...and I imagine the enforcement and fencing are going to be big deals if you try and go and ride Darkside or something. Big snow fencing and signs...I'm sure people will pull them down ASAP so they can claim it wasn't signed, but in the end, the forest service will find a way to close it off or simply station rangers there to cite people and remove lift passes.

I don't think it's gonna be the same old big bear with lighter bikes, any way you slice it.
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
11,679
1,725
chez moi
Well, I guess you've been right every time you've said "oh, ****" as you went over the bars, too...

That better?

Can we come visit you in LA to DH now?
 
R

Rabie

Guest
Pegboy said:
Just wondering, is your "Location" actually under that oily rock?
Don't hate on the guy for cutting through all the insurance company/healthcare b.s. and pointing the finger right back where it belongs.
At you.
 

Fury

Monkey
Oct 9, 2002
739
0
Toronto, Canada
I was talking to a buddy of mine and we both agreed it's a tough call. If you were in the same situation would you sue? I say I wouldn't now but imagine if life as you know had just been stripped away from you because of a mistake by course designers... you might change your tune.

But for now I say it sucks and it is sad that one of our own is sueing, yet again.
 

FRnut

Chimp
Oct 3, 2003
18
0
It shouldn't be blamed on the course designers... ESPECIALLY if you're on a DH bike. You should be able to handle the course, or get the hell off. I have personally seen people on the little rented Treks from the bike shop, wearing flip flops and cross country helmets, who look like they've never seen a bike before, let alone ride one... It's not the DHers causing the problems, it's the in-experienced. There is really no easy way around this problem, so they are simply taking the easy way out, and taking the priviledge away from everyone. It sucks, but that's the way the cookie crumbles.

I don't think this ban will last longer than a year. It's only a matter of time before the owner realizes just how much money he's losing by taking away DH. The only way around his loss of profits will be to increase prices everywhere else (Skiiers, boarders, even XCers). Those people will simply stop going to Bear. They will go to Mammoth or wherever else. Most people figure if they're already driving somewhere, they might as well drive further to get more bang for their buck.

It's all a profit thing, and when the owner pulls his head out from between his legs, he'll realize there's no fighting the DHers, because we will win it in the long run.
 

Pegboy

Turbo Monkey
Jan 20, 2003
1,139
27
New Hamp-sha
Well Frnut, I wish that was the case but I've heard differently. I lived in Vail CO for years and knew people who worked for mountain management. I was told that running lifts in the summer is a losing proposition for the mountain. I want to say the quoted number for a day of service was around $10,000 with electricity, employees insurance ect. Vail had two lifts open, so even if you cut that in half you're still looking at 5 G fo a day. I have never seen 100 + people at BB on a non race day. With Vail, they provided the service as a side attraction to keep people coming to to town to fill hotels,restaurants, retail shops ect. BB is a different animal in that it is not really a resort. The lake probably generates more income than the mountain for the town but rest assured the town will feel the impact, especially bike shops, cheap restaurants and motel 6. All of this is speculation, but I don't believe SS/BB is tied into the ownership of any of the shops, lodging or restaurants other than what sits on the hill.

Anyone know the Total cost for running lifts at BB?
 

W4S

Turbo Monkey
Mar 2, 2004
1,282
23
Back in Hell A, b1thces
Pegboy said:
I was told that running lifts in the summer is a losing proposition for the mountain.
I think Summit still plans on running the lifts for other people, they're just not going to allow DH bikes on it.

Pegboy, I hate you so very much. You don't scare me anymore now that rabie and his veggie army have my back.
 

Pegboy

Turbo Monkey
Jan 20, 2003
1,139
27
New Hamp-sha
"I think Summit still plans on running the lifts for other people, they're just not going to allow DH bikes on it. " W4S

I know, I just dont think the income of downhillers is going to change the minds of the shareholders.

You should also know that Rabie is not to be trusted, he's like Packastinian or something, so you can just get rid of your NO FEAR attitude.
 
Pegboy said:
"I think Summit still plans on running the lifts for other people, they're just not going to allow DH bikes on it. " W4S

I know, I just dont think the income of downhillers is going to change the minds of the shareholders.

You should also know that Rabie is not to be trusted, he's like Packastinian or something, so you can just get rid of your NO FEAR attitude.


ARe you about to start quoting David St. Hubbins or something?
 

Edgy

Monkey
May 1, 2003
410
0
O.C
Heres what I see(by the way I'm blind) Years ago when skateboarding evlolved from clay wheels to eurthane, many skate parks sprang up. In fact I worked at one when I was 17...Skateboard Oddesy in Mission Viejo. It was an indoor park.

There were always insurance issues. Yes, they had waivers,etc. but some kids would just forge their parents names, etc. then get hurt and blam...lawsuit.

This happened so much that after a while many parks, including Oddesy closed.

Several years later( the present) skate parks are all over now, even at your local park(Parks & Rec). Whatever happened to allow for parks to open again without the same Ins. liablities is what has to happen in the MTB arena....

my 2 bits...
 
Sep 10, 2001
834
1
FRnut said:
It shouldn't be blamed on the course designers... ESPECIALLY if you're on a DH bike. You should be able to handle the course, or get the hell off. I have personally seen people on the little rented Treks from the bike shop, wearing flip flops and cross country helmets, who look like they've never seen a bike before, let alone ride one... It's not the DHers causing the problems, it's the in-experienced. There is really no easy way around this problem, so they are simply taking the easy way out, and taking the priviledge away from everyone. It sucks, but that's the way the cookie crumbles.

I don't think this ban will last longer than a year. It's only a matter of time before the owner realizes just how much money he's losing by taking away DH. The only way around his loss of profits will be to increase prices everywhere else (Skiiers, boarders, even XCers). Those people will simply stop going to Bear. They will go to Mammoth or wherever else. Most people figure if they're already driving somewhere, they might as well drive further to get more bang for their buck.

It's all a profit thing, and when the owner pulls his head out from between his legs, he'll realize there's no fighting the DHers, because we will win it in the long run.
You are kidding, right? Have you ever seen the number of skiiers there on a given weekend compared to the number of DH riders on a given weekend? Plus, skiiers are already paying $60 for an all day ticket and SS is having to turn people away. DHers pay $20, there are way less people there and we cry about it.... Granted, I didn't like paying $20 for only 3 trails that used less than a quarter of the ski area, so I stopped going.

From a business stand point, it is cheaper to pull the plug in the summer.

You are right.... There is no fighting the DHers... Why bother? There are more XC riders out there anyway...

Brian
 

W4S

Turbo Monkey
Mar 2, 2004
1,282
23
Back in Hell A, b1thces
Brian Peterson said:
From a business stand point, it is cheaper to pull the plug in the summer.

You are right.... There is no fighting the DHers... Why bother? There are more XC riders out there anyway...

Brian
You make some very good points, but I still feel that Snow Summit did not do enough to make their business successful. Brian, do you honestly not believe that DH has a future in the US? That's not a rhetorical question, I'm really curious.

Here's a good read detailing what Summit went through to get where they are today. http://www.snowsummit.com/history.php
 

Slugman

Frankenbike
Apr 29, 2004
4,024
0
Miami, FL
Brian Peterson said:
You are kidding, right? Have you ever seen the number of skiiers there on a given weekend compared to the number of DH riders on a given weekend? Plus, skiiers are already paying $60 for an all day ticket and SS is having to turn people away. DHers pay $20, there are way less people there and we cry about it.... Granted, I didn't like paying $20 for only 3 trails that used less than a quarter of the ski area, so I stopped going.
Very timely and interesting article - shows you the type of $$$ that winter sports bring to the mountain.

There's no business like snow business
Insurance upstart offers policies on spendy season passes

Barbara Noll / AP file
For about 6 percent of the price for a season pass (typically around $1,000), skiers and snowboarders can get a SkierGuard insurance policy that covers loss of pass use due to injury, emergency evacuation of up to $15,000 if you have to be airlifted or transported off the mountain and a maximum of $10,000 for accidental death or dismemberment.
By Erin Chambers

For winter warriors who spend most of their weekends on the slopes, a season ski pass can save a bundle. But what happens if you break your leg on the first run of the season? Traditionally, you're out an entire season's worth of lift tickets. And on the other side of the ticket counter, if you're a ski-resort owner or operator, you're likely to be confronted by an annoyed, crutches-bound pass holder demanding a refund.

Ron Iverson, president of Tourist Insurance Services, set out to solve both problems — and his startup is reaping the benefits of staking out an untapped market. “There was a complete void,” Iverson says. “Nobody was serving pass holders, so we decided to step in.”

For 6 percent of the season-pass price, which typically runs around $1,000, a SkierGuard insurance policy gets you three-way coverage: loss of pass use due to injury, emergency evacuation of up to $15,000 if you have to be airlifted or transported off the mountain, and a maximum of $10,000 for accidental death or dismemberment. SkierGuard is underwritten by National Union Fire Insurance Co. of Pittsburgh, a division of AIG. Though similar offerings are available in Canada, SkierGuard is believed to be the only such service in the U.S.

One-stop shopping
And business is booming. Iverson and his three-employee team sold over 700 policies before Thanksgiving, the unofficial start of the ski season, after a lukewarm debut last year that saw only 150 policies sold during the entire season. Like many small-business owners, Iverson realized that finding a niche is one thing, but exploiting it is another.

-more-
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6667060/
 
Sep 10, 2001
834
1
W4S said:
You make some very good points, but I still feel that Snow Summit did not do enough to make their business successful. Brian, do you honestly not believe that DH has a future in the US? That's not a rhetorical question, I'm really curious.

Here's a good read detailing what Summit went through to get where they are today. http://www.snowsummit.com/history.php
I agree, SS could have done a lot more to make DH a profitable venture. But it comes down to how they look at things. Do you choose to invest more money in the hopes of increasing revenue? Or do you look at the amount of revenue you are currently making compared to the expenses of daily operations and pull the plug? For me on a personal note, if they had put out the effort to get more trails on the ski slopes, I would have kept going. But those same three trails over and over for 10 years... I noticed a few changes over the last year, but for me it was too little, too late. I can say I am 99% positive that as far as DH is concerned, it was a losing situation there. Dual slalom was dropped from the Am Cups because everybody talked about how great it was to have it, but only a few of those people would show up to race.

Do I believe DH has a future in the US? Yes. But, it will take some changes to make it happen. First and most important, all of us have to band together. And by all of us I mean anyone that rides a mountain bike. There are some other things like mountain biking also needs to be recognized as a hazardous activity much like skiing and skateboarding. Ever wonder how all those public skate parks have come about? I could go on about this, but I have to get going.

Brian
 

W4S

Turbo Monkey
Mar 2, 2004
1,282
23
Back in Hell A, b1thces
Edgy said:
Heres what I see(by the way I'm blind) Years ago when skateboarding evlolved from clay wheels to eurthane, many skate parks sprang up. In fact I worked at one when I was 17...Skateboard Oddesy in Mission Viejo. It was an indoor park...
That must have been in, what, 1950? Dude, you're OLD!! :blah:
 

FRnut

Chimp
Oct 3, 2003
18
0
OK, I may be wrong about how the ban will only last a year due to profit issues, my bad, I hadn't realized how much it costs to run the lifts for a day.

Nonetheless, what it really comes down to is that people in America are entirely too sue happy. When you ride, you assume all risks taken, end of story. If you crash, it's your fault. You always hear these stories of the customer at Mc Donald's who spills coffee in their lap, burns themselves, sues, and wins millions in court. I do not understand how the courts could grant money to someone who made a mistake, and was injured for it. The guy hit a trail marker... we've all done it, or something like it. I have read of his injuries, it sucks, I agree; but it is absolutely no reason to sue. It's like a drunk driver driving off the road, hitting a guard rail, and totalling his car, and blaming CalTrans for the accident.
 

ncrider

Turbo Monkey
Aug 15, 2004
1,564
0
Los Angeles
So I've really bin trying to wait all this gossip out before posting, but I can't stand it anymore. The lose of BB sucks bottom line. Oh well lets move on. Mammoth is a million times better. Ten mile DHruns :)
So wipe your tears so cal monkeys and lets put together some sweet rips to Mamoth this summer. Screw BB.
 

Fonzie18

Turbo Monkey
ncrider said:
So I've really bin trying to wait all this gossip out before posting, but I can't stand it anymore. The lose of BB sucks bottom line. Oh well lets move on. Mammoth is a million times better. Ten mile DHruns :)
So wipe your tears so cal monkeys and lets put together some sweet rips to Mamoth this summer. Screw BB.
The only problem is that Mammoth is like what? 6 hours away? Driving really fast :cool: . Big Bear was about 2 hours from the S.D area.

Agreed, the trails started to get old and boring, and needed some improvements. But for some reason, everytime I went up there it was like the first time riding DH all over again. Snow Summit was an important place for many people, not to mention it was just about legendary in terms of mountainbike racing history. We do need to find another place in Southern Cali. I'm gonna go cry now :nopity:

-ALF
 
Sep 10, 2001
834
1
Speaking about the money part of things.... I was involved in a conversation about this before I went home last night.... The word I hear is that the most successful mountain bike park going right now, Whistler, makes about as much money during one holiday weekend of skiing as they do the whole summer of Mountain Biking. Kind of puts things into prospective... Especially for those that have seen the lift lines in Whistler compared to Snow Summit..

Brian
 

Fury

Monkey
Oct 9, 2002
739
0
Toronto, Canada
Brian Peterson said:
Speaking about the money part of things.... I was involved in a conversation about this before I went home last night.... The word I hear is that the most successful mountain bike park going right now, Whistler, makes about as much money during one holiday weekend of skiing as they do the whole summer of Mountain Biking. Kind of puts things into prospective... Especially for those that have seen the lift lines in Whistler compared to Snow Summit..

Brian
Most resorts make 75% of their income during the few weeks over the Christmas holidays. That isn't surprising at all. The idea is that if the profits and other factors (promotion exposure, condo sales, etc.) outweigh other investment opportunities it's better to stay open during the summer.
 
Sep 10, 2001
834
1
It wasn't very suprising to me either, but to see how big the difference between skiing and biking was a little surprising considering the amount of riders there in the summer.

Brian