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Legal Singletrack at Joaquim Miller Park

justsomeguy

Monkey
Oct 3, 2005
723
0
ghettogt76 said:
We have just as much right to ride down these trails as hikers do to walk up them.
This is really sad. I'm sorry to inform you that we don't have as much rights as hikers do. Our rights are limited in that we are supposed to slow down to 5mph when passing hikers, slow down to 5mph riding around blind corners and ostensibly not go faster than 15 mph (like that happens in the real world).

Buzzing hikers is a problem at JM. Do you want to be part of the solution, or part of the problem?

ghettogt76 said:
Too bad we are not all "perfectly in control at all times" riders like you are.
I never wrote that. You only make yourself look more juvenile when you start making things up. Thanks for accepting me as a "mountian biker" though. I was SO devastated because you and your pal assumed I didn't ride!

So your pal exaggerates a lot huh? That explains some of the disconnect then.

Heath Sherratt said:
your tone is hostile and repulsive
Drama queen in da house!
 

OGRipper

back alley ripper
Feb 3, 2004
10,647
1,116
NORCAL is the hizzle
Justsomeguy, I don't agree that we don't have as much rights. On a legal trail, all users have the same right to be there - we are members of the public using a public trail. People on foot are not allowed to go too fast around blind corners either, it's just not much of a problem for most of them. (However, I know trailrunners that have come around blind corners too fast and gotten into trouble with trail features and other users.) The fact that more restrictions apply to cyclists doesn't mean we have less right to be there and I'm surprised to hear a cyclist argue to the contrary.

What happened to giving other cyclists the benefit of the doubt? How is it that you are so sure these guys are the kind of jerk-off riders we all know and hate? And as for your comments about storm troopers, are you saying that wearing safety gear is a bad idea? What, we can't wear gear and still ride responsibly?
 

justsomeguy

Monkey
Oct 3, 2005
723
0
OGRipper said:
The fact that more restrictions apply to cyclists doesn't mean we have less right to be there and I'm surprised to hear a cyclist argue to the contrary.
Huh? I never wrote that we had less of a right to be there. Maybe you should read that part again?

We have just as much a right to be there but we have restrictions on how we use the trail. It's really simple.

p.s. We do have less of a right to be on Big Trees in the Winter (we're banned due to bullsh|t "environental" reasons that were used to justify the seasonal closure 5 years ago).


OGRipper said:
What happened to giving other cyclists the benefit of the doubt? How is it that you are so sure these guys are the kind of jerk-off riders we all know and hate?
My bad on believing what the kid wrote. I took his account of two wheel drifting around a corner and crashing at face value.

I guess I should have called raised the bullsh|t flag and told him that he was a slow and un-skilled rider instead. How was I to know?

OGRipper said:
And as for your comments about storm troopers, are you saying that wearing safety gear is a bad idea? What, we can't wear gear and still ride responsibly?
We seem to have a reading comprehension issue here.Those weren't my comments about storm troopers ("Just the typical full-blown DH kit as seen through the eyes of some pissed off hikers. ").

I'm sure people could be responsible riders in a coat of shiny armor. Whether it's required garb for JM is a personal thing.
 

OGRipper

back alley ripper
Feb 3, 2004
10,647
1,116
NORCAL is the hizzle
Yes, you did say we don't have as much rights: "I'm sorry to inform you that we don't have as much rights as hikers do."

You are not sorry, and your attitude makes you sound like an elitist prick. You don't seem interested in helping people understand how to help move our sport forward - in short, you make people want to disobey whatever you suggest.

But I am not playing your game, so goodbye.
 

justsomeguy

Monkey
Oct 3, 2005
723
0
OGRipper said:
Yes, you did say we don't have as much rights: "I'm sorry to inform you that we don't have as much rights as hikers do."
You're all over the place here. Yes, our rights are restricted compared to hikers.

In your last post you wrote" The fact that more restrictions apply to cyclists doesn't mean we have less right to be there"

Again, I never wrote that we have less of a right to be there, just that we have different rights when on the trails...

OGRipper said:
You are not sorry, and your attitude makes you sound like an elitist prick. You don't seem interested in helping people understand how to help move our sport forward - in short, you make people want to disobey whatever you suggest.
If pointing out the fact that you misunderstood/misread my posts makes me an elitist prick in your mind, so be it. I can't help the fact that you apparently have trouble following along.

If people are foolish enough to ride like tools at JM I can't do much about it, other than point out their idiocy. I can also point out how short-sighted they are being and that the HOHAs would like nothing better than riders being tools, getting the trails shut down for riding, and then enjoying "their" trails without having to share them with us.
 

OGRipper

back alley ripper
Feb 3, 2004
10,647
1,116
NORCAL is the hizzle
justsomeguy said:
I'm sorry to inform you that we don't have as much rights as hikers do.
justsomeguy said:
Again, I never wrote that we have less of a right to be there...

Hmmm, maybe you meant to say something different. And maybe you are not the tool you seem to be. Cut me some slack, I'm slow and having trouble following...
 

MVRIDER

Monkey
Sep 23, 2003
248
0
Mtn. View, Ca.
justsomeguy said:
You're all over the place here. Yes, our rights are restricted compared to hikers.

In your last post you wrote" The fact that more restrictions apply to cyclists doesn't mean we have less right to be there"

Again, I never wrote that we have less of a right to be there, just that we have different rights when on the trails...



If pointing out the fact that you misunderstood/misread my posts makes me an elitist prick in your mind, so be it. I can't help the fact that you apparently have trouble following along.

If people are foolish enough to ride like tools at JM I can't do much about it, other than point out their idiocy. I can also point out how short-sighted they are being and that the HOHAs would like nothing better than riders being tools, getting the trails shut down for riding, and then enjoying "their" trails without having to share them with us.
The bottom line-no one appreciates a self loather, which is what you've come across as to many of us. Like others have said if you want people to hear you, you have to win them, coming on as a fairly new member and *sounding* like all the rules at this place have been made by you and your hiker buddys and that we are all so lucky to be able to ride and we better follow YOUR rules aint the way to do it.

The sad thing is that I know alot of the members involved in this very thread put a lot of serious back breaking toil and time into fighting for the same cause you seem to be headed for.
 

justsomeguy

Monkey
Oct 3, 2005
723
0
OGRipper said:
Hmmm, maybe you meant to say something different. And maybe you are not the tool you seem to be. Cut me some slack, I'm slow and having trouble following...
Key word: "there"

Good luck!


MVRIDER said:
The bottom line-no one appreciates a self loather, which is what you've come across as to many of us.
I believe the psychologists call that "projection."

Loathe is such a strong word. Let's try pity instead.

I pity the folks that enjoy riding but can't see the connection between riding like tools and trails being threatened at JM.


MVRIDER said:
coming on as a fairly new member and *sounding* like all the rules at this place have been made by you and your hiker buddys and that we are all so lucky to be able to ride and we better follow YOUR rules aint the way to do it.
That is hilarious, yet sad at the same time.

If pointing out common sense stuff like staying in control is a good thing while riding in a relatively crowded urban park, that riders shouldn't buzz other trails users, etc. makes me out to be a hiker then there isn't much hope for common sense being common.

So here's the synopsis:

-Some random teenager (#1) exaggerates about how he was riding at JM when he lost control and crashed

-I suggest that riding out of control at JM is dumb in lioght of the sensitive advocacy issues that are ongoing

-Some random non-teenager, and friend of random teeneager #1 claims that everyone on his ride was in control, despite random teenager #1's story.

-Some other random teenager (#2) jumps in, random teenager #1 jumps in and lots of name calling and general cluelessness abounds.

-Some other random person jumps in complaining about hikers not moving out of his way when they see him.

-MVRIDER inserts a number of smilies but they don't help him one bit

-Finally random teenager #1 is exposed as being FOS in his story that sparked my interest in the first place.

-Numerous people get bent because DH gear was described as being "storm trooper" by an angry hiker.

What with all of the reading comprehension issues and assumptions, it's getting pretty damn funny at this point.
 

OGRipper

back alley ripper
Feb 3, 2004
10,647
1,116
NORCAL is the hizzle
Wait you forgot:

- justsomeguy preaches to the choir from a bully pulpit and can't understand why pompous self-righteousness is winning him no friends or respect.

:nopity:

I don't disagree with everything you are saying, but damn your delivery sucks so much that I want to.
 

Qman

Monkey
Feb 7, 2005
633
0
justsomeguy said:
What with all of the reading comprehension issues and assumptions, it's getting pretty damn funny at this point.
It has definitely been part of my daily dose of humor for the last few days.
 

justsomeguy

Monkey
Oct 3, 2005
723
0
OGRipper said:
Wait you forgot:

- justsomeguy preaches to the choir from a bully pulpit and can't understand why pompous self-righteousness is winning him no friends or respect.
I would disagree about preaching to the choir. Sure, some of the folks get it but based on many of the replies, there are a bunch of folks that clearly don't "get it."

One more addition thanks to your post:

- justsomeguy laughs out loud because OGripper thinks he should be concerned about winning friends and/or respect from a handful of folks, many of whom have proven to be at least a little bit easily confused.
 

sanjuro

Tube Smuggler
Sep 13, 2004
17,373
0
SF
justsomeguy said:
I would disagree about preaching to the choir. Sure, some of the folks get it but based on many of the replies, there are a bunch of folks that clearly don't "get it."

One more addition thanks to your post:

- justsomeguy laughs out loud because OGripper thinks he should be concerned about winning friends and/or respect from a handful of folks, many of whom have proven to be at least a little bit easily confused.
I appreciate you taking the negative on this discussion.

I should point I had to stop on Bayview to help a friend fix his chain. 6 guys on $1500 XC bikes zoomed past us, without a "hey" or "need a hand?"

They weren't going 30 mph or even threatened me, but they seemed like jerks. I could imagine the same scene if I was a hiker having to dodge these guys.

I don't think you are a hiker or an anti-biker. You expressed the caution side of riding. You make a good point earlier about taking good lines at controlled speeds, and I agree. My friend might have crashed, but I doubt he was going much faster than me.

We might have the same rights as hikers and horses, but I know I conveniently ignore speed limits when I am riding. I think most trails are 15mph on easy trails and 5mph on the hard ones, and I am probably riding them at 25 and 15.

We should be careful in a place like JM, but still be able to air it out.
 

Brian HCM#1

MMMMMMMMM BEER!!!!!!!!!!
Sep 7, 2001
32,119
378
Bay Area, California
All right children that's enough!!!!!! Look, to the younger folk that rides there. We have fought for years to keep whats open to mountain bikers. The hippies wanted to close it ALL down to MTB's period. I went a few times to the city council meetings about this park to fight to keep it open, they were kind to allow some of it to remain open to us. As we all are aware here in the Bay Area, single track is illegal just about everywhere. As I mention before since the City of Oaktown 3-5-7 owns that land, it's nice to be able to enjoy whats available to us. Be respectful to the hikers and as much as it hurts, the Tree Hugging Hippies. We can still ride aggressive, but use your head while doing so.
 

TheMontashu

Pourly Tatteued Jeu
Mar 15, 2004
5,549
0
I'm homeless
justsomeguy said:
JM will continue to be sensitive spot due to the large number people that use the park. In the past knobs on DH bikes dressed up like storm troopers riding like they're racing for the podium have made an especially negative impression on other trail users (to the point that they've become actively involved in trying to get bikes banned from the park). Riding out of control at JM isn't a good idea.
Ya becuase a Tshirt (or beater in the case of last wed) and a pair of jeans or PJs is realy what "storm troopers" wear
 

sanjuro

Tube Smuggler
Sep 13, 2004
17,373
0
SF
TheMontashu said:
Ya becuase a Tshirt (or beater in the case of last wed) and a pair of jeans or PJs is realy what "storm troopers" wear
How's your shoulder, where you crashed on it? Good thing you just wearing a wifebeater...
 

justsomeguy

Monkey
Oct 3, 2005
723
0
TheMontashu said:
Ya becuase a Tshirt (or beater in the case of last wed) and a pair of jeans or PJs is realy what "storm troopers" wear
psssst...can I let you in on a secret?

Not every comment in this thread is about you.
 

pbr

Chimp
Aug 18, 2003
90
0
San Francisco
you know what would resolve these issues? If mountain bikers, as a group could unite enough to gather some clout, and create a one way trail that is for bikes.

IMBA happens to have a section regarding sustainable freeriding trails. Creating a bike specific trail where hikers are the secondary users would be an ideal situation. Problem is, it would take a considerable effort from all of us to make this a reality.

http://www.imba.com/resources/freeriding/index.html#Guides
 

Backpack1

Monkey
Mar 16, 2005
227
0
GNORKAL
I'm not going to read all that, but my thoughts are - if you are a serious FR/DH rider stay away...leave it for hikers, walkers, stoners and Ti XC riders. The terrain at JM is not worth the political damage or the feeling that you are a rabid skink at the fungi scientist's picnic.. Let the Hippies have this one and find real riding elsewhere. There is plenty of killer illegal EB riding where no hikers dare. Let BTCEB keep it open for the mello cycling community. Been there rode that, etc. Peas.

meant 'Skunk' but skinks are cool too.
 

Xvert

Chimp
Nov 9, 2005
33
0
Nor Cal SF Bay Area
Backpack1 said:
I'm not going to read all that, but my thoughts are - if you are a serious FR/DH rider stay away...leave it for hikers, walkers, stoners and Ti XC riders. The terrain at JM is not worth the political damage or the feeling that you are a rabid skink at the fungi scientist's picnic.. Let the Hippies have this one and find real riding elsewhere. There is plenty of killer illegal EB riding where no hikers dare. Let BTCEB keep it open for the mello cycling community. Been there rode that, etc. Peas.

meant 'Skunk' but skinks are cool too.
Are you advocating poaching other EB trails so the "XC" crowd can have JM? Why don't you put a weight scale and suspension measurement station in the upper parking lot while you're at it. This kind of silo thinking is why the hiking and equestrian groups have more clout.
 

TheMontashu

Pourly Tatteued Jeu
Mar 15, 2004
5,549
0
I'm homeless
Backpack1 said:
I'm not going to read all that, but my thoughts are - if you are a serious FR/DH rider stay away...leave it for hikers, walkers, stoners and Ti XC riders. The terrain at JM is not worth the political damage or the feeling that you are a rabid skink at the fungi scientist's picnic.. Let the Hippies have this one and find real riding elsewhere. There is plenty of killer illegal EB riding where no hikers dare. Let BTCEB keep it open for the mello cycling community. Been there rode that, etc. Peas.

meant 'Skunk' but skinks are cool too.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE tell me were all of this mythical DH land you speak of is.
 

H8R

Cranky Pants
Nov 10, 2004
13,959
35
Backpack1 said:
I'm not going to read all that, but my thoughts are - if you are a serious FR/DH rider stay away...leave it for hikers, walkers, stoners and Ti XC riders.
And REALLY piss off some hiker flying through the illegal parts of Redwood maybe?

Where in the EB are you NOT going to piss off hikers, legal trails or otherwise?


JM has been a mountian bike playground for years, and the people that hike there know it. DH riding is not the best idea there though, I agree. Be nice to the locals and don't run people over.
 

OGRipper

back alley ripper
Feb 3, 2004
10,647
1,116
NORCAL is the hizzle
H8R said:
And REALLY piss off some hiker flying through the illegal parts of Redwood maybe?

Yeah I've never heard "Go ride illegal trails instead" as an argument for maintaining harmony out there. :p I mean, I would rather bomb French Trail but I don't see the justification...
 

justsomeguy

Monkey
Oct 3, 2005
723
0
H8R said:
Where in the EB are you NOT going to piss off hikers, legal trails or otherwise?
Places like Black Diamond and Diablo, for starters. I rarely see anyone when I ride the good stuff.

It's all about picking the right time and the right place.
 

Xvert

Chimp
Nov 9, 2005
33
0
Nor Cal SF Bay Area
justsomeguy said:
Places like Black Diamond and Diablo, for starters. I rarely see anyone when I ride the good stuff.

It's all about picking the right time and the right place.
...except maybe the water tower trail but question it's legallity. Legal challenging single track is rare on this side of the bay and both Mt. D and JM both have them. It would not be fair to ostracize one group of mountain bikers from an area based on perceived reputation. Instead of saying DH/FR stay out, better to let it be known for everyone who rides at JM to be courteous and polite even to some real arseholes out there. I'm pretty sure DH/FR riders that frequent Montara for example don't have a problem with the XC folks attempting the Mile.
 

justsomeguy

Monkey
Oct 3, 2005
723
0
Xvert said:
...except maybe the water tower trail but question it's legallity.
Perhaps you're confusing Lime Ridge (water tank at the top of Mach 5) with Black Diamond? If not, where is the water tower located?

I agree Black Diamond doesn't compare. It has more technical singletrack and less crowds. It's just inaccessible for a few days after heavy rains and the singletrack requires more riding to get to since it's tucked away throughout the park.

North Peak Trail is a nice legal trail on Diablo but it pales in comparison (from a technically challenging standpoint) to many other Diablo trails.

p.s. Note that "H8R" didn't specify only legal trails...
 

sanjuro

Tube Smuggler
Sep 13, 2004
17,373
0
SF
Mount Diablo is not the place I would recommend for DH/FR. Even if you drive to the top, the legal trail down, "The Freeway" is a dirt road (albeit you can hit some speed there).

Most of the legal trails are fireroads, and the one primary singletrack, off Devil's Elbow, you run into scads of hikers on the weekends.
 

Heath Sherratt

Turbo Monkey
Jun 17, 2004
1,871
0
In a healthy tension
Legal shmeagle. Los Trampas, Briones, Diablo, Lime, Shell even if you hit the steep stuff. There is stuff evrywhere. Timing and responsibility will always be the deciding factor as to the length of time one can ride trails. I have ridden pretty much evrything on the map in the eastbay and only had altercations with assholes on legal trails and one altercation with the infamous trail nazi on Side-o. I rode there for three years with no drama. Oh, and Rockville too. Love it. You know you do. Love it. Rockville, your mom. H
 

Xvert

Chimp
Nov 9, 2005
33
0
Nor Cal SF Bay Area
justsomeguy said:
Perhaps you're confusing Lime Ridge (water tank at the top of Mach 5) with Black Diamond? If not, where is the water tower located?

Middle of Black Diamond around the campground there is a four way intersection... there is a trail that heads up buy a water tower. Near the top at the power line is a reasonably fun singletrack to your left. It's been years since I've ridden it but I don't think it's "legal".
 

Xvert

Chimp
Nov 9, 2005
33
0
Nor Cal SF Bay Area
Heath Sherratt said:
Legal shmeagle. Los Trampas, Briones, Diablo, Lime, Shell even if you hit the steep stuff. There is stuff evrywhere. Timing and responsibility will always be the deciding factor as to the length of time one can ride trails. I have ridden pretty much evrything on the map in the eastbay and only had altercations with assholes on legal trails and one altercation with the infamous trail nazi on Side-o. I rode there for three years with no drama. Oh, and Rockville too. Love it. You know you do. Love it. Rockville, your mom. H
I don't know if you remember me, you sold a RockHopper FSR to me for my wife for Xmas from PH Cyclery.

Still rockin' Cdales I see. Are you racing CMC this year?
 

Xvert

Chimp
Nov 9, 2005
33
0
Nor Cal SF Bay Area
sanjuro said:
Mount Diablo is not the place I would recommend for DH/FR. Even if you drive to the top, the legal trail down, "The Freeway" is a dirt road (albeit you can hit some speed there).

Most of the legal trails are fireroads, and the one primary singletrack, off Devil's Elbow, you run into scads of hikers on the weekends.
Exact reason why the east bay generally sucks for anyone who has a 5+ travel bike other than urban. But Devil's Elbow can be reasonable during early morning runs.