Demo 8 vs. 7 point 7

Grizzle · Mar 11, 2006

well as a person that works in a shop, i would have to say go specialized. Not because we carry specialized, but because we carry ironhorse. I have seen an aweful lot of quality control related problems coming from ironhorse lately, and their customer service has absolutely sucked every time i have had to call them to get parts under warranty for anything. Im sure the 7.7 is a nice bike, but from what i have seen there is a good chance that when you get one it will be goofed up to some extent. Now if you are purchasing it through a shop, and you get to check it out before you buy it, you will probably be allright. But i would probably go specialized.

maxyedor · Mar 11, 2006

Grizzle said:
well as a person that works in a shop, i would have to say go specialized. Not because we carry specialized, but because we carry ironhorse. I have seen an aweful lot of quality control related problems coming from ironhorse lately, and their customer service has absolutely sucked every time i have had to call them to get parts under warranty for anything. Im sure the 7.7 is a nice bike, but from what i have seen there is a good chance that when you get one it will be goofed up to some extent. Now if you are purchasing it through a shop, and you get to check it out before you buy it, you will probably be allright. But i would probably go specialized.

I will agree that IronHorse has a bad habbit of making shop employees bitter. I am a very bitter ex-wrench. But telling someone to buy a specialized is just mean. On the consumer end IH isn't half bad.

Heavy C · Mar 11, 2006

Grizzle said:
I have seen an aweful lot of quality control related problems coming from ironhorse lately, and their customer service has absolutely sucked every time i have had to call them to get parts under warranty for anything.

What quality control issues are you referring to? It seems to me that IH Bikes is very proactive in dealing with any problems and certainly focussed on refining there products.

I have had nothing but prompt, professional service with any dealings.

The 7.7 is more of a 'due everything' ride than the d8. You cant easily take the demo out on a long pedal up to that epic dh.
I have djumped, dh'd, and done long xc on my 7.7. and as a park bike it has a slightly steeper head angle amking it very responsive but still totally stable on Garbonzo trails or elsewhere.

Netguy · Mar 11, 2006

I always thought the Demo9 was the perfect Whistler bike, until I got my hands on a Demo8. There are not many bikes out there that will handle better in the roots and rocks found on Garbo. + you can't beat the lifetime warranty and one of the stiffest rear ends around. Is it just me, or was there more Demo's at Whistler last year, than any other bike?

PatBranch · Mar 11, 2006

I saw mostly Konas there last summer. I personnaly would rather have a 7point. It seems a little more agile and has enought travel for me. I really don't need 8+" of travel.

Have you ridden them? You may think you like one better, but if you ride them, that might even completely change your pre ride thoughts. Your spending this much money, might as well try before you buy.

TheInedibleHulk · Mar 11, 2006

The Specialized is a much higher quality bike. Both designs are legit, but the specialized wins just on initial quality and reliability.

Grizzle · Mar 11, 2006

Heavy C said:
What quality control issues are you referring to? It seems to me that IH Bikes is very proactive in dealing with any problems and certainly focussed on refining there products.

I have had nothing but prompt, professional service with any dealings.

The 7.7 is more of a 'due everything' ride than the d8. You cant easily take the demo out on a long pedal up to that epic dh.
I have djumped, dh'd, and done long xc on my 7.7. and as a park bike it has a slightly steeper head angle amking it very responsive but still totally stable on Garbonzo trails or elsewhere.

The main quality control issues im referring to are the following: I prodealt an 05' yakuza kamichu from ironhorse. Transaction went smoothly, i was pleased as pie. The bike arrives. I am stoked. I unpack the bike.

WTF is this? The axle is seized in the fork, paint is all FUBAR'd and scratched to hell, and the front brake master cylinder bleed plug has been ripped out, and is sitting in the bottom of the box in a puddle of brake fluid. Im a little irritated at this point, but hey, i just got the bike for an EP price, so i can't really complain. So i call ironhorse customer service, and explain my situation. The dude that answers is a total douche. He tells me that the brakes are not ironhorse's problem, neither is the paint, or the seized axle. Call me crazy, but i kind of doubt that Hayes sent a person down to ironhorse's factory to put the brakes on that bike, and ya know the brakes got FUBAR'd by ironhorse, cause the brake bits are laying in the bottom of the damn box. I am now pissed, if i had known i was going to EP a screwed up bike, i would have bought one from supergo for 1400.

SECOND REASON. My shop gets a MKIII in as a repair/fix. This bike has just come directly from our corporate office, where it was given as a demo bike to some higher-up. 1st issue with the bike. Some brillliant person at ironhorse has installed the spacers to run a 68 mm BB shell width on the BB cups, even though the shell is a 73 mm shell. The result is a crank that will not tighten properly, and makes a horrible creaking sound. Second issue. The DW link on the bike has been designed with so little clearance that if you move the front derailleur limit low enough for the chain to drop to the first ring, the derailleur now hits the lower suspension link and causes a huge gouge to happen. Basically, the bike was never quality checked and it really shows. So i call ironhorse again. I am informed that i " must be doing something wrong because the bike works fine" I am a mechanic with over 3 years experience, and i have never seen quality control that was this bad before. So as i was saying, dont buy an ironhorse unless it is from a shop. I would welcome any feedback from DW or anyone at ironhorse, but i can never seem to get ahold of anyone that is helpful. :help:

Ok, in ironhorse's defense now, once i got my yakuza straitened out, the bike is phenomenal. Its a little heavy, but change out the front fork and its a real downhill beast. For my first downhill rig, i feel it was an excellent bike, great performance, unfortunately it is just a little to small and heavy for me now.

wysiwyg · Mar 11, 2006

from now on all bike vs bike arguements shall be concluded thus.

dhmtbj · Mar 11, 2006

I think the 7.7 is far more reasonable an will be more fun for the riding you want to do. The demos are DH bikes. If you are going to be riding some trails, the 7.7 will handle this better than the demo 8. The 7.7 will also do pretty well for DH riding.

Jm_ · Mar 11, 2006

Heavy C said:
What quality control issues are you referring to?

There's always a lot of things that they screw up, chainstays not strong enough, shock hardware wrong, excessive stack height, wrong valving for the shocks, we found the alignment off on an sgs pro fr bike, crappy spec (manitou shock with bushings that don't last a darn, IH's admission), etc.

They're a company trying to do good, but I think more than others they fall prey to the fact that their bikes are produced overseas, and that creates a lot of these problems. With the IH bikes that we've dealt with in the shop, plus my own and my friends, it seems that IH has more of these problems than other manufacturers. I'd be interested to get one of their "made in the usa" bikes and have a significant amount of time on it, to see how they compare.

Bicyclist · Mar 11, 2006

dhmtbj said:
I think the 7.7 is far more reasonable an will be more fun for the riding you want to do. The demos are DH bikes. If you are going to be riding some trails, the 7.7 will handle this better than the demo 8. The 7.7 will also do pretty well for DH riding.

I think it's funny that when compared to a 7" bike the Demo is only for DH but when compared to a DH bike it's no good at downhill, it's a damn FR bike.

I own a Demo 8 and often take it on long, epic rides. I ride 15 mile loops on it with 38x12-25 gearing. Hard? Yes. Do-able? Yes. I don't really like the 7Point series. My buddy has one and it doesn't "feel" right when you ride it. His is a 15" and it came way undersprung in the rear. That might contribute to the weird ride but it seems like IH would match the front and rear suspension.

slang · Mar 11, 2006

have you considered an sx-trail?

Bicyclist · Mar 11, 2006

slang said:
have you considered an sx-trail?

I would ride one of those for FR over a 7Point in a heartbeat.

I guess you should figure out what you're doing most.

Are you DJing and riding tech FR stuff?

Or are you riding rough terrain and big lines?

Either way I would go for a Specialized over an IH because of the superior quality and lifetime warranty.

Bicyclist · Mar 11, 2006

It sounds like you need a Demo 8. Stack height is how tall the headtube is, which determines your bar height.

TheInedibleHulk · Mar 11, 2006

My recommendation from what youre saying would be to get the demo, swap the 888 out for a boxxer team (should be able to break even cost wise), and maybe do a few other small changes to drop weight. The demo pedals pretty well and people have set them up for freeride before. As for dirt jumping, just get a cheap hardtail DJ for that (P2, porter, whatever). If you can spend 3500 on a big bike I suspect you can scrape 700 together for a hardtail. Or get a used one for like 300 for that matter. Dirt jumping on a hardtail is much easier and will go a long way to developing your precision and just general bike handling. If you really only want one bike, I would look at the SX Trail.

monke880 · Mar 11, 2006

Good call. Demos are awesome.

seismic · Mar 11, 2006

Of those two bikes get the D8 !

sbabuser · Mar 11, 2006

kona_rider said:
go with the demo 8 its a sweet bike

If you're pedalling at all, my vote is 7 Point - killer bike. Mine did have some shock hardware issues, but once that was taken care of, it was solid. I don't believe that Specialized has never had any issues out of the box. How many broken Enduros have there been? How many fkd up Swingers showed up on Demos?
But if you're riding mainly dh, the Demo is probably the better choice - adjustable geometry and slacker angles even in the steeper settings.

Netguy · Mar 12, 2006

TheInedibleHulk said:
If you really only want one bike, I would look at the SX Trail.

I second that. The SX Trail is a sick bike. For me, its my everything bike, except for Whistler. However, with that being said, I am excited to take it down Aline and DM this year.

dw · Mar 12, 2006

TheInedibleHulk said:
The Specialized is a much higher quality bike. Both designs are legit, but the specialized wins just on initial quality and reliability.

You have obviously never looked at a 7POINT. There are a lot of valid points that a person could make to support either bike one way or another, but this is not one. Both the 7POINT and Demo 8 are built in Taiwan, within minutes of each other, and using materials, and forgings built by many of the exact same suppliers.

Dave

dw · Mar 12, 2006

Jm_ said:
There's always a lot of things that they screw up, chainstays not strong enough, shock hardware wrong, excessive stack height, wrong valving for the shocks, we found the alignment off on an sgs pro fr bike, crappy spec (manitou shock with bushings that don't last a darn, IH's admission), etc.

They're a company trying to do good, but I think more than others they fall prey to the fact that their bikes are produced overseas, and that creates a lot of these problems. With the IH bikes that we've dealt with in the shop, plus my own and my friends, it seems that IH has more of these problems than other manufacturers. I'd be interested to get one of their "made in the usa" bikes and have a significant amount of time on it, to see how they compare.

I canagree with some of your points, but I hardly think that some of them are really valid, I mean, chainstays not strong enough? Maybe on a 2003 SGS for some people, that bike was designed in 2001! Five years later, and a LOT of things have changed. I can verify for a fact that there have been ZERO chainstay breaks on Sundays or 7POINTS,and one that I know of on Yakuzas that were rental bikes at Diablo. Those are real numbers.

Excessive stack height? The Sunday was the FIRST bike that was designed arong the e13 reducing headset, and paved the way for low stack heights on DH bikes. Look at how many use them now, 3 years after the Sunday prototypes showed up at the NORBAs with the design.

I totally agree that Iron Horse has been the victim of circumstance. Its a part of manufacturing anywhere. All companies deal with it, and I can tell you for certain that Iron Horse is not alone. How many people broke links on Giant DH bikes? How many people broke the seat mast off FSR DH bikes? How many people cracked their XXXX botique brand bikes? How many people bent shock pins on their <insert brand here> bikes? Cracked top links on the most popular trail bike of the last 4 years? Yup, almost all of them. These things do happen, despite the best efforts of many people at many different companies. Its part of life and doing business, but the responsible companiese (Like Iron Horse) dont try to cover it up. They get the word out there, and make sure the riders are taken care of. That is why there are so many rabidly loyal IH riders. They know that the company has their back, and takes responsibilities for any issue, regardless of whether its a design or supplier issue. Customer service is paramount.

Actually I am in Taiwan right now. This has been a special trip. I am bringing our new team of manufacturing engineers to meet our suppliers in Asia. With 90 years of bicycle manufacturing experience in Asia, they will be the eyes and ears on the ground in Asia. Quality will improve, and you will see even better product from Iron Horse, K2, and Columbia. I know that everyone involved is really excited about it, becuase it will make communication a lot easier and more accurate.

I'll fill you in on one thing. USA suppliers? Iron Horse builds frames with the best of them, but if you think that the metal parts that ALL of them use are not sourced overseas, you are mistaken. There are not many bicycles in the world without Taiwan or China built parts of some type. Taiwan is the metal forming capital of the world. They do it BETTER than anyone. The infrastructure is set up for it, and they do the volume and complexity needed to satisfy the most demanding customers. Boeing, Airbus, and bike companies worldwide figured this out years ago. Just an FYI about the way things work.

Anyways, sorry to derail this thread. I say go ride the bikes to help make a decision. I think both are good bikes personally, but the real decision comes up to the rider. Whatever rides better for you is the right bike.

Until next time

Dave

Grizzle · Mar 12, 2006

Dave - what about the customer service issues though?

biggins · Mar 12, 2006

i have ridden both and demos just give me a boner. however i have dealt with service through both companies as a consumer and i would say that Iron Horse always does me right and they do it damn quickly as well. The 7 series feels awesome and i am hoping it will be my next bike.

biggins · Mar 12, 2006

i also must say that the iron horse bikes i owned were all top notch quality even the lower end models.

MOTODH · Mar 12, 2006

Grizzle said:
Dave - what about the customer service issues though?

I've had nothing but great experiences, they take good care of ya :thumb:

sama1ter · Mar 12, 2006

Netguy said:
I second that. The SX Trail is a sick bike. For me, its my everything bike, except for Whistler. However, with that being said, I am excited to take it down Aline and DM this year.

i bought my SX Trail about 2 months before i went up to Whistler for 3 weeks last summer. It killed. If youre not really doing ALL dh, and still doing some trails, i HIGHLY recommend the SX. Such a fun bike, for everything from garbonzo to aline to the boneyard. I broke the Chainstay on the wallride on the last day(thank god), and had no problems with warrenty from Specialized.

Heavy C · Mar 12, 2006

dw said:
These things do happen, despite the best efforts of many people at many different companies. Its part of life and doing business, but the responsible companiese (Like Iron Horse) dont try to cover it up. They get the word out there, and make sure the riders are taken care of. That is why there are so many rabidly loyal IH riders. They know that the company has their back, and takes responsibilities for any issue, regardless of whether its a design or supplier issue. Customer service is paramount.

QUOTE]

This is exactly why I plan on ridding IH bikes for years to come. How many companies provide access to the product manager and the designer/engineers as readily as Todd and Dave on this site?

It is my feeling that IH as a company has the upmost interest in providing good service and continuing to improve their product.

biggins · Mar 12, 2006

Heavy C said:
dw said:

These things do happen, despite the best efforts of many people at many different companies. Its part of life and doing business, but the responsible companiese (Like Iron Horse) dont try to cover it up. They get the word out there, and make sure the riders are taken care of. That is why there are so many rabidly loyal IH riders. They know that the company has their back, and takes responsibilities for any issue, regardless of whether its a design or supplier issue. Customer service is paramount.

QUOTE]

This is exactly why I plan on ridding IH bikes for years to come. How many companies provide access to the product manager and the designer/engineers as readily as Todd and Dave on this site?

It is my feeling that IH as a company has the upmost interest in providing good service and continuing to improve their product.

Click to expand...

word.anyone from specialized on here?anyone?anyone?other than sponsored riders.

slang · Mar 12, 2006

biggins said:
Heavy C said:

word.anyone from specialized on here?anyone?anyone?other than sponsored riders.

Click to expand...

the bike industry is a hard one to survive in, and for them to place customer support in forums around the internet would be ridiculous. just because dave is a local on these boards doesnt mean you seem him everywhere else.

not only that, specialized is a HUGE company, esp. compared to IH. it would be far more professional for them to deal with customers either through shops, email, or phone. not that you cant do the same with IH, but posting here would probably get you a quicker response, therefore giving IH more of a local feel.

In canada, the only way to buy an IH localy was from sportchek. pretty ridiculous is you ask me.

i'm not bashing dave, e13, or IH at all, and thoroughly respect all the work put into their products (i run an e13 chainguide and love it) and have heard many many good things about the bikes, but i just find it interesting how the presence of dave in a thread will instantly turn the thread into a love-dave hate-the-haters thing.

Bicyclist · Mar 12, 2006

slang said:
i'm not bashing dave, e13, or IH at all, and thoroughly respect all the work put into their products (i run an e13 chainguide and love it) and have heard many many good things about the bikes, but i just find it interesting how the presence of dave in a thread will instantly turn the thread into a love-dave hate-the-haters thing.

I definately know how you feel.

biggins · Mar 12, 2006

slang said:
biggins said:

the bike industry is a hard one to survive in, and for them to place customer support in forums around the internet would be ridiculous. just because dave is a local on these boards doesnt mean you seem him everywhere else.

not only that, specialized is a HUGE company, esp. compared to IH. it would be far more professional for them to deal with customers either through shops, email, or phone. not that you cant do the same with IH, but posting here would probably get you a quicker response, therefore giving IH more of a local feel.

In canada, the only way to buy an IH localy was from sportchek. pretty ridiculous is you ask me.

i'm not bashing dave, e13, or IH at all, and thoroughly respect all the work put into their products (i run an e13 chainguide and love it) and have heard many many good things about the bikes, but i just find it interesting how the presence of dave in a thread will instantly turn the thread into a love-dave hate-the-haters thing.

Click to expand...

i am not turning this into a love hate issue. however if its so damn hard for a bike company to survive then why dont companies like specialized keep to the roots and the people that made them the mega-comapny they are now, the consumer. in todays society more and more consumers spend time researching major purposes online before they even set foot into a shop. seems to me like the smart thing to do would be to have a presence on-line. I couldnt care less if dave or todd came into this thread. my decision still stands behind iron horse.

Heavy C · Mar 12, 2006

slang said:
biggins said:

specialized is a HUGE company, esp. compared to IH. it would be far more professional for them to deal with customers either through shops, email, or phone. not that you cant do the same with IH, but posting here would probably get you a quicker response, therefore giving IH more of a local feel.

Click to expand...

All the more reason to support some of the smaller companies. I have always tried to buy local and from a smaller outfit whether it be a bike shop or bike company.

This industry can only get better with a larger number of players all pushing the design envelope and passionate about the sport we all enjoy.

Hell I just finished a 4 hr ride here in Squamish on my 7.7 and am totally jazzed on biking right now.

Bike feels amazing with a Fox 36 on the front btw.

Bicyclist · Mar 12, 2006

dw said:
Both the 7POINT and Demo 8 are built in Taiwan, within minutes of each other, and using materials, and forgings built by many of the exact same suppliers.

Dave

Yeah, but then why does the Demo utilize way more tube manipulation than that on a 7point?

Anyways, just because Vertical is built minutes from a boutique bike by a similar manufacturer doesn't put it in the same league.

ska todd · Mar 13, 2006

Grizzle said:
Dave - what about the customer service issues though?

Iron Horse is going thru a bit of a growth stage right now. We have literally doubled in sales as a company in the last 18 mos. Growth like this has necesitated bringing on a lot more staff including 3 new customer service reps, 10+ outside reps, 3 inside sales additional product dept staff, etc, etc. As Iron Horse continues to grow we will be confronted with new challenges and will do our best to step up to the plate.

-ska todd

Daver · Mar 13, 2006

dw said:
You have obviously never looked at a 7POINT. There are a lot of valid points that a person could make to support either bike one way or another, but this is not one. Both the 7POINT and Demo 8 are built in Taiwan, within minutes of each other, and using materials, and forgings built by many of the exact same suppliers.

Dave

Yes, but obviously theres an issue when every single 06 IH bike i have felt on shop floors (not to mention at the races) has play in the rear end. I can deal with it on a first year frame, but this stuff should have been sorted out by the factory, before the bikes were packaged and delivered to customers.

I loved the ride of my Sunday, it was amazing. But having to make up our own hardware because the ones that came stock (not to mention the ones that were sent out as replacements) still left us with the same up/down and side to side play as before is very disconcerting.

The IH customer service (here in australia at least) is good (if you can get your timing right so Kevin actually answers), but the fact that the bikes are not coming out in perfect working order is enough for several shops that i know and frequent to drop the entire marque.

However- the hardware issue had no bearing in me selling my Sunday, and had i not been offered a better (in my opinion) bike for the same money then i would still be riding (and loving) it. It's just sad that the bikes are earning themselves a bad reputation for reliability when they are substantially better than just about every other DH bike on the market.

jon-boy · Mar 13, 2006

I'll stick my opinion in here and it's more on how the bike rides....

I've just got a 7Point7 having come from an M1. I was looking for a bike that would suit the riding I do a little better, I mean an M1 is great at Whistler but riding it up and down (!) the north shore here in Vancouver was getting to be a chore. Anyway I also was looking at Demo8's and other more FR frames. I rode the Demo 8 and it felt quite similar to my M1, the way the bike took the bumps and stuff, the way it pedalled, all similar, it's a pretty slack frame too. The IH is quite different and has a really good feel when you're looking to pedal up/down/over stuff. For the riding I do, that's pretty important. If I'm up on a tech skinny, looking to put in a most subtle of forward motion, having a bike that'll respond to that is invaluable. The suspension is also really nice and plush on the rough stuff, it corners great too, seems like a lower, more centred COG. I've done some drops and that works great for me too, the suspension ramping nicely. I think the angles work well, I felt comfortable on the bike really quickly, the standover is huge and the bike feels really nice and nimble, great to throw around.

Sure I've spent more time on the IH than the demo8 but my impressions of the bikes were that the IH would suit me more and it does. I can't wait to ride it at Whistler, I think it'll totally kill it. I'm also enjoying the return to a single crown fork and a lower front end. I also like the bigger head tube junction area, it feels way stiffer in that aspect that my M1 did.

As for frame quality... to my eyes it's spot on. The frame alignment is a close to perfect as I've seen (I'm an engineer and ex-bikeshop mechanic), the rear end is stiff and I have no play (the bike is 2nd hand). As you can tell I'm a happy customer.

All I can say is, go ride the bikes and make your decision on how they feel for the kind of riding that you'll do. To be honest I don't think you'd be unhappy with either bike.

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