economics 101 - what something costs to make does not affect selling price, only whether to sell it or not. 
Single Pivots
- Thread starter erikkellison
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well first tings first is the design, craftsmanship, and the fact that they are relatively small companies would make them expensive. and i dont see how you can make this argument for just single pivots oranges and morewoods are priced quite relatively to other top end dh bikes out there and i think they carry the same level of design as well.erikkellison said:
your questions is so stupid its like asking why pay so much for a foes 2:1 its a single pivot just like walmart huffy.
binary visions said:
these hammers hit the nail on the head. this issue is ripe with economic issues, including diminishing marginal utility. the bullit is a good design. the cost to move up from a good design to a great design translates to a retail premium above and beyond the $/hour rate of the engineer multiplied by the number of extra hours spent on the the design.dante said:economics 101 - what something costs to make does not affect selling price, only whether to sell it or not.
the bullit is a relatively "mass production" design intened to give riders a wide range of riding options. this design is useable, but not ideal for faster racing conditions. the orange/morewood designs are better suited for racing conditions, but less than optimal for other types of "free-riding."
for racers who want to be as fast as they can be in race conditions, the price they are willing to pay for even slight advantages can be significant. this is also a smaller target population of customers, and thus smaller production runs. combine these two issues and you now have a limited supply and high demand. econ 101 will tell you the market price is where these two curves cross. throw in the fact that smaller production runs decrease the economies of scale the bullit has, and you can expect to tack on even more $$$.
Ahh but the huffy was made with slave labor vs american labor higher cost of doing business in the usa.More love goesinto the finished product, I would even say that the attention to details is what makes the difference in price and quality. my 2 cents
money can't buy love, but that won't stop people from throwing money at it.OGDMFG said:
ditto.dante said:economics 101 - what something costs to make does not affect selling price, only whether to sell it or not.
I agree that the number of pivots doesn't/shouldn't affect the cost of a bike - but, I bet a lot more engineering work and design went into the Ironhorse Sunday or Demo 8 (suspension design, FEA, etc.) then lets say a Morewood Izumu, or an Orange 22x, or a SC Bullit for that matter.
Sure, when you buy a Morewood or Orange, you are paying for a premium brand name, and for a premium 'race' bike, but that doesnt mean it is not rediculously overpriced, especially when comparing to how much more work DW put into his designs, and how much the frames he designed go for.
-MV
overpricedMikeT said:
the indicator of value, and thus price, is not the effort that goes into the design. instead, it is the result of the production. if dw spends the rest of his life coming up with a new design that takes more thought than any design ever in the history of man, but it doesn't get you across the finish line any faster, then i will not pay more for it just because of the design effort. if some no-name stumbles onto some basic single-pivot design that happens to have a magical combination of traits that gets me across the finish line in half the time, i will go into debt to get my hands on it.
Look, if you guys want to turn this into a nitpicking discussion of whether or not an Orange is worth its specific sticker price, that's fine.MikeT said:
But let's make it really, really clear here:
There are reasons these frames cost more than a Bullit. The reasons have nothing at all to do with the number of pivots. The reason has to do with the build quality, features, and design efforts (which includes geometry). Those three things can vary wildly from frame to frame and have nothing whatsoever to do with the suspension design.
Suspension design can affect price, but it does not determine it. A single pivot can be better made, better designed, and have better features than the most exotic suspension design ever conceived - the existance of an exotic suspension design doesn't mean the frame is worth more money.
Okay, now you guys can go back to arguing about the cost of the frames and if you think it's worth it
I wasn't refering to 'fsr vs vpp vs single pivot.. etc', when i say 'suspension design' I mean how much work and testing went into the DESIGN of the system - it's characteristics: there are so many elements to a suspension system (rising/falling rates, squat, wheelpath, etc), and usually in a multi-pivot system, those charactersitcs can be tuned better- again depending on how much work you do(e.g. IH sunday vs. kona stinky)binary visions said:
Brainy visions in your equation again you overlook marketing budget in cost.
Bascically the bottom line is they'll sell them for the balance cost of how much they can get away with and how many they can produce.Mainly though how much they can get away with.
A bullit is not lacking anywhere near as much perormance as suggested,cost is possibly cheaper due to numbers made,but I think you're really having a lend of yourselves up there on those horses to think a tin can Orwood is that much better than a tubed Bullit.Look at the old Foes that came in tube or monocoque. The 150mm rear end is possibly the biggest contributor to the bullits inferiority. Yes the box section is stiffer for a given weight and I'm not saying it's not,but realistically if the tubes that much cheaper and you invested the cash elswhere on the bike would the results not be as benificial.Yes angles etc play a part in the equation but the geometry angles are possibly not that far off ,or cheaply modifyable on the bullets shock mount addaptor thingy(if it still has one)anyway.Whats the Bullets BB height? I think it's in keeping with Santa cruses ideals for DH that Peaty etc is running(if not on customs).
Gee how much have Peats times changed from going from one sus design to the extreme other end of the spectrum.
Out of curiosity what sized bearings do Bullits,22x and morewoods run and how far apart are they?
Bascically the bottom line is they'll sell them for the balance cost of how much they can get away with and how many they can produce.Mainly though how much they can get away with.
A bullit is not lacking anywhere near as much perormance as suggested,cost is possibly cheaper due to numbers made,but I think you're really having a lend of yourselves up there on those horses to think a tin can Orwood is that much better than a tubed Bullit.Look at the old Foes that came in tube or monocoque. The 150mm rear end is possibly the biggest contributor to the bullits inferiority. Yes the box section is stiffer for a given weight and I'm not saying it's not,but realistically if the tubes that much cheaper and you invested the cash elswhere on the bike would the results not be as benificial.Yes angles etc play a part in the equation but the geometry angles are possibly not that far off ,or cheaply modifyable on the bullets shock mount addaptor thingy(if it still has one)anyway.Whats the Bullets BB height? I think it's in keeping with Santa cruses ideals for DH that Peaty etc is running(if not on customs).
Gee how much have Peats times changed from going from one sus design to the extreme other end of the spectrum.
Out of curiosity what sized bearings do Bullits,22x and morewoods run and how far apart are they?
I always live by this rule :
(If i feel it's worth it to ME,i'll buy it.)
Meaning for example-if i'm dying of dehydration in the desert,i'll pay $100 for a cold can of iced tea & it would be worth it to me !
Or a Morewood for more cash than a Bullit;i don't think about the Bullit anymore or any other frame--just if that Morewood is worth it to me to have.
Plus all companies are making $ at all price points i suppose..
(If i feel it's worth it to ME,i'll buy it.)
Meaning for example-if i'm dying of dehydration in the desert,i'll pay $100 for a cold can of iced tea & it would be worth it to me !
Or a Morewood for more cash than a Bullit;i don't think about the Bullit anymore or any other frame--just if that Morewood is worth it to me to have.
Plus all companies are making $ at all price points i suppose..
Besides the cost which seems to be the main theme in this thread,
I feel it comes down you either like single pivots or you don't,
same with multi pivot bikes also.
What's the good buying a cheaper bike that you don't really like
but it was cheaper, you'll always be unhappy with it and your riding will show it.
I bought my 224 for the main reason that I like them and love their
simplicity and easy maintenance, and if I buy something I'm really happy with, my riding will show this.
IMO, It's all about your riding enjoyment not the bucks.
I feel it comes down you either like single pivots or you don't,
same with multi pivot bikes also.
What's the good buying a cheaper bike that you don't really like
but it was cheaper, you'll always be unhappy with it and your riding will show it.
I bought my 224 for the main reason that I like them and love their
simplicity and easy maintenance, and if I buy something I'm really happy with, my riding will show this.
IMO, It's all about your riding enjoyment not the bucks.
The ONLY downside to Bullits (same as all single pivots) is the non-stop whine coming from all the Haters out there. :love: (louder than a CK)
To respond to pricing:
Bullits aren't too expensive. Why: 1) They have a great crash policy and excellent CS (IME) to backup your purchase. 2) You are paying for a frame that will perform and likely never need replacement no matter what you do to it.
Morewood and Orange can probhably justify the cost due to supply/demand/better materials... I'd say better design but the bikes have different intended use. One is a brawler and the other a fencer. (still I'd like a Ndiza ST if anyone has one for sale)
just a good pic:
To respond to pricing:
Bullits aren't too expensive. Why: 1) They have a great crash policy and excellent CS (IME) to backup your purchase. 2) You are paying for a frame that will perform and likely never need replacement no matter what you do to it.
Morewood and Orange can probhably justify the cost due to supply/demand/better materials... I'd say better design but the bikes have different intended use. One is a brawler and the other a fencer. (still I'd like a Ndiza ST if anyone has one for sale)
just a good pic:
Attachments
I would just like to say that I absolutely LOVE my bullit 
marketing budget is a qestionable factor. you would think more marketing = higher cost = higher bike price. however, most compaines with higher marketing budgets are selling more units and get economies of scale on the production side. i cannot say for certain how much one offsets the other, but i am willing to bet that the lower production cost per unit balances out the marketing budget.no skid marks said:
that's what good marketing is trying to achieve, gain higher volume through marketing; if marketing is mearly raising your overhead with no net gain like No Skids suggests, then theres no point in the marketing at all or the campaign is an utter failiure (No Skids needs some buisness classes i think :teacher: ).mandown said:
Of course the savings from huge volumes isnt always passed down, some brands sell themselves as mid to high end wares with price tags to match even if their actual cost is exceptionally lower. Of course, thats called a success story, or boutique fashion and soft drinks....
no doubt. boutique stuff is a tough market. a better market is "mass-market stuff that people think is boutique." look at redbull. why do they get for two american dollars? a mass-produced/marketed soda that costs as much to produce as a can of coke but with less marketing cost. GOLD MINE! how about porsche? in beverly hills, they have a store where you can buy anything you want with the porsche name on it - from laptops to golf clubs to toasters. FRIGGIN TOASTERS PEOPLE!!! how much you might ask? $200 for this baby
is the toast done any faster? no. does it taste any better? doubt it. all you get is a target level product with a cool name badge. same as their laptops. it is generic crap with a good name. the power of branding is awesome.
the price you pay for most products has little to do with the cost of production, and much to do with the elasticity of the consumer demand for a product at a price-point. why does coke cost what it costs and not $0.25 more? the marginal drop in sales from consumers who consider that extra quarter a deal-breaker will be greater than the added income from the higher sales price.
is the toast done any faster? no. does it taste any better? doubt it. all you get is a target level product with a cool name badge. same as their laptops. it is generic crap with a good name. the power of branding is awesome.
the price you pay for most products has little to do with the cost of production, and much to do with the elasticity of the consumer demand for a product at a price-point. why does coke cost what it costs and not $0.25 more? the marginal drop in sales from consumers who consider that extra quarter a deal-breaker will be greater than the added income from the higher sales price.
I think no skid marks failed Econ. 101
God i love marketing people,put a brand name on it and jack up the price.
plus i bet they can only take premium breads too....mandown said:
zedro said:
7 grain or higher ONLY.
I don't think he failed, he just isn't expressing the concepts in textbook-friendly terms.
Santa Cruz sells the Bullit at the price that enough people are willing to pay for it so that their profit/bike x # of bikes sold = maximum (profit). He adds that he thinks that they tend to increase the MSRP ("how much they can get away with") with less concern for how that will adversely affect the number of units sold, though what he doesn't realize is that if Santa Cruz's profit was adversely affected by a prohibitively high MSRP, then they would lower MSRP to increase profit. He is probably just feeling hurt by the high MSRP on most bikes. His understanding is also limited by the fact that he thinks that they are limited on production ("how much they can produce"). He doesn't realize that if the demand increases, Santa Cruz will either increase production or increase MSRP (not usually convenient given no major changes to the frame), and yet he thinks that Santa Cruz will just raise their price.
I don't think he failed, I think he got a C.
Meansnoskidmarks said:
Santa Cruz sells the Bullit at the price that enough people are willing to pay for it so that their profit/bike x # of bikes sold = maximum (profit). He adds that he thinks that they tend to increase the MSRP ("how much they can get away with") with less concern for how that will adversely affect the number of units sold, though what he doesn't realize is that if Santa Cruz's profit was adversely affected by a prohibitively high MSRP, then they would lower MSRP to increase profit. He is probably just feeling hurt by the high MSRP on most bikes. His understanding is also limited by the fact that he thinks that they are limited on production ("how much they can produce"). He doesn't realize that if the demand increases, Santa Cruz will either increase production or increase MSRP (not usually convenient given no major changes to the frame), and yet he thinks that Santa Cruz will just raise their price.
I don't think he failed, I think he got a C.
Oh, and the deal with the Porsche stuff is that a lot of it (I think all of it) has been designed in all or part by Porsche designers. That toaster isn't available without the Porsche label on it because it was designed by them. Same goes for most of their stuff. You're paying for the artwork factor, not the functionality factor.
then he should just ride his bullit that he thinks is so great and quit crying about how much the other kids are paying for their toyserikkellison said:
doubt it. i find it hard to believe the porsche CEO said "lets take some of our engineers and put them to work on this lucrative toaster project which will push the envelope of technology and help our cars win races and performance awards." at best, the marketing department commissioned a kitchenware company to build it for them. what the hell to auto engineers know about toasting bread anyway? i wouldn't buy a toothbrush from intel, or a pair of shoes from a company that makes sunglasses... ooops.erikkellison said:
First of all, who said anything about engineers? Second, who said that it was solely Porsche that was responsible for making these auxilliary products? Porsche designers + flexible manufacturers = Porsche products. Why? They make money off the endeavor. Why not? They made a name for themselves, and now they are continuing to do so. Check out www.porsche-design.com. You really think those are completely outsourced, at best?
People pay the money for that stuff because of the artwork factor. Something I don't see necessary with bikes, but I am definitely a function-over-fashion kind of person.
And noskidmarks wasn't crying, and neither am I. I can't speak for him, but I was curious as to why some people pay so much more for similar bikes. And I think I've gotten my answer: better craftmanship, reliability, lighter weight (functionally comparing), more refined engineering/design, and some level of artwork. But, for me, since the Bullit was good enough craftsmanship, reliable enough and light enough, I would be paying solely for the slight relocation of pivots, the slight change in angles and lengths, and the art factor - I think I'll stay away from boutique until I get a new job and can afford to support the arts.
People pay the money for that stuff because of the artwork factor. Something I don't see necessary with bikes, but I am definitely a function-over-fashion kind of person.
And noskidmarks wasn't crying, and neither am I. I can't speak for him, but I was curious as to why some people pay so much more for similar bikes. And I think I've gotten my answer: better craftmanship, reliability, lighter weight (functionally comparing), more refined engineering/design, and some level of artwork. But, for me, since the Bullit was good enough craftsmanship, reliable enough and light enough, I would be paying solely for the slight relocation of pivots, the slight change in angles and lengths, and the art factor - I think I'll stay away from boutique until I get a new job and can afford to support the arts.
You seem to know a bit about bikes, granted, but I was curious, have you ever tried to build anything?All these designs take a butt load of money to refine,alot of the costs of these higher end frames is mainly to cover the overhead of the small manufacturers, even when factor in the price the profit margins are still quite small, compared to the bigger companies that are producing in the taiwan/china they can sell their bikes for less with greater volume.
I am rambling after all they are just frames. get what you like and can afford.
I am rambling after all they are just frames. get what you like and can afford.
Go pick up an econ 101 textbook and read the chapter on monopoly or Marginal cost-marginal revenue pricing. Whichever you wanna call it.
you diderikkellison said:
erikkellison said:
good for them. i have no problem with this.erikkellison said:
yes. porsche is known for making cars. not toasters. not golf clubs. not luggage. not toothbrushes. "porsche designers" is code for "the people we paid to make this stuff for us." the porsche company has final say over the final marketed product. however, the people that build the cars are not the same people who design the tchotchke. if you expect that toaster was conceived in the mind of or even touched by the hands of the the people who design the cars, you are dreaming.erikkellison said:
i have no problem with this. obviously you don't either. i am happy you got your answer.erikkellison said:
supporting the arts - the american dream. to be able to afford things that are not that much better, but make you believe that you are superhuman if you own them
i think when you find you can get a new job and afford to support the arts, you probably will. i have much more expensive bikes now than i did when i first started riding. i cannot say how much better my riding is because of the equipment. it is just as much the fact that i have a few more years of riding under my belt. if i did not have the disposable income, i would be on a crappy bike riding and having fun and dreaming of a bigger better bike. if i had more disposable income, i would buy new toys for the fun of owning them. that is the joy of "disposable income." after all, i am an american!
Apparently I struck a vein.
Designers are not engineers. Designers are more responsible for the artistic side, while engineers are more responsible for actually making the product work. At least that's what the connotations of the words say.
I didn't say or imply that it was the same person that designs the cars that does the other Porsche stuff. It is the same company though, hence the name. And while they became known for making cars, and that is still their primary business, they are becoming to be known for other things as well. I'll bet you money that a lot of people that design the cars also own a lot of the Porsche designed products. Why not, company pride and all? Heck, it was probably your buddy down the hall that designed the pen you're using to write notes to your supervisor regarding the redesign of x part. Who cares if it was manufactured elsewhere, it's still a Porsche-conceived, Porsche-designed product. Anyway, didn't Porsche have their engines made by Volkswagen for a number of years?
Designers are not engineers. Designers are more responsible for the artistic side, while engineers are more responsible for actually making the product work. At least that's what the connotations of the words say.
I didn't say or imply that it was the same person that designs the cars that does the other Porsche stuff. It is the same company though, hence the name. And while they became known for making cars, and that is still their primary business, they are becoming to be known for other things as well. I'll bet you money that a lot of people that design the cars also own a lot of the Porsche designed products. Why not, company pride and all? Heck, it was probably your buddy down the hall that designed the pen you're using to write notes to your supervisor regarding the redesign of x part. Who cares if it was manufactured elsewhere, it's still a Porsche-conceived, Porsche-designed product. Anyway, didn't Porsche have their engines made by Volkswagen for a number of years?
not really. i am just bored at work and this is a fun discussion.
i know you did not say or imply it was the same person building cars and toasters. however the name "porsche-design" is a bit on the north side of subtle. my point is that the "designers" are just people from another company they paid to create a product porsche could put thier name on.
good point on the engine issue. i thought of that earlier.
i know you did not say or imply it was the same person building cars and toasters. however the name "porsche-design" is a bit on the north side of subtle. my point is that the "designers" are just people from another company they paid to create a product porsche could put thier name on.
good point on the engine issue. i thought of that earlier.
Short history lesson: Ferdinand Porsche designed the VW (there was only what later became known as "the beetle" then). His design was picked up by the Nazi propaganda machine and touted as the "peoples wagon" ("Volkswagen"). VW also made the Nazi equivalent of the Jeep, later marketed as the VW "Thing". Lots of early VW ads feature swastikas all over the place.erikkellison said:
Did Volkswagen make Porsche engines - absolutely. The companies are so close it is hardly a meaningful distinction. Maybe you were thinking of the 914 from the 1970's that shared an engine (albeit tuned differently) with the VW bus? (Something similar is going on between the Audi TT and the new VW Beetle.)
More to the point - why are you riding a Bullit when Haro makes an nearly identical single pivot frame?
Okay okay. I got my concept lost here. I meant you are paying more due to the fact that it had been glorified through marketing and sponsorship with virtually no actual proof of a performance gain or higher standard. EG 22x Vs Bullet. Yes you are paying for the marketing investment even if the profits are not needed to pay for it.
The balance I spoke of and I said how many they cold make was meant to read as their budget. So to refphrase,they'll charge as much as they can get away with providing they can supply them(afford to produce them before profits are re absorbed)Yeti might be a good example for this equation although they may have tipped the scale to far.
But most importantly they'll charge what they can get away with(and the marketing they spent on it will raise this price,so in effect your paying for the marketing(in theory).
Yawn.
The balance I spoke of and I said how many they cold make was meant to read as their budget. So to refphrase,they'll charge as much as they can get away with providing they can supply them(afford to produce them before profits are re absorbed)Yeti might be a good example for this equation although they may have tipped the scale to far.
But most importantly they'll charge what they can get away with(and the marketing they spent on it will raise this price,so in effect your paying for the marketing(in theory).
Yawn.
or when you can get a fancy linkage frame for $600rigidhack said:
thanks for the history lesson.
http://www.adrants.com/2005/05/austrian-wants-credit-for-vw-logo.php
yup. it is called elasticity. demand is not just a function of how many people want a product, but how intensely they want it in terms of willingness to plunk down the benjamins.no skid marks said:
Good G!!!!!! This tread is still going? Who cares about how much your bike cost or how many pivots is on it. Just go ride it and have fun doing it.
And by the way I love my single pivot
Peace Out!!!
And by the way I love my single pivot
Peace Out!!!
I got a brand new Bullit 2 years ago for $800 shipped. That's why I roll a Bullit. It works for me - light enough to pedal locally yet enough travel and strong enough for Whistler. I don't ride a Haro for the same reason I don't ride a Sette. I am skeptical of their build quality, afraid that they will fail on me, and I don't see the point in switching if the grass is green enough. I would switch to a VP-Free, but I just got a 135mm King rear hub, so it might be a while yet.
On my way to a ride right now!
On my way to a ride right now!
the only other thing i can say about the bullit vs. ??? single pivot is my bud's experience going from a bullit to a turner DHR resulted in the statement "i thought the bullit was a DH bike, until i rode the turner." his whistler experience was very different that year.
why are you all arguing? Bullits are out, Iron Horse single pivs are in....
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